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Disney Discussion Thread

Needless to say, even leaving at a side the whole can of worms that is the Chip and Dale movie having the main setting based around every character being an actor and the events in the "original" pieces of media as fictional (which even House of Mouse apparently still treats as canonical events that weren't stage plays), C&D RR 2022 still has a ton of contradictions with that in mind:

Citing TV Tropes (take it with a grain of salt by extension, however):

  • The characters were originally created in 1943, and appeared in multiple Disney cartoons before and after the Rescue Rangers series. The film shows the pair meeting as children in 1982, and ignores their appearances outside of the show, which is treated as their first and only major foray into show business.
  • Blaster was shown as a member of Chip and Dale's high school, yet he would have likely been on TV at the time given that, in between the years of Chip and Dale's transition from school to Hollywood, Blaster would have joined the cast of his show in 1985 for the second season.
  • Dale keeps a map of the highest ratings for Rescue Rangers in 1991, recalling that it was the show's most successful year. The original series actually ended in November 1990, having only aired in first-run for 20 months.
  • The duo escape the bootlegging machine by recalling "Episode 121", apparently titled "Mission: Chippossible". No such episode exists, as the series only ran for sixty-five episodes.note According to Tad Stones, this 65 episode rule was heavily enforced at Disney to ensure that they would be guaranteed to air on syndicated reruns. Very rarely were they extended beyond that, with Aladdin: The Series getting an extension due to its popularity. However, the three-digit number could be referring to "Season 1, Episode 21," therefore meaning the twenty-first episode of the whole series, which is a common way of numbering episodes in a series; then again, Season 1 of the real Rescue Rangers series only had 13 episodes, the 21st episode would've been in the second season, and that one was "Battle of the Bulge"—there's no "Mission: Chippossible" episode at all in the real-world series.
  • Similarly to Chip and Dale, many animated characters who are still highly beloved and popular, such as Lumiere, Flounder and Peter Pan, are presented as a bunch of a down on their luck has-beens.
  • On that same note, there is no mention of any of the sequels those characters appeared in, or the side projects (i.e. Kingdom Hearts, the Disney Junior shows), leaving it unclear if they were actually made in this universe, or if these characters were simply "recast" with lookalikes. This is particularly noteworthy in Lumiere's case, as the appearance of the live-action remake Disney characters (either as the originals having undergone CGI surgery or just new iterations altogether) suggest that Beauty and the Beast (2017) was made, but he still looks like he did in the original, implying he wasn't invited to participate or declined.
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Bobsican said:
Needless to say, even leaving at a side the whole can of worms that is the Chip and Dale movie having the main setting based around every character being an actor and the events in the "original" pieces of media as fictional (which even House of Mouse apparently still treats as canonical events that weren't stage plays), C&D RR 2022 still has a ton of contradictions with that in mind:

Citing TV Tropes (take it with a grain of salt by extension, however):
Click to expand...
That last point makes me think Lumiere just had high standards, and wasn't interested in what the remake was doing.
 
is Mickey, Donald, Goofy The Three Musketeers movie it's own thing or..


and also where does the Eisner Era Class P come from?
 
I've been meaning to deep dive into the Ducks comics in general so I can separate all of them proper, but I'm not sure where to start or gain access to them.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
With all of that, Wonderland would be tiered extremely highly. The issue would come from nuances such as 'Well, Alice herself isn't combat usable', and you're right, but if I do this I'm just going to argue about Wonderland's tier and how it may affect certain characters who may or may not scale to the entirety of the Disney canon universe, but that will require discussing it with others knowledgeable on Disney, which I'll do at a later date.
Click to expand...
BTW, any update on this? Looking around between House of Mouse, the Chibiverse, and Sofia the First, it does seem like a "Disneyverse" is explicitly intended, which in particular sticks out as Gravity Falls is specifically a part of this mess between the Chibiverse and GF referencing it back cosmology-wise in the Book of Bill, so this cosmology would already be poking at 1-B to 1-A. Marvel can also be tied in thanks to Big Hero 6 being a part of the Marvel cosmology, which appears prominently in Chibiverse.

That said, there's surprisingly few characters that (arguably) scale to the entire cosmology, and it'd be wise to clarify that Kingdom Hearts and Pixar stuff is still unconnected to this stuff as far I could research (the biggest nod is Donald Duck briefly wearing a Buzz Lightyear costume for a quick gag in House of Mouse, which was before Disney bought Pixar and thus would be too tangential to mean much at all)
 
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Bobsican said:
BTW, any update on this? Looking around between House of Mouse, the Chibiverse, and Sofia the First, it does seem like a "Disneyverse" is explicitly intended, which in particular sticks out as Gravity Falls is specifically a part of this mess between the Chibiverse and GF referencing it back cosmology-wise in the Book of Bill, so this cosmology would already be poking at 1-B to 1-A. Marvel can also be tied in thanks to Big Hero 6 being a part of the Marvel cosmology, which appears prominently in Chibiverse.

That said, there's surprisingly few characters that (arguably) scale to the entire cosmology, and it'd be wise to clarify that Kingdom Hearts and Pixar stuff is still unconnected to this stuff as far I could research (the biggest nod is Donald Duck briefly wearing a Buzz Lightyear costume for a quick gag in House of Mouse, which was before Disney bought Pixar and thus would be too tangential to mean much at all)
Click to expand...
Part of me is a bit paranoid of what will happen if they do make Kingdom Hearts connected somehow. That series' lore is complicated enough as is...
 
Actually, there's quite a ton of nods to KH, but a good chunk aren't relevant, I'll post them here for posterity just in case however:


Given that Disneyland is taken as canonical thanks to Epic Mickey, one could certainly argue for KH existing somewhere, but of course the questions of exactly where and in what manner it's implemented to the Disneyverse are still up in the air, but could still be included for sufficiently broad cosmological statements (namely 2-A ones, as proper separate multiverses demand rather specific further assumptions)
 
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I don't think that KH is really canon to the main Mickey timeline imo. But let's break this down piece by piece.
Bobsican said:
Actually, there's quite a ton of nods to KH, but a good chunk aren't relevant, I'll post them here for posterity just in case however:

Click to expand...
I think this is more so KH fans just inserting little easter eggs when they can. If Mickey had outright said "ho ho! I remember when I used this fella to fight the Heartless", it would have more grounds to stand on. But it's just a silly little reference for people to latch onto. The same as a creator inserting a reference to their past work without straight up implying it takes place in the same universe.
Bobsican said:
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Again, this is the same as above. Though my personal opinion, rather like certain other video games in the Mickey timeline, this may just be the case of Kingdom Hearts existing as a game that Mickey has promoted at times and not an actual thing that has happened. Castle of Illusion is the only game that is actively implemented into the canon via Epic Mickey: Power of Illusion, but this is the exception and not the rule.
Bobsican said:
  • Some "asset" cameos in Chip and Dale Rescue Ranger 2022 (given this film isn't canon to other works this is more of a curiosity)
Click to expand...
Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers references everything. Even stuff from other companies. It would need something like the House of Mouse including Benny the Cab, Mickey's 40th Birthday special inserting Roger Rabbit as a main character, or Toontown existing in general in Disneyland to be considered canon.
Bobsican said:
Click to expand...
TG&MM is not canon to anything. There are non-canonical crossovers with the Haunted Mansion (which is really cool, they got my girl Connie back), but the show has made it clear that stuff outside of the show is not canon.
Bobsican said:
Click to expand...
I don't... really think I need to explain why this isn't canon lol.
Bobsican said:
Click to expand...
Same here. It's just video game promotion. They don't exactly speak or provide any specific canonical ties to Kingdom Hearts.
Bobsican said:
  • A statue featuring Data-Sora, Mickey, Donald, and Goofy
Click to expand...
I actually just had the chance to go to Ikspari last week, and I don't believe that it is as in-tune with the Disney Parks from a lore standpoint as anything else. It's a district where you can buy food like at Outback Steakhouse or Red Lobster. It's not a thing... in the parks. It's just a commercial Disney does to promote their products. Unless you're arguing Red Lobster is canon to Disney.
Bobsican said:
Click to expand...
Costume Actors aren't really a good source of canon. Except for specific Q&A's with say, Connie supplying the answers to questions about the Mansion lore and the ever-expanded upon story of SEA, most of what they say is just off the cuff, and they can get fired if their performances do not align with the company brand. The Alice actress was most likely -- just a fan.
Bobsican said:
Given that Disneyland is taken as canonical thanks to Epic Mickey, one could certainly argue for KH existing somewhere, but of course the questions of exactly where and in what manner it's implemented to the Disneyverse are still up in the air, but could still be included for sufficiently broad cosmological statements (namely 2-A ones, as proper separate multiverses demand rather specific further assumptions)
Click to expand...
As said in answer 2 -- I think if you're really leaning this route, it would definitely be that KH exists as a video game in-universe. The Mickey timeline is very meta in that everything he has ever done exists as a completed product, and while the Disney characters treat everything that has happened to them as real to them, they still very much acknowledge that they are movies. If the Disney characters existed as they did in Kingdom Hearts with altered storylines and different rules for their cosmology, it would be quite paradoxical.
 
DimeUhDozen said:
Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers references everything. Even stuff from other companies. It would need something like the House of Mouse including Benny the Cab, Mickey's 40th Birthday special inserting Roger Rabbit as a main character, or Toontown existing in general in Disneyland to be considered canon.
Click to expand...
Makes sense, TBH it doesn't seem like C&DRR2022 is meant to really be canon to anything either way.

DimeUhDozen said:
TG&MM is not canon to anything. There are non-canonical crossovers with the Haunted Mansion (which is really cool, they got my girl Connie back), but the show has made it clear that stuff outside of the show is not canon.
Click to expand...
I don't think that specifically denies anything outside the show as non-canon, given this is clarified to regard the "Theme Song Takeovers" in particular, TG&MM also appears in Chibiverse, thus confirming a shared cosmology, not that this is a major point for now for reasons you cover later on.

DimeUhDozen said:
I don't... really think I need to explain why this isn't canon lol.
Click to expand...
DimeUhDozen said:
Same here. It's just video game promotion. They don't exactly speak or provide any specific canonical ties to Kingdom Hearts.

I actually just had the chance to go to Ikspari last week, and I don't believe that it is as in-tune with the Disney Parks from a lore standpoint as anything else. It's a district where you can buy food like at Outback Steakhouse or Red Lobster. It's not a thing... in the parks. It's just a commercial Disney does to promote their products. Unless you're arguing Red Lobster is canon to Disney.

Costume Actors aren't really a good source of canon. Except for specific Q&A's with say, Connie supplying the answers to questions about the Mansion lore and the ever-expanded upon story of SEA, most of what they say is just off the cuff, and they can get fired if their performances do not align with the company brand. The Alice actress was most likely -- just a fan.
Click to expand...
Looking at the comments it seems like the actress was fired more so for gaining too much (positive) attention and thus detracting from the way the company wants to run the business, but ultimately these aren't a solid source either way for this purpose, yes.

DimeUhDozen said:
I don't think that KH is really canon to the main Mickey timeline imo. But let's break this down piece by piece.

I think this is more so KH fans just inserting little easter eggs when they can. If Mickey had outright said "ho ho! I remember when I used this fella to fight the Heartless", it would have more grounds to stand on. But it's just a silly little reference for people to latch onto. The same as a creator inserting a reference to their past work without straight up implying it takes place in the same universe.

Again, this is the same as above. Though my personal opinion, rather like certain other video games in the Mickey timeline, this may just be the case of Kingdom Hearts existing as a game that Mickey has promoted at times and not an actual thing that has happened. Castle of Illusion is the only game that is actively implemented into the canon via Epic Mickey: Power of Illusion, but this is the exception and not the rule.
Click to expand...
DimeUhDozen said:
As said in answer 2 -- I think if you're really leaning this route, it would definitely be that KH exists as a video game in-universe. The Mickey timeline is very meta in that everything he has ever done exists as a completed product, and while the Disney characters treat everything that has happened to them as real to them, they still very much acknowledge that they are movies. If the Disney characters existed as they did in Kingdom Hearts with altered storylines and different rules for their cosmology, it would be quite paradoxical.
Click to expand...
TBH this is some food for thought as KH plot-wise has leaned lately on metafictional junk, so this is quite a fair possibility down the line. Funnily enough this is inverted in the Toy Story incident as Buzz confuses Sora with another character from an in-universe video game, although it's then made a major plot point for the future of the series as explained in the blog post linked earlier in this paragraph.
 
Bobsican said:
I don't think that specifically denies anything outside the show as non-canon, given this is clarified to regard the "Theme Song Takeovers" in particular, TG&MM also appears in Chibiverse, thus confirming a shared cosmology, not that this is a major point for now for reasons you cover later on.
Click to expand...
This is only somewhat true because while it is canon to Gravity Falls' multiverse, the call is obviously meant to be a one-off crossover gag, and Chibiverse has very little canon reference to anything else in the Disney canon.
Bobsican said:
TBH this is some food for thought as KH plot-wise has leaned lately on metafictional junk, so this is quite a fair possibility down the line. Funnily enough this is inverted in the Toy Story incident as Buzz confuses Sora with another character from an in-universe video game, although it's then made a major plot point for the future of the series as explained in the blog post linked earlier in this paragraph.
Click to expand...
I don't deny that they both have metafictional stuff, but the way in which they deal with these concepts are not similar. The Mickey canon has always portrayed Toons on an equal plane of existence to humans (See: Roger Rabbit, House of Mouse, Once Upon a Studio), while again, Kingdom Hearts operates on different rules. To imply that they are the same veers into headcanon as opposed to evidence directly shown in the product. That would be a big reach, and I really doubt that Kingdom Hearts would go so far as to make Disney, the company, and their films/cartoons an actual part of the worldbuilding as the Mickey canon does.
 
Bobsican said:
BTW, any update on this? Looking around between House of Mouse, the Chibiverse, and Sofia the First, it does seem like a "Disneyverse" is explicitly intended, which in particular sticks out as Gravity Falls is specifically a part of this mess between the Chibiverse and GF referencing it back cosmology-wise in the Book of Bill, so this cosmology would already be poking at 1-B to 1-A. Marvel can also be tied in thanks to Big Hero 6 being a part of the Marvel cosmology, which appears prominently in Chibiverse.

That said, there's surprisingly few characters that (arguably) scale to the entire cosmology, and it'd be wise to clarify that Kingdom Hearts and Pixar stuff is still unconnected to this stuff as far I could research (the biggest nod is Donald Duck briefly wearing a Buzz Lightyear costume for a quick gag in House of Mouse, which was before Disney bought Pixar and thus would be too tangential to mean much at all)
Click to expand...
There is a lot of stuff from Wonderland Bakery about Aristollean Logic being ignored. So it is safe to say Wonderland operates beyond Aristollean / Classical Logic

Also I agree with DimeUhDozen and some of Bobiscan's points. Kingdom Hearts isn't stably connected to Disney cosmology. Im not saying it isn't possible, but we would need more evidence.

There is definitely evidence of Disney Cosmology including Marvel Comics and the like for sure. But that would only be noteworthy once we agree on who scales to it's entirety, which I am fine discussing in private the details on, maybe I a conversation thread together so we can hash out the details
 
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