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Minor Maou Gakuin rework

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Dark_Soul20189

Dark_Soul20189

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I am currently going through profiles looking over undeserved Regeneration and one of the once I stumbled on was this.

Regeneration (High-Godly with <Agronemt>. With <Agronemt>, Anos can reform himself even after his source has been destroyed[13]),
Click to expand...
Now why is this a problem?

Well that is simple to answer, the requirements for Regeneration goes as follows

Regeneration, often referred to as a healing factor, is the ability to passively heal oneself from wounds at an accelerated rate, with many characters proving capable of regenerating from wounds that would be lethal to normal humans.
Click to expand...
Now take a look at healing

The ability to actively relieve or eliminate the symptoms and effects of any disease, pathological condition, violation of life, to normalize the disturbed vital processes, which ultimately leads to recovery and restoration of health. This ability can be used both on oneself and on others (as opposed to Regeneration, which is passive and only targets the user).
Click to expand...
Now let's look at what the scans for the regeneration says. (This is Anos explaining to us how the combination of spells work, that can regenerate even a broken source)

The origin spell, Argonnemt. By using Jerga's attack and my source as an origin, my source could be returned to the state before receiving the attack. The spell normally couldn't be used by whose source already ad disappeared, but I'd prepared beforehand by using Revide to send Argonemt into the future.
Click to expand...
As we can clearly see in this scan, Anos ""regeneration"" is not passive, It is a combination of multiple spells that need to be used before hand. From my comprehension it goes like this

Choosing a "source" from where the spell will be activated from, casting "Argonemt" to be able to return the damaged from before the attack to regenerate, and lastly casting Revide to send it into the future. meaning that it will activate when it is necessary.

Even if 1 or 2 of these steps were to be skipped, you still needed to be able to cast the magic, meaning that it would still not be passive.


Another argument for why it is healing instead of Regenration can be seen here, it was sent by a guy trying to defend their regeneration.

We can clearly see how Anos uses Argonemt to Heal Nosaligia's source.

Porposals

Proposal 1

Healing (High Godly ; With <Argonemt> the user can activate a spell that regenerates even a damaged source, but it needs to be activated by the use of a Origin. the spell can either be precasted with <Revide> or have someone else cast it.)

-Weakness, it can't be casted if the source has already disappeared.

Proposal 2

Healing (High-Godly ; With <Argonemt> the user can heal even a damage source by activating or casting it)

-weakness. Agronemt Can't be casted with a source that has disappeared, so it needs to be casted by someone else or be pre casted and sent to be activated at a later date with <Revide>. The spell also needs a source to activate, and that being is usually the attack itself.

Proposal 3
-We discuss the new description for the ability in the comment section.

(if you have anything you wanna improve on the descriptions feel free to help out)

Conclusion

Regeneration that was gained from "Agronemt" will become "healing" , regardless if it's combined with Revide or not. Due to not being passive. To further prove it is not regeneration, but healing it can also be used on other beings.


Agree - @Damage3245, @TWILIGHT-OP, @Planck69 (Conditions need to be made clear on profile), @Mr. Bambu, @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara, @Deagonx,

Neutral - @TheGreatJedi13, @Tatsumi504 (Essentially, godly healing isn't a thing, resurrection fits better which is already in the profile, keep the description as it was), @Reiner04,

Disagree - @EldemadeDityjon, @Godsatoshi23, @Dereck03, @AlipheeseXIV,

(Staff votes will be in bold)




Notes

I can't believe I have to say this, but pre casting spells dose not make them active.... Nor dose activating this spell as the source is being damaged/destroyed....

Let's not get into what tier of regeneration/healing this is, my only goal in this thread is to change it from regeneration to healing.

The options look a bit different then they would do on the site since inserting scans and references works a bit different here.

The changing from regeneration to Healing, has both cons and pros, So it isn't really a debunk or upgrade, but rather just a rework.

I will improve the the arguments and description alongside the CRT's process. This also include the quality of the post.
 
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we've had a long conversation about this before
the supposed healing was also discussed
but afaik healing wasn't expanded to have High Godly ratings and such before and they settled with regeneration to convey the idea more + with the argument that it ultimately passively happens because of how Anos uses it which sends it into the future that happens on its own without him needing to activate it anymore unlike others who can only cast Argoment without Rivide.
Whether that should be considered passive or not is up to the evaluators. But I strongly believe it should be considered passive because Anos can send it anywhere in the future from the past which makes it a weird immeasurable speed castable ability yet also not passive by technicality

Either way works fine for me since Healing is expanded on
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
we've had a long conversation about this before
the supposed healing was also discussed
but afaik healing wasn't expanded to have High Godly ratings and such before and they settled with regeneration to convey the idea more + with the argument that it ultimately passively happens because of how Anos uses it which sends it into the future that happens on its own without him needing to activate it anymore unlike others who can only cast Argoment without Rivide.
Whether that should be considered passive or not is up to the evaluators. But I strongly believe it should be considered passive because Anos can send it anywhere in the future from the past which makes it a weird immeasurable speed castable ability yet also not passive by technicality

Either way works fine for me since Healing is expanded on
Click to expand...
I had some debates regarding this with a few other vs battle scalers, and a admin. We concluded since it needs to be casted/activated in other words was not always active. We did not think it was a passive abilitiy. Just like how something that can be turned on and off is not passive.

Either way, I put you in Neutral

Thanks to everyone that has inputed so Far.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
This is a slippery slope but I digress. Especially considering Reiatsu and how it can be turned off manually but is generally passive. but that's beside this CRT so I won't pursue this
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Yeah, that is defently for another CRT. Since i don't wanna derail this one. (I shouldn't have brought it up)
 
Anos doesn't send that thing to the future on every occasion. If a new attack is landed on him, he would send the source to the future. If the attack he already experienced, the spell would activate on its own.

Example: Anos' Source would passively get regenerated thanks to already getting stabbed by Evansmana; he doesn't send Source to the future in this case.

Anyway, OP brought up half the context, leaving out the other half. So I disagree with the thread. I ain't gonna keep on for long debate. So don't bother trying to reply back; I'm unfollowing this thread.
 
Fixxed said:
Will take a look, but i forgot how this ability actually work honestly
Click to expand...
Read this for simple explanation on how it works.
EldemadeDityjon said:
Anos doesn't send that thing to the future on every occasion. If a new attack is landed on him, he would send the source to the future. If the attack he already experienced, the spell would activate on its own.

Example: Anos' Source would passively get regenerated thanks to already getting stabbed by Evansmana; he doesn't send Source to the future in this case.

Anyway, OP brought up half the context, leaving out the other half. So I disagree with the thread. I ain't gonna keep on for long debate. So don't bother trying to reply back; I'm unfollowing this thread.
Click to expand...
 
Firstly this argument between passive and active as a denominator gor what is healing and regeneration is completely stupid.

Will technique which promotes cellular division, increasing body's natural recovery rate also be denoted as healing because it isn't passive? If a healing technique is always active or works passively, do we then also say it is regeneration and not healing solely based on the fact it is passive?
Healing in the first place works on the premise that there's something to heal you can't heal nothing after all even from it's own description
The ability to actively relieve or eliminate the symptoms and effects of any disease, pathological condition, violation of life, to normalize the disturbed vital processes, which ultimately leads to recovery and restoration of health
Click to expand...
Essentially restoring what is still there.
Point is there are other distinctions one can use to differentiate between healing and regeneration besides activation conditions.

Before I get attacked in the usual fashion, this isn't a matter of disagreeing or agreeing as the OP noted it's neither an upgrade nor a downgrade, my entire issue lies in how stupid it is to differentiate between healing and regeneration based on whether it's passive or active. It's mind boggling to me how "low-godly, mid-godly, high-godly healing" can genuinely be thought to be a thing, it's wrong on a fundamental level. It's a brain rot i refuse to acknowledge or take part in, one is better off dubbing it as plain resurrection (any godly regeneration is essentially resurrection).

Secondly, I take offence at the attempt to reword the description from someone who I can tell hasn't read the series. The claim that revide is needed most especially when there's barely any other normal (not a god who controls time) time manipulator besides Anos and they can only manipulate time for a few seconds at best which makes saying they choose when to activate it ludicrous.

Essentially, godly healing isn't a thing, resurrection fits better which is already in the profile, keep the description as it was. That will be all
 
For regeneration I think it doesn't necessarily needs to be passive, according to resurrection page:

When in the hands of a character who uses resurrection on themselves, giving them some degree of Immortality, this ability often co-exists with Regeneration, though the process can take some time. This ability is not to be confused with Necromancy, the ability to raise the dead as undead beings, but it also covers Reincarnation, characters who, upon death, eventually reincarnate the bodies of others - not as a mechanic of the verse, but through their own powers.
Click to expand...

From this, we can infer that resurrection can coexist with regeneration, and it doesn't have to be passive. The phrase 'resurrection on themselves' implies that individuals must perform it using their own abilities or through their power

I think it can be co-existed with resurrection and regeneration. So, I think keeping it as either resurrection or regeneration would be better because healing doesn't makes sense to me.

Ex: In this scan when Avos source is destroyed and she immediately regenerated through <Agronemt>
 
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i can't believe i just noticed this now
why the hell is regeneration the ability to passively heal oneself??
that is ridiculous
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Firstly this argument between passive and active as a denominator gor what is healing and regeneration is completely stupid.

Will technique which promotes cellular division, increasing body's natural recovery rate also be denoted as healing because it isn't passive? If a healing technique is always active or works passively, do we then also say it is regeneration and not healing solely based on the fact it is passive?
Healing in the first place works on the premise that there's something to heal you can't heal nothing after all even from it's own description
Essentially restoring what is still there.
Point is there are other distinctions one can use to differentiate between healing and regeneration besides activation conditions.

Before I get attacked in the usual fashion, this isn't a matter of disagreeing or agreeing as the OP noted it's neither an upgrade nor a downgrade, my entire issue lies in how stupid it is to differentiate between healing and regeneration based on whether it's passive or active. It's mind boggling to me how "low-godly, mid-godly, high-godly healing" can genuinely be thought to be a thing, it's wrong on a fundamental level. It's a brain rot i refuse to acknowledge or take part in, one is better off dubbing it as plain resurrection (any godly regeneration is essentially resurrection).

Secondly, I take offence at the attempt to reword the description from someone who I can tell hasn't read the series. The claim that revide is needed most especially when there's barely any other normal (not a god who controls time) time manipulator besides Anos and they can only manipulate time for a few seconds at best which makes saying they choose when to activate it ludicrous.

Essentially, godly healing isn't a thing, resurrection fits better which is already in the profile, keep the description as it was. That will be all
Click to expand...
As obvious is it It has been a long time since I read Maou Gakuin (2-3 years ago to be exact)

I tried to bring some options to what the new ability description could be.... Natrually since I am by far the best from it I didn't expect it to be that great, but still wanted to try my best... So I apologise for making a bad examples, If you Guys would be willing to help out with a better description I would be extremly thankful.

Lastly, I will put you in "Neutral, with the comment "Essentially, godly healing isn't a thing, resurrection fits better which is already in the profile, keep the description as it was"

Is that alright?

(My english is bad so most of the time i spend here will be to try to get proper English arguemnts with somewhat decent phrasing/grammer...)


Also, thank everyone so far helping with the discussion!
 
Dark_Soul20189 said:
As obvious is it It has been a long time since I read Maou Gakuin (2-3 years ago to be exact)

I tried to bring some options to what the new ability description could be.... Natrually since I am by far the best from it I didn't expect it to be that great, but still wanted to try my best... So I apologise for making a bad examples, If you Guys would be willing to help out with a better description I would be extremly thankful.
Click to expand...
We're currently limited by translations so it's better to leave the description as it is. All those conditions eventually stop to matter at all when one uses the spell
Dark_Soul20189 said:
Lastly, I will put you in "Neutral, with the comment "Essentially, godly healing isn't a thing, resurrection fits better which is already in the profile, keep the description as it was"

Is that alright?

(My english is bad so most of the time i spend here will be to try to get proper English arguemnts with somewhat decent phrasing/grammer...)


Also, thank everyone so far helping with the discussion!
Click to expand...
That's fine with me
 
Godsatoshi23 said:
For regeneration I think it doesn't necessarily needs to be passive, according to resurrection page:



From this, we can infer that resurrection can coexist with regeneration, and it doesn't have to be passive. The phrase 'resurrection on themselves' implies that individuals must perform it using their own abilities or through their power

I think it can be co-existed with resurrection and regeneration. So, I think keeping it as both resurrection and regeneration would be better because healing doesn't makes sense to me.

Ex: In this scan when Avos source is destroyed and she immediately regenerated through <Agronemt>
Click to expand...
@Dark_Soul20189 Btw you can add me to disagree for changing it to healing for the reason above.
 
Dark_Soul20189 said:
As we can clearly see in this scan, Anos ""regeneration"" is not passive, It is a combination of multiple spells that need to be used before hand. From my comprehension it goes like this
Click to expand...
?

Regeneration doesn't have to be passive? I can see the arguments for high-godly resurrection, but I don't understand how this is healing.

You can put me in disagree, but you don't have to.

Edit: So apparently regeneration needs to be passive according to the regeneration page. Never noticed that tbqh. Regardless I still think there is better argument for this being high-godly resurrection than healing.
 
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TWILIGHT-OP said:
Proposal looks good, but at some degree healing becomes regeneration and for the case of (high goldy) healing sounds off, so its better if we can use it as regeneration.
Click to expand...
Pretty much, The dfferents it will make is that it is no longer considered "passive" and can be used on others. Both are more acraute from the scans I have seen, and my knowledge from the series.
 
Seems like a combination of healing, resurrection, and immortality type 4 all being high-godly (since the rules for Immortality types 2, 3, 4, and 8 state that the level of healing needs to be listed) to me.

Conditional on the spells being cast before then, as stated in the OP, but still.
 
Dark_Soul20189 said:
Pretty much, The dfferents it will make is that it is no longer considered "passive" and can be used on others. Both are more acraute from the scans I have seen, and my knowledge from the series.
Click to expand...
I talked with DarkGrath, she said it would be more appropriate to keep it as resurrection (high godly) instead of healing.

Healing page only talks about symptoms, diseases to fatal injuries. And no where it talked about healing someone if they killed or completely gotten destroyed.
 
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Godsatoshi23 said:
I talked with DarkGrath, he said it would be more appropriate to keep it as resurrection (high godly) instead of healing.

Healing page only talks about symptoms, diseases to fatal injuries. And no where it talked about healing someone if they killed or completely gotten destroyed.
Click to expand...
DarkGrath is a she btw just letting you know
 
If I were to make a change, I think it would be easier to put it as resurrection (or resurrection/regeneration), since it's not healing anything, since there's nothing to heal in the first place.
 
I've been asked by a few people about this thread by now. I don't have the time presently to examine the context and thus evaluate the thread, so I will not be voting. But I did want to offer my thoughts on the questions around resurrection, healing, and regeneration.

The important difference between regeneration and healing is that the former is a passive ability and the latter is an active ability:
Regeneration, often referred to as a healing factor, is the ability to passively heal oneself from wounds at an accelerated rate, with many characters proving capable of regenerating from wounds that would be lethal to normal humans.
Click to expand...
[Healing is] the ability to actively relieve or eliminate the symptoms and effects of any disease, pathological condition, violation of life, to normalize the disturbed vital processes, which ultimately leads to recovery and restoration of health. This ability can be used both on oneself and on others (as opposed to Regeneration, which is passive and only targets the user).
Click to expand...

Resurrection muddies this understanding a bit, because of this section here:
When in the hands of a character who uses resurrection on themselves, giving them some degree of Immortality, this ability often co-exists with Regeneration, though the process can take some time. This ability is not to be confused with Necromancy, the ability to raise the dead as undead beings, but it also covers Reincarnation, characters who, upon death, eventually reincarnate the bodies of others - not as a mechanic of the verse, but through their own powers.
Click to expand...

So a natural question from this would be - if someone has the power to resurrect themselves after, say, a decapitation, and in the process they regenerate back their head, is that just resurrection? Or is it also regeneration, or is it also healing?

My understanding is that this is what is meant by resurrection often 'co-existing' with regeneration; that, even if regenerating their head would only occurs if they activate their resurrection, this would still be considered a 'passive' component of the ability and thus regeneration instead of healing.

So if someone has 'died' and they bring themselves back to life, that's resurrection. If someone loses some part of their form and passively gains it back, that's regeneration. If someone loses some part of their form and actively gets it back, that's healing. And if someone has died and they bring themselves back to life, with their their lost parts of their form naturally coming back in the process, that would be resurrection and regeneration.

Make of that what you will. I'll restate - I'm not voting - don't put me down in a category based on your interpretation of my words. I'm too busy to even know what this thread is really about. But since I've gotten numerous private questions about this, I thought I should rephrase it here for further comprehension.
 
Yeah, It is most liklkey a combination of healing and ressurection or just healing depending on how you interiptied it. Either way I will likley be creating a staff thread about How healing works, Since I noticed how many people didn't know the difference between it and regeneration.... Either way that will take time.

Either way, Thank you everyone that inputs in this thread!
 
Dark_Soul20189 said:
Yeah, It is most liklkey a combination of healing and ressurection or just healing depending on how you interiptied it. Either way I will likley be creating a staff thread about How healing works, Since I noticed how many people didn't know the difference between it and regeneration.... Either way that will take time.

Either way, Thank you everyone that inputs in this thread!
Click to expand...
Could you have a staff member tag me when you do or send me the link? Hopefully I'll be free to participate cause denoting healing and regen by passive and active is frankly dumb, like I said before, a passive healing ability isn't regen just cause it's passive
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Could you have a staff member tag me when you do or send me the link? Hopefully I'll be free to participate cause denoting healing and regen by passive and active is frankly dumb, like I said before, a passive healing ability isn't regen just cause it's passive
Click to expand...
Will do.
 
Was asked to comment, seems clear enough. If it's a spell that actively needs to be used, it's Healing and should be listed as such. As with everything, it should be elaborated upon in the profile to explain the specifics as necessary.
 
Planck69 said:
I think Healing works for this. So long as the conditions are made clear on the profile.
Click to expand...
Godly healing shouldn't be a thing, even just rolling the words off your tongue should set off alarm bells when you consider what "healing" entails. Something cannot heal from complete destruction.
Mr. Bambu said:
Was asked to comment, seems clear enough. If it's a spell that actively needs to be used, it's Healing and should be listed as such. As with everything, it should be elaborated upon in the profile to explain the specifics as necessary.
Click to expand...
What do you mean specifically by actively used?
Most healing abilities in fiction are denoted by requiring continuous activation/usage over the affected area (an example being medical ninjutsu in Naruto) so would that differ from an ability which just requires to be activated once and it regenerates wounds as opposed to continuous usage overtime?

For a better example, using a technique from Maou itself that is healing "De Ijeria", other things aside, it is essentially a barrier which heals the wounds of humans inside it. Does this technique which is clearly healing become regeneration simply because the healing is passive while inside the barrier?
 
Tatsumi504 said:
What do you mean specifically by actively used?
Most healing abilities in fiction are denoted by requiring continuous activation/usage over the affected area (an example being medical ninjutsu in Naruto) so would that differ from an ability which just requires to be activated once and it regenerates wounds as opposed to continuous usage overtime?

For a better example, using a technique from Maou itself that is healing "De Ijeria", other things aside, it is essentially a barrier which heals the wounds of humans inside it. Does this technique which is clearly healing become regeneration simply because the healing is passive while inside the barrier?
Click to expand...
I feel like there's not much interpretation, but I mean "not passive".

Most healing abilities in fiction would be defined as Healing, then. Not Regeneration. We're not changing how the ability works, we're just giving it a more accurate moniker: this isn't Regeneration. I'm not familiar with the example so can't really use it. If an ability requires conscious use, it's Healing and not Regeneration.

A zone of healing, as it were, is still healing, not regeneration, yes.
 
The spell doesn't look like a cure at all, whether it's what is written on the wiki, or what the cure's proposal is, I'm sure that "resurrection high-godly" comes much closer to what the spell does compared to the cure.
 
So long as it has to be initially activated and isn't passive then it is healing by our definition. A continous zone of healing isn't rare at all in fiction and neither are any of the other examples you gave exceptions to the rule.

"Healing can't be godly" feels closer to an argument of incredulity than anything. The distinction isn't in the degree to begin with.
 
Planck69 said:
So long as it has to be initially activated and isn't passive then it is healing by our definition. A continous zone of healing isn't rare at all in fiction and neither are any of the other examples you gave exceptions to the rule.

"Healing can't be godly" feels closer to an argument of incredulity than anything. The distinction isn't in the degree to begin with.
Click to expand...
Resurrection isn't passive either, so why don't you just put it as resurrection High godly? Which suits the spell much more.
 
After a certain point, healing and resurrection are nigh identical, it just depends on whether the character it is applied to can be considered fully "dead", really. I'm fine with Resurrection, the point lay in semantics and thus doesn't interest me.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
After a certain point, healing and resurrection are nigh identical, it just depends on whether the character it is applied to can be considered fully "dead", really. I'm fine with Resurrection, the point lay in semantics and thus doesn't interest me.
Click to expand...
Resurrection should be since destruction of source is true death in series.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Godly healing shouldn't be a thing, even just rolling the words off your tongue should set off alarm bells when you consider what "healing" entails. Something cannot heal from complete destruction.

What do you mean specifically by actively used?
Most healing abilities in fiction are denoted by requiring continuous activation/usage over the affected area (an example being medical ninjutsu in Naruto) so would that differ from an ability which just requires to be activated once and it regenerates wounds as opposed to continuous usage overtime?

For a better example, using a technique from Maou itself that is healing "De Ijeria", other things aside, it is essentially a barrier which heals the wounds of humans inside it. Does this technique which is clearly healing become regeneration simply because the healing is passive while inside the barrier?
Click to expand...
Didn't we have a whole thread that concluded that the degree of one's healing should be specified using our regeneration standards? Like, I don't understand why High-Godly Healing is such a foreign concept when the page literally has this written on it:
It's to be noted that the degree of the ability, if possible, should be specified with the same type system used for Regeneration, and so someone that has displayed the capability to heal up to a Mid level would be specified with the respective prefix.
Click to expand...

By the way, I agree with changing it to healing.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Didn't we have a whole thread that concluded that the degree of one's healing should be specified using our regeneration standards? Like, I don't understand why High-Godly Healing is such a foreign concept when the page literally has this written on it:


By the way, I agree with changing it to healing.
Click to expand...
Then why wouldn't it should be qualify as resurrection then, which is also not passive and says coming back from dead. Healing page didnt states anything near that.
 
120% disagree, already sat here and explained why it's passive regen and not healing in the maou page dude hasn't even offered a good argument for that yet 💀
 
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