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Rematch: The Perfect Human vs The Greatest Boxer (10-16-0) *GRACE*

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What is also corny is the supposed skill arguments here. "Genius" this, "every martial arts evaa" there, "world class" here, "experience" down there, that shit is worthless and can mean everything. List actual skill feats.
 
I know what it means to be a genius in The Boxer. But being a genius only amounts to anything because actual skill feats are demonstrated and attached to the title in that series. Being a genius in the boxer has a meaning, can't say the same about COTE right now.
 
azontr said:
He can't, he's slower, less skilled, and Yu only gets faster and faster as the fight continues.


Not what I said. I said Kouji resorting to kicks just allows Yu to save his OWN stamina, dodging wide kicks is easier than dodging a continuous flurry of blows at close range. The outlasting strategy can't work if Kouji resorts to this.

I've already explained how this doesn't work, Yu can just cut one of his vital points and let him bleed, and if he tries to grapple or kick then he's still just wasting stamina while allowing Yu to recover his.
Click to expand...
Koji might be cooked ngl, Yu FRA
 
azontr said:
This still doesn't make sense and is a No Limits Fallacy. Every ability has an extent. Kouji's intuition won't allow him to anticipate everything simply because you can't measure intuition in a standard way.
Click to expand...
I am not even talking about Kiyotaka here; I am just talking about intuition in general lmfao.

And about NLF, Kiyotaka's achievements already go above what's required for these cases. A new attack pattern doesn't mean anything, as his intuition doesn't directly go in to predict attacks but just guessing the upper limits of his opponent.
azontr said:
This is a strawman. Just because he hasn't reached city level or any higher tiers doesn't mean his growth isn't rapid or constant, not every series portrays growth like Garou or some shit where they grow a dozen tiers. The scan also doesn't make any of that clear, "using information from opponents" to grow is something you made up unless you're talking about his analytical prediction. We've seen instances of Yu simply growing even when he doesn't need to put in any effort, he got sharper from fighting Yuto and Yuto didn't even make him try.
Click to expand...
Both the scans and the text The Boxer supporters have put on the wiki uses the word "adapt", so I don't really know.

Adapting in itself is using information against something you require to adapt, and the scan itself says that he was noting down movements like even muscle twitches and the thoughts of his opponents.
azontr said:
No, they don't work differently. Martial arts skill is martial arts skill no matter what verse it comes from, it's not like skill in COTE is some kind of power system. Don't make things up to tip-toe around the skill argument.
Click to expand...
I am not even saying that.

You can't learn baking by observing frying even though both of them are steps of cooking. All the martial arts involve varieties in stances and even their very core in itself. Some focus on strength while some focus on speed. Yu does learn boxing of another character even when they use a different variety, but it doesn't allow him to just learn anything and everything.

Again, not something I really want to argue about, you are wasting both of us' times.
azontr said:
I DO know this because it has been stated to me several times but it still doesn't mean anything.

Okay, it's the same for Yu, he never trained his skills outside of learning dura neg for Aaron and specifically is discouraged by K from training his skills so he isn't limited by the inferior abilities of other styles.
Click to expand...
Well, you used a Bruce Lee quote here? Sure, might be unrelated from your part, ehh.
azontr said:
Skills and technique literally play an active role in an opponent's ability to land attacks. Why are you ducking the skill argument?
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter if you are throwing a punch with a closed fist or just doing a jab by an open pointed one if you can't hit your opponent. Yes, that's why I am conveneniently not trying to punch the wall by going too much into the skill argument.

The way you attack starts to matter when you CAN attack, so focus on that.
azontr said:
You haven't even explained how any of that stuff works beyond intuition, which still isn't enough to beat Yu. I don't need to prove your own point for you.
Click to expand...
I already did:
(just quoting my message from before)
Yes, he has to rely on physical parameters to understand their limits.

AND he uses his intuition to guess make these physical parameters out by himself.

I am using the intuition argument only to make it clear that Yu's resistance to bodily analysis doesn't make him less susceptible to Kiyotaka's foresight. Kiyotaka's intuition just serves as a backup in fights mainly, this time, he would have to use this BACKUP in this fight.
Click to expand...
You just interpreted in a very different way.
azontr said:
Okay, how though? What would he say or do to change Yu's mood specifically?
Click to expand...
He can simply irritate him or make him lose his composure. It wouldn't be an NLF if I said he could do it because he did shoot a glare for disorienting Nagumo in an actual fight.
azontr said:
This still all ties in to analyzing Yu's physical specs and abilities, whether he does it through conscious analysis or intuition. Either way he is predicting Yu's abilities by looking at him physically, whether by conscious thought, or just by intuitively knowing his specs, which Yu resists.
Click to expand...
It's not "analyzing", avoid that word, it's just intuition. Analysis has steps like observation via perception and then taking in of premises to form a valid reasoning, all of which is not intuition. Yu doesn't resist intuition, that's in fact both supernatural and even more greatly illogical. If he does, you are supposed to bring in that before.
 
First_Witch said:
******* "methodology" of prediction, holy shit is this corny.
Click to expand...
I like using vocabulary from SCD comments, is that bad?
First_Witch said:
What is also corny is the supposed skill arguments here. "Genius" this, "every martial arts evaa" there, "world class" here, "experience" down there, that shit is worthless and can mean everything. List actual skill feats.
Click to expand...
Genius in general refers to every individual who goes beyond just the above average and gifted levels of intelligence, both combat and general intelligence wise.
World class can help in getting a general idea of the skill level of a professional, and experience in itself is self-explanatory.

I haven't seen anything more than skill levels in a mountain-ant comparison myself, so I supposed I was just supposed to give narratives? But yes, whatever I wrote makes it feats too, he did "beat" them, it's literally not just narratives lmfao. 😭 🙏
 
RoggerReggor said:
I like using vocabulary from SCD comments, is that bad?

Genius in general refers to every individual who goes beyond just the above average and gifted levels of intelligence, both combat and general intelligence wise.
World class can help in getting a general idea of the skill level of a professional, and experience in itself is self-explanatory.

I haven't seen anything more than skill levels in a mountain-ant comparison myself, so I supposed I was just supposed to give narratives? But yes, whatever I wrote makes it feats too, he did "beat" them, it's literally not just narratives lmfao. 😭 🙏
Click to expand...
Then just give those *****' skill feats! How hard is it to drop a scan for someone who ain't the "messiah" of the verse to show that they aren't a bunch of low-skill little googoo gaga ******* and Ayanokouji is the only one with any actual competence?
 
RoggerReggor said:
I like using vocabulary from SCD comments, is that bad?
Click to expand...
Do whatever you want, but yes
RoggerReggor said:
Genius in general refers to every individual who goes beyond just the above average and gifted levels of intelligence, both combat and general intelligence wise.
Click to expand...
What a person considers "genius" level differs from person to person. Its literally a worthless metric of skill
RoggerReggor said:
World class can help in getting a general idea of the skill level of a professional,
Click to expand...
It can't, unless you believe real world professionals are a impressive metric in skill discussions. A hint, its not. Its also worthless title in a fictional setting.
RoggerReggor said:
and experience in itself is self-explanatory.
Click to expand...
Experience is by far the worst metric of skill that has ever existed and i would go so far and to say that it is even more worthless than the 2 above. Its a arbitrary number that tells me nothing of a characters skill.
RoggerReggor said:
I haven't seen anything more than skill levels in a mountain-ant comparison myself, so I supposed I was just supposed to give narratives? But yes, whatever I wrote makes it feats too, he did "beat" them, it's literally not just narratives lmfao. 😭 🙏
Click to expand...
It is all narrative because beating up "world class professionals" means jack shit. Being something is not a feat.
 
Mikey's going to be unbanned. Oh lord. I'm going to cry.
 
W5vFPa8
🥀
 
XxZetsuxX said:
Grace ended when Reggor voted Koji

Idk when it started again, i think it was with Phoenks?
Click to expand...
Vapidhoe started grace in Yu's favor, but DeltaStriker22 broke that last page. I'll go ahead and recount the votes. Let me know if I missed anybody and I'll update.

Ayanokouji Kiyotaka (10): @CatLover313, @TheHuntsman1001, @XxZetsuxX, @Vzearr, @Buzzflightyear, @VladimirMakarov317, @Zefra3011, @DeltaStriker22, @RoggerReggor, @Fezzih_007
Yu (17): @Foriaa, @azontr, @DaReaperMan, @Kachon123, @Pyro9278, @Lynieryz, @Da3ggman, @Kellex, @Robo432343, @Vapidhoe, @Phoenks, @Kazuma_kuwabara, @Arceus0x, @VNova, @Doggo, @UnstoppableObject, @Viott

EDIT: Added Phoenks and UnstoppableObject, but Kuwabara's vote started grace again in Yu's favor after Phoenks' vote.
 
Last edited:
I'm voting Yu just to annoy people (12x higher perception speed, at least 1.19x faster with durability negation is just too much. Yu can already plan out how he'll evade Ayanokouji's attack before the attack reaches even half the distance between them. Since he's at least slightly faster, he'll have no problem evading it. I hope I'm not delusional here)
 
DaReaperMan said:
Then just give those *****' skill feats! How hard is it to drop a scan for someone who ain't the "messiah" of the verse to show that they aren't a bunch of low-skill little googoo gaga ******* and Ayanokouji is the only one with any actual competence?
Click to expand...
I already said like 6 times in the thread itself that I am not planning to engage in any skill merchants' arguments unless we are somehow beyond arguing that either of them can touch each other, but yes, for your "messiah" input, you can ask me to specifically list the feats for any of these when it actually matters. I have seen some of the most atrocious wordings being used to define skills/techniques, which is something which I only orient to fighting styles. I will simply explain the feats in a phrase or a sentence as I have already been asked to not do much mishap and let people vote, and to avoid making this message get longer and avoid repetition, the scans can be found on the profile (if you can't, tell):

- Information Analysis: Y2V4 Analysis of Tsukishiro and Shiba - analyzed their extent of abilities and how much they knew about him which was about 99%, Y2V3 Analysis of Nanase - exactly analyzed upon Nanase's reactions that she had a much higher dynamic visual acuity than a normal person upon the way her eyes reacted and moved to things, V0 - analyzed the muscle mass of fighters through their clothes, and made it out their movements in a fight would be rough and spirited and them being capable of an uphill fight, and not fluid without even seeing them fight, but just seeing them walk inside.

- Predictions/Combat Foresight: Already listed numerous times, even explained.

- Situational Knowledge: Y2V4 - Stun gun possession of Tsukishiro, analysis of the boatman being another fighter, V0 - A call for emotional suppressions which he would need to perform in the fight against professionals, picking up a baton instead of more lethal weapons for range.

- Skills/Techniques: V0 (Surpassed the martial arts at professionals' levels with world levels which would be above 'Dan 10's of specific martial arts. This includes a variety of martial arts and not just a single one, by calculation, it includes at least 7 of them)

- Battle Tactics/Scheming: Y2V4 - Discerned that Tsukishiro and Shiba could approach about 99% of the manners in which he could engage in combat, made the 1% tactics and schemes with which he fought them, it's cognitively unrealistic because he would need to know about the exact 99% of the thoughts they read from him, and then make a counter approach on it.

- Learning Ability: V0 - Learnt numerous martial arts at extremely high levels in just 5 years, Y2V11 - Learnt archery above the level of Ichika who was around the level of a professional by seeing tutorials online, Y1V11 - Adapted to Sakayanagi's style of playing and learnt through her plays to the point where he outplayed a chess engine, Y2V8 - Absorbed all the movements of Ryuuen and Kitou on the spot in the matter of seconds or lesser to learn skiing till their levels.

- Battle Experience: V0 - Upscales the combined experience of all the instructors he beat in the White Rooms

- Visual Spatial Imaging: Y1V5 - Can completely remember and visualize any single place he has seen by having things merely enter his field of view perfectly.

- Battle Adaptability: V0 - Surpassed Shirou completely by the second or third time. Shirou is someone who is naturally good at learning basically anything in his first try, and yes, by simply "existing".

- Composure Maintenance: V0 - Suppressed his emotions and unrealistically engaged them in the White Room to the point where he could adapt to all the difficulties of the White Room. This applies to almost every survivor of White Room fourth generation till the age of 6 or 7.

- Tenacity: V0 - Endurance + Emotional Engagement

- Energy Conservation: Y2V4 - Preserved his stamina for the 14 days of the Island exam and used it intermittently with extremely less gap between intervals and fought Tsukishiro and Shiba with deprived stamina towards the end and regained his stamina in between.

Once "skills/techniques" start mattering, I don't have any problems in sharing the scans for anything, but I suppose we are already refraining from debating further, so I will just try to list the feats and explain them with their volume and arc number too.

Either way, this is all the aspects I see Battle Intelligence itself in. I define Skills/Techniques as only the fighting styles such as martial arts or techniques such as street fighting, uphill combat, etc., while a hell lot of people in this thread use it synonymously with Battle Intelligence, so I just kind of enlisted all the parameters I use for it.
 
RoggerReggor said:
I already said like 6 times in the thread itself that I am not planning to engage in any skill merchants' arguments unless we are somehow beyond arguing that either of them can touch each other, but yes, for your "messiah" input, you can ask me to specifically list the feats for any of these when it actually matters. I have seen some of the most atrocious wordings being used to define skills/techniques, which is something which I only orient to fighting styles. I will simply explain the feats in a phrase or a sentence as I have already been asked to not do much mishap and let people vote, and to avoid making this message get longer and avoid repetition, the scans can be found on the profile (if you can't, tell):

- Information Analysis: Y2V4 Analysis of Tsukishiro and Shiba - analyzed their extent of abilities and how much they knew about him which was about 99%, Y2V3 Analysis of Nanase - exactly analyzed upon Nanase's reactions that she had a much higher dynamic visual acuity than a normal person upon the way her eyes reacted and moved to things, V0 - analyzed the muscle mass of fighters through their clothes, and made it out their movements in a fight would be rough and spirited and them being capable of an uphill fight, and not fluid without even seeing them fight, but just seeing them walk inside.

- Predictions/Combat Foresight: Already listed numerous times, even explained.

- Situational Knowledge: Y2V4 - Stun gun possession of Tsukishiro, analysis of the boatman being another fighter, V0 - A call for emotional suppressions which he would need to perform in the fight against professionals, picking up a baton instead of more lethal weapons for range.

- Skills/Techniques: V0 (Surpassed the martial arts at professionals' levels with world levels which would be above 'Dan 10's of specific martial arts. This includes a variety of martial arts and not just a single one, by calculation, it includes at least 7 of them)

- Battle Tactics/Scheming: Y2V4 - Discerned that Tsukishiro and Shiba could approach about 99% of the manners in which he could engage in combat, made the 1% tactics and schemes with which he fought them, it's cognitively unrealistic because he would need to know about the exact 99% of the thoughts they read from him, and then make a counter approach on it.

- Learning Ability: V0 - Learnt numerous martial arts at extremely high levels in just 5 years, Y2V11 - Learnt archery above the level of Ichika who was around the level of a professional by seeing tutorials online, Y1V11 - Adapted to Sakayanagi's style of playing and learnt through her plays to the point where he outplayed a chess engine, Y2V8 - Absorbed all the movements of Ryuuen and Kitou on the spot in the matter of seconds or lesser to learn skiing till their levels.

- Battle Experience: V0 - Upscales the combined experience of all the instructors he beat in the White Rooms

- Visual Spatial Imaging: Y1V5 - Can completely remember and visualize any single place he has seen by having things merely enter his field of view perfectly.

- Battle Adaptability: V0 - Surpassed Shirou completely by the second or third time. Shirou is someone who is naturally good at learning basically anything in his first try, and yes, by simply "existing".

- Composure Maintenance: V0 - Suppressed his emotions and unrealistically engaged them in the White Room to the point where he could adapt to all the difficulties of the White Room. This applies to almost every survivor of White Room fourth generation till the age of 6 or 7.

- Tenacity: V0 - Endurance + Emotional Engagement

- Energy Conservation: Y2V4 - Preserved his stamina for the 14 days of the Island exam and used it intermittently with extremely less gap between intervals and fought Tsukishiro and Shiba with deprived stamina towards the end and regained his stamina in between.

Once "skills/techniques" start mattering, I don't have any problems in sharing the scans for anything, but I suppose we are already refraining from debating further, so I will just try to list the feats and explain them with their volume and arc number too.

Either way, this is all the aspects I see Battle Intelligence itself in. I define Skills/Techniques as only the fighting styles such as martial arts or techniques such as street fighting, uphill combat, etc., while a hell lot of people in this thread use it synonymously with Battle Intelligence, so I just kind of enlisted all the parameters I use for it.
Click to expand...
None of these names mean anything, so I'll assume he's better than average no-skill humans and he gets skillstomped...

I don't just say "Thrall is superior to Saurfang" I say "Thrall is superior to Saurfang who can do XYZ"
 
DaReaperMan said:
None of these names mean anything, so I'll assume he's better than average no-skill humans and he gets skillstomped...

I don't just say "Thrall is superior to Saurfang" I say "Thrall is superior to Saurfang who can do XYZ"
Click to expand...
  • Ayanokouji can consistenly stop his fist 1 centimeter to someones face
  • Ayanokouji can make the same angle, same motion, same strenght, same position etc
  • Ayanokouji can go from losing to winning in 2-3 minutes max with the gap widening from there, even instantly at some times
  • Can dodge attacks by feeling cold air in the neck last second
  • By watching youtube videos, managed to surpass Ichika who had 1 day of training beforehand who is also someone with AD where if Ayanokouji wasn't there, she would score 1st place
  • Can outpace 6 fighters at the same time as 9 year old
  • Has more pressure points knowledge than any person
  • Can predict based on intuition, body movements, reasoning, stance and upper limits
  • Knows what kind of martial arts people use with a glance even if they are original with him also knowing where it originated from
  • Can supress his bodily and emotional responses
  • Upscales Takuya who can counter attacks from his blind spots without looking
  • Can dodge attacks by instinct even to his blind spots
  • Can remain unhit while he is dehydrated, tired and hungry under a scorching temperature against 2 people who are comparable to him, had prior knowledge on his feats and a plan to defeat him
Better?
 
DaReaperMan said:
None of these names mean anything, so I'll assume he's better than average no-skill humans and he gets skillstomped...

I don't just say "Thrall is superior to Saurfang" I say "Thrall is superior to Saurfang who can do XYZ"
Click to expand...
A world class professional lies at the level of Dan 10 or grandmaster level in martial arts, which in real world terms, requires a few decades worth of time to get.

So no, none of them are "average no-skill humans". I already listed in my message about what I see as "skill" and what in battle intelligence I don't.
But yes, beating one of them would give normal intelligence (100 IQ in IQ scales, and maybe any normal unit in Battle Intelligence), beating at least 7 of them gives like 140 years of normal time needed (assuming that few decades are at least 20 years and he got at least 7 martial arts in his arsenal through them), making it 140 years of normal time needed in 5 years making it like a 28x of normal time required.

SO YES, NONE OF EVEN THE SKILL IS JUST "AVERAGE" lmfao. 😭

None of anything which I wrote is literally just "average", and you took like a single minute to go through all of it, which makes me think you didn't even try to go through the scans in another tab yourself. 💔
 
Don't start with the backhanded shit dude :alien: you're not the arbiter of skill.
 
Wait, i think i can improve upon this using my friend's categories;

Martial Arts:
  • Technique Execution: His body efficiency is far above world class instructors who stand at the peak of their respective martial arts who are geniuses themselves and they are rendered as a baby compared to Ayanokouji.
  • Knowledge: I don't think this needs explanation here, we all agree Ayanokouji has more knowledge regarding martial arts?.
  • Spatial Precision: Ayanokouji can consistently stop his fist 1 cm of someone's face.
Analytical:
  • Information Analysis: Ayanokouji can gain information upon his reasoning skills which makes him able to gauge someone's strenght, their speed, their own martial arts even if they originate from outside of conventional martial arts, patterns, trajectories, habits, timing etc.
  • Analytical Prediction: Ayanokouji predicts attacks by knowing the upper limits of the opponent either via reasoning or intuition even if they hide it.
Tactical skills:
  • Reactive Evolution: Both can create counters, but Yu is way faster at it soo...
  • Planning: Koji stomps, let's be fr here.
Accelerated Development:
  • Power Mimicry: Both are good, Yu does it instantly but Koji takes longer but has more in-depth knowledge while Yu just does it without thinking to much of it.
  • Learning ability: I would say Yu is better without a doubt in the short run, but Koji surpasses in the long run
 
XxZetsuxX said:
Grace ended when Reggor voted Koji

Idk when it started again, i think it was with Phoenks?
Click to expand...
Pretty sure delta voted for ayano which made it 8-10 (I believe a 3 vote gap is needed). Idk what the new updated score is but I believe Yu should have the 3 vote gap needed and grace probs started sometime
 
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