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Subaru's soul isn't the only one affected; it also has to work on Roswaal, not to mention that the first part speaks generally about it being superior to space and time.
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Re:Zero Od CM type 1 shenanigans
- Thread starter SatellaTheWoE
- Start date
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i literally said the same thing as you, idk why you put yourself against me. I said it's type 3 concept or less (maybe not even a concept)
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- Thread starter
- #123
Sorry for the sudden drop in my activity here. I’ve had some IRL matters to deal with, which made it impractical for me to engage with this thread while giving it my full attention.
I’ll tally up the mod votes shortly, but before that, I’d like to add something. While I think it’s fine for the Od of physical beings to qualify for CM Type 3, the reasoning that the body can manipulate the Od is explicitly not applicable in the case of Spirits.
With that in mind, what would the staff in this thread think about Od being classified as Concept Type 1 or 2 specifically for Spirits, and Spirits only?
I’ll tally up the mod votes shortly, but before that, I’d like to add something. While I think it’s fine for the Od of physical beings to qualify for CM Type 3, the reasoning that the body can manipulate the Od is explicitly not applicable in the case of Spirits.
With that in mind, what would the staff in this thread think about Od being classified as Concept Type 1 or 2 specifically for Spirits, and Spirits only?
VortechsTG
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I feel like this information should be added to the op and discussed furthur because it was brought up fairly late and seems highly relevant to me.
Also I just fundamentally disagree with separating spirit od as a different type of concept. Everything points to it being the same thing. The information contained is just a bit different. Hell, spirits and humans can even have children together.
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- Thread starter
- #125
added (I will also add the stuff El watcher mentioned)
We don’t know the specifics of how Spirits and humans are able to have children together, especially since it was treated as an exception. We were also explicitly told that, under normal circumstances, Spirits and humans cannot reproduce with one another.
Vague stuff along with the sasageru if isnt even translated properly, we also got confirmation that a certain suwen spent his entire life trying to make babies with Ia and failed (sad)
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Doesn't it create a problem?
When somene's soul is destroyed, either by Yang Sword or Life Sword or just from a spirit like Puck, they are not forgotten nor their actions gets erased, no?
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- Thread starter
- #127
The presence of Type 1 Information within something does not mean that anyone capable of affecting it can also affect the Type 1 Information itself. Separate evidence/feats to manipulate Type 1 Information would still be required.
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Allow us to dm you pls
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Because it still follows under the Od cleansing thingy with the Hall of memories?
The one where they become completely forgotten is because it completely usurps even those mechanisms regarding Od via Authority hence they completely disappear
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That's what i'm asking.
How can that happen if Od itself is destroyed? There would be no Od to follow that cleansing mechanism.
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If souls have been destroyed in Re Zero without people being erased from history, then it means one of two things.
Its either a contradiction, and lessens the value of that supporting evidence, or nobody in the verse can really affect that aspect of the soul except for the Greeds I suppose.
Anyway, it wouldn't be type 1 concept, it would be type 2.
The Od defines ones existence and essence in the world, such that if you removed it, the history of you having ever existed would be erased.
However, the body still exists even when the name is taken away. So, it's again not really independent or showing a clear superiority as a concept. That person is still there physically, just forgotten and written out of reality. A type 1 concept being removed would also remove the thing it governs.
Its either a contradiction, and lessens the value of that supporting evidence, or nobody in the verse can really affect that aspect of the soul except for the Greeds I suppose.
Anyway, it wouldn't be type 1 concept, it would be type 2.
The Od defines ones existence and essence in the world, such that if you removed it, the history of you having ever existed would be erased.
However, the body still exists even when the name is taken away. So, it's again not really independent or showing a clear superiority as a concept. That person is still there physically, just forgotten and written out of reality. A type 1 concept being removed would also remove the thing it governs.
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Even it someone destroys the soul that doesn't mean destroying the contents inside the soul right? Julius says the soul contains your destiny but no one is going to get the ability to destroy destiny added to their profile for destroying the soul
It's kind of like the cup and the water. Destroying the cup (soul) is possible without destroying the water (soul, name, memories, and edtc)
It's kind of like the cup and the water. Destroying the cup (soul) is possible without destroying the water (soul, name, memories, and edtc)
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The authority of gluttony tears names and memories off the soul, which defines a person's existence in the world
Also as seen by this the authority of gluttony seems to let the user act as an agent of Od Laguna, so to me while name and memories are apart of the od/soul, only the gluttony's can specifically target those aspects.
And yea this would just be type 2 concept manipulation. From memory, Puck destroyed Melakura's od, but people still remember it, so he clearly didn't destroy it's name, so yea besides the gluttony's evidence seems lacking for type 2 concept manipulation.
“Please stop. If you throw yourself so bravely, it will be embarrassing. ーーSomething like that.”
Utilising the『Memories』which thought lovingly of the juvenile, she held the juvenile down through sheer force. With her sadistic ■ fulfilled, she ended up relaxing the edges of her mouth. As if giving further satisfaction to that desire to afflict belonging to Louis’ ■, frantically continuing to scream was Natsuki Subaru’s voice, as he twisted his body.
His form, earnestly calling for rage for the sake of someone elseーー upon that, incidentally, Louis tilted her head.
“ーーOnii-san, why do you remember the『Memories』we had stolen?”
It had been an unnatural response.
Perceiving that whilst holding him down, Louis greatly twisted her neck.
The『Memories』eaten by『Gluttony』did not remain extant within the person concerned, the『Names』eaten by『Gluttony』did not remain extant within other people. That is because the Authority tore them off from the『Soul』, which defined existence in the world.
The proper cleansing of the『Soul』by Od Lagna, which was practiced in the『Hall of Memories』ーー arbitrarily acting as its agent, and stealthily deceiving, plundering and harvesting was what the Authority of『Gluttony』was.
Therefore, the『Memories』and『Names』snavelled by『Gluttony』did not remain extant within anyone. Restrictively, though there had been ones who had only『Memories』, only『Names』stolen away, respective negative effects got applied.
If the『Memories』were stolen then said person, if the『Name』was stolen then other people, could no longer remember the person concerned. That could not be altered as long as the disposition of the『Soul』remained within the protection of Od Lagna.
Yet, Natsuki Subaru did remember.
The ingredient, the soul which had been rendered naked, having both sides of『Memories』and『Name』gotten stolen.
Despite not being supposed to be able to remember it. Why, why, whyーー.-Arc 6, Chapter 75
Utilising the『Memories』which thought lovingly of the juvenile, she held the juvenile down through sheer force. With her sadistic ■ fulfilled, she ended up relaxing the edges of her mouth. As if giving further satisfaction to that desire to afflict belonging to Louis’ ■, frantically continuing to scream was Natsuki Subaru’s voice, as he twisted his body.
His form, earnestly calling for rage for the sake of someone elseーー upon that, incidentally, Louis tilted her head.
“ーーOnii-san, why do you remember the『Memories』we had stolen?”
It had been an unnatural response.
Perceiving that whilst holding him down, Louis greatly twisted her neck.
The『Memories』eaten by『Gluttony』did not remain extant within the person concerned, the『Names』eaten by『Gluttony』did not remain extant within other people. That is because the Authority tore them off from the『Soul』, which defined existence in the world.
The proper cleansing of the『Soul』by Od Lagna, which was practiced in the『Hall of Memories』ーー arbitrarily acting as its agent, and stealthily deceiving, plundering and harvesting was what the Authority of『Gluttony』was.
Therefore, the『Memories』and『Names』snavelled by『Gluttony』did not remain extant within anyone. Restrictively, though there had been ones who had only『Memories』, only『Names』stolen away, respective negative effects got applied.
If the『Memories』were stolen then said person, if the『Name』was stolen then other people, could no longer remember the person concerned. That could not be altered as long as the disposition of the『Soul』remained within the protection of Od Lagna.
Yet, Natsuki Subaru did remember.
The ingredient, the soul which had been rendered naked, having both sides of『Memories』and『Name』gotten stolen.
Despite not being supposed to be able to remember it. Why, why, whyーー.-Arc 6, Chapter 75
Also as seen by this the authority of gluttony seems to let the user act as an agent of Od Laguna, so to me while name and memories are apart of the od/soul, only the gluttony's can specifically target those aspects.
And yea this would just be type 2 concept manipulation. From memory, Puck destroyed Melakura's od, but people still remember it, so he clearly didn't destroy it's name, so yea besides the gluttony's evidence seems lacking for type 2 concept manipulation.
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At best i can see Name being Type 3 concept, for it to be type 2, altering Name should affect every name in the verse which in turn affect the existence of all being in the verse
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??????
No. That's not true. Name is a person's concept, not the concept of names as a universal constant.
And it universally affects the person it governs, which is what matters for type 2.
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A name isn't just 1 thing, there are as many names as there are people, but that shouldn't make them any lesser of a concept, I can think of other verses like authorities in isekai at peace where while all authorities are conceptual, and they all fall under the authorities of the 3 supreme gods, ie the concept of night is under the concept of sky, which is under the concept of life governed by the God of Life.
In this case, what should matter is what happens when a name is erased ie Julius, is that it is erased from everyone else in the world, which shows it is a "universal" concept, it isn't just limited to a single person for example.
In this case, what should matter is what happens when a name is erased ie Julius, is that it is erased from everyone else in the world, which shows it is a "universal" concept, it isn't just limited to a single person for example.
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Bump
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I don't think there is any extra info or anything.
So can we make a conclusion please?
So can we make a conclusion please?
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Bump
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What's left to do here? Altering names=type 2 concept manipulation, and then regular manipulation of the od is type 3? Changing od, not only changes the physical body, but also a person's mental state, so the argument would be od is a personal concept.
I am neutral on the latter, and agree with the former.
I am neutral on the latter, and agree with the former.
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Change of the body itself also changes the soul. It basically works both way. I think it might be a different type of connection?
Also;
Does this part even refer to Od? He saw the gap between life and death, not that he learned "Od" is the true essence of life and soul or anything, no?
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I thought Od=Soul?
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Yes. But the text doesn't talk about Od or Soul being the true essence or something. He simply saw the gap between life and death and it was like uncovering the true nature/essence of life and soul, nothing like "Od" itself being the true essence of those.
Basically, i don't really see any Od mention of it being the true essence or anything here.
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I have read everything, and my opinion remains unchanged: Od qualifies as a Lesser Fundamental. Type-3 is the safest, so I'm confused as to why this is considered Type-1 instead. Additionally, the Dragon Sword Reid, Yang Sword, Aeon Sword, Life Sword, and Olbart's Technique will be labeled as CM Type-3
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I'm more inclined to agree that "names" should be considered fundamental information there.
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Staff are needed, as @Vietthai96 is not convinced on Type 3 Od, and Reiner04 has since retired...
Leaving you as the only staff to agree with Type 3 concept.
