Reworking Toaru's cosmology/explanation page

As the title says, I'm updating the decade-old blog.
Old blog
New blog

The only major change is downgrading the High 1-C scaling across the series to Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C which is already part of the current blog that was written before the upgrade to High 1-C.
That's about it. The rest is just explanation of the setting.

Characters affected: Othinus, the True Magic Gods, Coronzon, Accelerator, Lilith, Aleister, Aiwass, Alice, and the weapon Gungnir.

Agree: Vietthai96, Qawsedf (on the downgrade)
Disagree: DerBaumKrieger, BlazeISbot111, Piamma, korea1234
Neutral:

Damn, I'll miss the days of Magic Gods stomping canon dragon ball/j

The ant walking on the rope is literally the example used to describe compactified dimensions in real life, especially for string theory. So 11D downgrade is oke

As compactified dimensions discredit the notion of qualitative superiority

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Though you need fix this, qualitative superiority is now used for 1-A and above, dimensional superiority is quantitative superiority

likely Low 1-C seems oke

The rest looks fine from a glance

Though anyway let call experts

@DontTalkDT @Qawsedf234

Vietthai96 said:

Though you need fix this, qualitative superiority is now used for 1-A and above, dimensional superiority is quantitative superiority

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Ah, I'll change that thanks

Vietthai96 said:

Though anyway let call experts

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Yeah, the downgrade is fine. Though if God is omnipresent and infinite, then you can make an argument that they'd still be High 1-C I guess.

Churronzon said:

As the title says, I'm updating the decade-old blog
Old blog
New blog

The only major change is downgrading the High 1-C scaling across the series to Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C which is already part of the current blog that was written before the upgrade to High 1-C.
That's about it. The rest is just explanation of the setting.

Characters affected: Othinus, the True Magic Gods, Coronzon, Accelerator, Lilith, Aleister, Aiwass, Alice, and the weapon Gungnir.

Agree: Vietthai96
Disagree:
Neutral:

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i disagree on the downgrade/compact dimensions

but the blog seems fine

Qawsedf234 said:

Yeah, the downgrade is fine. Though if God is omnipresent and infinite, then you can make an argument that they'd still be High 1-C I guess.

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But the God have no relation to the dimensions themselves???? at best, the "infinite" part would allow you to have +1D jump

Vietthai96 said:

But the God have no relation to the dimensions themselves???? at best, the "infinite" part would allow you to have +1D jump

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If God is Omnipresent that means they're 11-D and if they're infinite they're infinite 11-D.

Qawsedf234 said:

If God is Omnipresent that means they're 11-D and if they're infinite they're infinite 11-D.

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Oke i guess

On its own that's simple enough. However years later, a spinoff titled Toaru Kagaku no Mental Out, described the dimensions that teleporters and an 11-dimensional manipulator use to fold space as being compactified,[18] which is incompatible with Curtana's functionality, implying that two separate dimensional theories exist simultaneously.

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They are by no means incompatible, teleporters use both finite and infinite dimension. Most teleports like Kuroko use 11D vectors while Kamino uses wormhole based teleportation.

“C’mon, just do it! And do the teleport too!!”
“Eh? Isn’t it scary suddenly disappearing and reappearing somewhere else? What if you
ended up in some strange place?”
“I know how that works. You travel through something like a tunnel that you call a
wormhole.”
“But what makes up that tunnel? How long is the tunnel???”
“Eee!” Uiharu let out a pathetic scream.
(I think Shirai-san’s ability converts the perceived three dimensional space into strict 11 dimensional space and then moves a different axis instead of using wormholes, but the detailed theory behind it is on a university graduate student level. Please don’t look to a completely normal middle school student for an intelligent answer about it…)

~A Certain Magical Index NT, Vol.06, Ch.06​

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Vector based teleportation is very explicitly based on infinite sized dimensions.

She’d never tried it before, but she could make a guess. Espers with teleportation moved around with their absolute coordinates in eleven dimensions in mind, not in three. Even if one tried to alter the spatial coordinates of another teleporter, that mental positioning system probably served to hinder the process like a wedge.

~A Certain Magical Index, Vol.08​

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With her timing thrown completely off due to the sound and the impact, Shirai was forced to cancel her teleportation. In order for her to trigger her ability, she needed to substitute theoretical values of eleven dimensions into this three-dimensional world she was bound to, then re-form her grasp on reality. The calculations involved were extremely cumbersome, and sudden panic or surprise could render her power useless.

~A Certain Magical Index, Vol.08​

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Since we are doing this I would also add some arguments for infinite-D universe.

For starters, I would reiterate that Esper powers are caused by affecting laws of the world at micro level, basing this on Schoodringer's Catbox thought experiment to bring out the other possibilities, these possibilities make up the Esper powers, and the disconnected perception of reality forms Personal reality. AIM diffusion fields being fields of energy given off subconsciously by Espers.

Imaginary Number District is a space existing simultaneously besides Academy City made up of AIM diffusion fields. The residents of ID exists in a superposition exhibiting different possibilities at differing position as per the role given to them by Kazakiri, Kazakiri thus being the observer through whom the superposition collapses in a singular state. Without Kazakiri acting as the coiled spring, the city is at a complete halt, which begin to move when Kazakiri interacts/observe them, like "if she were to go into a store to buy some juice, the employees there would begin moving, the juice distributors would begin to work, the power plant that supplied electricity to the refrigerators would power up, the factory that made the juice would begin to work, and the recyclables collectors would start to move."

In a way, if we were to assume that the residents of ID were truly in a superposition we can assume that they are truly function within the rules of quantum mechanics, thus a Hilbert space is an infinite dimensional vector space that represents these infinite possibilities, with each possibility to be measured as eigenvalues. Each unique eigenvectors corresponds makes up an additional dimension in Hilbert space, and since ID refers to position it would infinite. Though this is by no means High 1-B. Using Hilbert space for a tier is equivalent to scaling a mathematical formula without any ontological commitment to Abstract objects.

For this we come to NT4, Baggage city arc. Baggage city was grounds for experiment for Holistic espers who are similar to Espers but differ on the ground that their ability affects the macro world to bring a minute change, like destroying a galaxy to make small fire.

Baggage city was used as a testing ground for the foundational principle for Espers but rather by using Holism rather than Quantum mechanics, that is working with the macro world rather than the micro. Among the explanation for theory, this is of certain importance for us.

Holism
In that theory, the entire expanding universe was treated as a single large system or network and things were viewed at the largest scale that humans could manage. This once branched off to Gaia Theory which viewed the entire Earth as a single environment or ecosystem, but the life forms on the Earth were also affected by solar winds and the gravitational pull of the moon. If you also added in the time axis and other dimensions to that large 'world', you were no longer dealing with just a single planet. In that way, many had gone back to the origins of the theory and talking in true wholes once more.

~A Certain Magical Index NT, Vol.04, Connection Process​

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And seemingly the principle of Quantum mechanics still apply.

As such, an esper created from the whole might only reach a Level 2 or 3 on Academy City's scale. Even if some truly ridiculous thing was occurring in reality, no one would notice it, so it might as well not have been happening. Ironically, this was the same as the concept of zero in quantum theory.

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Since Kamijou Touma's right hand had negated something, something needing to be negated must have been there.
Let us take Kamijou and the other's proper 'present' as o and the 'future' created by the holistic experiment as 1.
Gremlin surely thought they were controlling a holistic experiment. Until partway through, that was true. Gremlin's major preparations in Baggage City had indeed created a result in their experiment to show that a distortion that should not exist leads to esper powers.
However, when the small distortion had appeared, Gremlin and Baggage City which were in the 'present' had begun to be forcibly drawn in by the holistic result in the 'future'. It was like scientists losing control of the black hole they had created.
And so things became distorted.
If the 'present' was o and the 'future' was 1, then, until Kamijou had arrived, Baggage City (which should have been a o) had been drawn in and the time and space had been distorted toward the future making it a 0.5 or a 0.7.
That was why something had been off about the place in which Kihara and Gremlin clashed despite the fact that it should have been Baggage City.
The normal laws did not apply and they began to be bound by some strange laws that made tragedies occur much more easily.

~A Certain Magical Index NT, Vol.04, Connection Process​

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To summarise, the spatial dimensions are used to draw the possibilities of the quantum state that makes up the Esper abilities. Simultaneously this could work well to justify the assumption that the residents of ID are in Quantum Superposition.


To sum it all up, this is a justification for the existence of infinite dimensions, besides the 11 for Teleporters, as per the claim of Curtana being able to cut all dimensions that can be represented by the whole numbers, dimensions of which have already been justifed to operate on mathematical/geometrical conception of dimensions. At the very least this would justify the High 1C rating and imo should be good enough justification for High 1B.

Qawsedf234 said:

Yeah, the downgrade is fine. Though if God is omnipresent and infinite, then you can make an argument that they'd still be High 1-C I guess.

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i mean the god would be infinite low 1-C or infinite low 2-C, since the 11 dimension are "compact"

Qawsedf234 said:

If God is Omnipresent that means they're 11-D and if they're infinite they're infinite 11-D.

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As the guy above said, the 11 dimensions are compactified so I don't see how God could use omnipresent Planck-length existence to scale for a higher tier, while the rest of the characters wouldn't. I also don't think we actually have a specific quote about God's omnipresence, aside from extrapolating based off omnipotence. It's too dubious to go for that upgrade imo.

I disagree with this thread and the blog itself based on a few main perspectives.

1. Regarding the separation of the magical dimension and the scientific dimension by Curtana.
On its own that's simple enough. However years later, a spinoff titled Toaru Kagaku no Mental Out described the dimensions that teleporters and an 11-dimensional manipulator use to fold space as being compactified,[18] which is incompatible with Curtana's functionality, implying that two separate dimensional theories exist simultaneously. As compactified dimensions discredit the notion of dimensional superiority, any previous scaling to specifically 11 dimensions would be invalidated, instead scaling higher than an unknown number of dimensions that exist and which Curtana is cutting, with the bare minimum being four dimensions of space and one dimension of time, but likely referring to five spatial dimensions since it mentions a plurality of higher dimensions. Under this framework, Magic Gods would receive a tiering of at least Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C.

You stated that the two are incompatible; if so, I believe the priority should be to prove the actual existence of a new magical dimension first.
According to the dimensional description of Curtana, it exactly matches the Euclidean geometric description of dimensions, where cutting a plane results in a line, and cutting a line results in a point.
Even regarding the scientific dimensions, according to the dimensional descriptions previously written by Kamachi:

In this world, if you cut an n-dimensional object, the cross-section becomes n-1 dimensional. If it's 3D, it becomes 2D; if 2D, it becomes 1D. Therefore, it is based on the theory that cutting a 1D object will result in 0D. Currently, no one has observed a 0-dimension, but according to the above theory, if a 1D point can be cut, it would be created. The 0-dimensional and 3-dimensional worlds correspond to each other, but compared to the vastness of the 3D world, the 0D is merely a single point. If 'everything in the 3D world' is contained within that single point of the 0-dimension, that 0D point can connect to all coordinates in the 3D world, and can be used as an intermediate point for warps or teleports. However, the difference from spatial movement is that this power is not affected by distance or weight at all. There are no espers who can reach the end of the galaxy, but with this method, what is needed can be pulled from the end of the universe, and everything unnecessary or obstructive can be blown away to the end of the galaxy.

The dimensional method described at the extreme point of the 0-dimension completely matches Curtana's dimensional method.
If you are going to claim that all scientific dimensions are compactified based on a single descriptive panel from a spinoff saying it's a compactified dimension, why do you not address the parts that conflict with the dimensional descriptions mentioned in the main series?
Therefore, unless the compactification of dimensions is explicitly shown in the main series, both the claim that the thread's dimensions are compactified and the hypothesis that magical and scientific dimensions are different are refuted by the contents of the main series.

2. The timeline and universe of Toaru is singular.
I have already mentioned this multiple times, but JS06's translation of Kamisato in New Testament Volume 13 is completely wrong. Do I need to post all the relevant texts again?
Even in the spinoffs written by Kamachi himself, he stated that aside from one single fact, those spinoffs could be incorporated into the canon. Since the many-worlds interpretation and parallel universe theories have appeared in such spinoffs, the Toaru universe cannot be just one.
If necessary, let's discuss this again in that thread.

3. Regarding the upgrade.
If it can be definitively proven that infinite dimensions exist even purely in theory, that scaling can be expanded starting from Alice's level.
Alice is a character explicitly described as being capable of applying all theories from the grand perspective of quantum mechanics, and even an infinitely weakened Magic God can match or overpower such an Alice.

Churronzon said:

As the guy above said, the 11 dimensions are compactified so I don't see how God could use omnipresent Planck-length existence to scale for a higher tier, while the rest of the characters wouldn't. I also don't think we actually have a specific quote about God's omnipresence, aside from extrapolating based off omnipotence. It's too dubious to go for that upgrade imo.

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Magic Gods are characters who, as early as Volume 1, were mentioned as being capable of mathematical manipulation, such as making 1+1 equal 3, and were stated in New Testament Volume 12 to handle all dimensions.
Furthermore, even Alice, who cannot interfere with actual religious or mythological phases and therefore could not even bring Kamijou back to life, is capable of manipulating quantum mechanics itself. Therefore, I completely disagree with the argument that the scaling of Gods cannot be expanded.

Vietthai96 said:

But the God have no relation to the dimensions themselves???? at best, the "infinite" part would allow you to have +1D jump

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They are beings capable of erasing the very concept of dimensions from the universe.
It cannot be considered completely unrelated.

Piamma said:

Therefore, unless the compactification of dimensions is explicitly shown in the main series, both the claim that the thread's dimensions are compactified and the hypothesis that magical and scientific dimensions are different are refuted by the contents of the main series.

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It doesn't need to be shown in the main series if the canonical spinoff does.

Piamma said:

If you are going to claim that all scientific dimensions are compactified based on a single descriptive panel from a spinoff saying it's a compactified dimension,

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I'm not claiming only compactified dimensions exist. Yes it's tragic that two dimensional frameworks are introduced and are contradictory to each other. If people want to come to a consensus that the spinoff is dumb and maybe not completely curated by the original light novel author Kamachi Kazuma and the manga editor/illustrator Nogi Yasuhito is instead taking some creative liberties à la Murata in One-Punch Man and shouldn't be used, then that's for this thread to decide. I don't really care what the end result is.

It's just that so long as the compactified dimensions in the spinoff are considered canonical, what I stated in the blog is the only way I can see the two frameworks being reconciled.

Churronzon said:

It doesn't need to be shown in the main series if the canonical spinoff does.

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Since there have been multiple instances in the main series refuting that it is a compressed dimension, additional direct evidence is required.
What you are saying is no different from ignoring the original author and solely prioritizing the spin-off author, Nogi.
As a prime example, Kamachi does not intervene in everything, even in Railgun.

New Testament Volume 22R Afterword:
"Like Saten Ruiko, who originated from the spin-off Railgun, she only had an established setting. Strictly speaking, it was hard to call her my own character, so I was relieved that I could somehow make her act."

If even a main character like Shokuhou is treated like this based only on mentions from the spin-off, I believe it is right to prioritize the original work regarding conflicting settings until a direct statement is made in the main series.

I disagree because I partially agree with BlazeISbot111’s argument. Of course, that’s not the only reason.


Since XDragnoir said they would write a post with upgrade ideas, I think it would be best to wait.



Additionally, DontTalkDT suggested the idea of a multiverse—not a single universe—even setting aside the previous dimensional theory.

For that reason, I oppose this post. At the very least, I think we should wait until XDragnoir writes the post with upgrade ideas.

Qawsedf234 said:

Yeah, the downgrade is fine. Though if God is omnipresent and infinite, then you can make an argument that they'd still be High 1-C I guess.

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The Magic God is an infinite being. Because the Magic God is infinite, simply taking a single step would destroy the world (the universe, the dimension). For this reason, it is said that the Magic Gods had to weaken their own power.