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Shattering All Limits with Tier 0 Lord of Mysteries

SuperNova55555 said:
It’s so obvious

But sure, I can’t provide a meaningful differentiating factor if that’s what you want.
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I'm not sure how it's obvious if you can't provide an account for your proposition being true, but nonetheless glad you conceded that you cannot and so I believe your word regarding Chaos being Tier 0 can be discounted since it fails to satisfy New Relevance Alternative Theory. In your interest to look into this, @Qawsedf234. Anyway, do you possess the means to refute the contentions regarding Symbolisms or will you appeal to popularity again?
 
May_Alter said:
I'm not sure how it's obvious
Click to expand...
I believe you misunderstood what is meant by that section. Don’t mind it. 😉

May_Alter said:
Anyway, do you possess the means to rebuke the contentions regarding Symbolisms or will you appeal to popularity again?
Click to expand...
I mean, for the second time, change is not a disqualifier for Type 1. You may or may not have a point with the T0 in regards to the fact that it does utilize Pure Act as a sort-of standard for it but it’s just not true for H1A+. What you think it is becomes irrelevant in that it just does not equate to what if actually is. All that matters is a character being capable of actualizing any possible world of albeit a very unqualified modal scope. That’s quite literally all that the standard is.

If you have some pre-conceived notion of what you think the TS might imply, I assure you that it was not in the wiki’s thought process when it was being made.

And to actually respond to your questions:

1) Fragmented subdivisions is just not overly-qualified language on the author’s part. He uses terms like “emanations” to refer to the same principle too. Because the powers in question are just referring to lesser embodiments of the same Symbols, since the path to attaining further powers is just further dissolution into the Creator itself. If you disagree with characters being able to progressively unify and embody the same concept at different stages, that’s a whole other thing.

2) Sefirot are collections of Symbols. In it being divided is explicitly not the Symbols themselves being divided. A Sefirot just represents the object that embodies a variety of symbols.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
You have not. To get to High 1-A+ you have to show that a singular object embodies the idea of all possible worlds
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One doesn't need to do such to get the resulting tier; all possible worlds are the easiest way to do it, but what the tier is, in essence, is the maximally expressable tier by way of 1-A and 1-A-like extensions (that being the transcendence of all the qualities which ground lesser realities, and in a sense then high 1-A+ 2 is the very being of quality itself), with 0 being beyond such by way of being beyond differentation as a whole and stuff that's not fully relevant to this thread.
By the very nature of Symbols they do qualify for such a state as the maximally expressible thing, with the basis of the argument not being "Oh these are like the forms" but instead what Supernova said here
SuperNova55555 said:
In Symbolism, their Knowledge (Truth) is the same as their Existence (Being). Because of that, to attain their Knowledge of them is tantamount to attaining Existence of them, which is why you have to “unify” into them. If you retained Individuality and Self/Ego (the “I”), you would dualize yourself from them, and thus be incapable of apprehending them. Because of this, you “dissolve” into it, becoming “one” with it, and attaining Knowledge of them through Being them. This is why it is an “experience”.

But there’s an issue: things like discursive language and sensory experience are grounded on the division between the Thinker and Thought. If I attain sense-data of an apple or follow the logical steps of mathematical formulas for example, there’s a division between the Knowledge of the object and its Existence. But then this means that in the case that the universal’s Knowledge and Being are numerically identical, it cannot be that either the aforementioned two modes of thinking apply to it.

Which leads to further issue that if discursive language is not applicable to it, then Symbols cannot be properly talked about… which, once again, is exactly what happens: they are indescribable, cannot be conveyed and undiscussable.

There is no reason to follow any schools of thought. This is literally just (not so) simple ass metaphysics.
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The forms are used as a point of comparison for something that holds these qualities that make them high 1-A+ (for the forms within their context are such a tier), as to how these qualities behave within said system, and then pointing out that these things express the same qualities in the same way
Qawsedf234 said:
But then you still have Chaos, which predates the creator waking up and reality. For the Original Creator to be High 1-A+ Chaos would be required as Tier 0. Chaos being the reset point as reality split and converges doesn't seem Tier 0 to me. It's being split and affected by things without being beyond them like with Nirvana/transcending the Samsara.
Click to expand...
Chaos is not affected by things being split and converging; it is the very cause of things doing so to begin with. The OC is the thing to which reality is split from and converges into.
Qawsedf234 said:
This is just a higher degree of High 1-A. I don't see High 1-A+ being valid, since the manipulation of all of reality is only done through the act of complete unification with the Creator.
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Not only are they directly split off from the creator, they are the very reasoning for the tier to begin with, and one does not unify with the creator to manipulate reality, the dissolution of the I of the self and the I of the universe is very specifically symbolism, it brings one to the astral world.
Any form of unification with the OC only happens as a result of Termination rejoining everything, not Cogitation
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Now, it’s pretty clear that there’s no actual “Dao” stand-in present, at least not from what the OP has provided in this CRT. However, everything else is fairly equivalent.
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Are we just ignoring Chaos being the 0 or?
Because that's what The Tao is within the sequence, it is Tao -> The One -> The Two -> The Three
Which is what the 0, and thus chaos, is equivalent to here

The rest kinda just, not falls apart, but ceases to be as grounded with the idea of Chaos not being the Tao, and thus everything else moves up as a result
 
SuperNova55555 said:
I mean, for the second time, change is not a disqualifier for Type 1. You may or may not have a point with the T0 in regards to the fact that it does utilize Pure Act as a sort-of standard for it but it’s just not true for H1A+. What you think it is becomes irrelevant in that it just does not equate to what if actually is. All that matters is a character being capable of actualizing any possible world of albeit a very unqualified modal scope. That’s quite literally all that the standard is.

If you have some pre-conceived notion of what you think the TS might imply, I assure you that it was not in the wiki’s thought process when it was being made.
Click to expand...
To add onto this, High 1-A+ beings are very expressly allowed to change, as one could see with the Star Maker's first key
Whose nature is very expressly temporal and finite, and changes throughout the duration of the novel, and whose thread was evaluated by Ultima himself if had any questions as to the validity of it's evaluations

Though further clarification, such a principle only applies to beings with type 1 of the tier, beings with type 2 of the tier are unchanging by nature of them encompassing/grounding all possible worlds, and thus any potential change they could experience would result in a contradiction as anything that could affect all possible worlds must itself be a possible world (ignoring 0 for a second, which can "create" such), and the contradiction present there should be clear (which is to why I was not particularly pushing for type 2 earlier, seeing as the could all be expressly changed and whatnot)
 
SuperNova55555 said:
I mean, for the second time, change is not a disqualifier for Type 1. You may or may not have a point with the T0 in regards to the fact that it does utilize Pure Act as a sort-of standard for it but it’s just not true for H1A+. What you think it is becomes irrelevant in that it just does not equate to what if actually is. All that matters is a character being capable of actualizing any possible world of albeit a very unqualified modal scope. That’s quite literally all that the standard is.
Click to expand...
No no, I have a very clear point. The page of Tier 0 explicitly mentions Pure Act as a requirement which is the same criterion you use to elevate Chaos to that level. Your quotation regarding H1-A+ Type 1's standards are indeed irrelevant to my point as well, for what is meant to be H1-A+ Type 1 in this case is not a "character", it is a principle. So you have provided a non-point.

To put it plainly so you may understand, all propositions regarding possible worlds are in the form of multiplicity which is grounded by Forms/Symbolisms. But here, the Forms/Symbolisms are changing and thus we are lead to the aforementioned absurdity (of them being multiplicity themselves), thus they cannot be serving that role and thus aren't necessary and so not H1-A+ Type 1.
SuperNova55555 said:
If you have some pre-conceived notion of what you think the TS might imply, I assure you that it was not in the wiki’s thought process when it was being made.
Click to expand...
Not a point yet again, it does not matter what I intended to speak when I spoke something wholly different. For example, I meant to say "The car is red" but I said "The car is blue"
SuperNova55555 said:
1) Fragmented subdivisions is just not overly-qualified language on the author’s part. He uses terms like “emanations” to refer to the same principle too. Because the powers in question are just referring to lesser embodiments of the same Symbols, since the path to attaining further powers is just further dissolution into the Creator itself.

2) Sefirot are collections of Symbols. In it being divided is explicitly not the Symbols themselves being divided. A Sefirot just represents the object that embodies a variety of symbols.
Click to expand...
Odd as to why you're contending this if you were so sure of change not being an issue, hmm... Please provide non-anecdotal evidence, also you're simply contradicting yourself.

1) implies that Symbolisms are emanations of Sefirots, thus they ground Symbolisms, (2) yet them being changed doesn't imply Symbolisms being changed and that Symbolisms are parts of Sefirots (and thus more fundamental than Sefirots)?

Either Sefirots do ground them or they do not and are mere summations of Symbolisms either way leads to problems. How can there be a "collection" of things that can be "divided", if the things in question are abstract, surely you do not believe that you can literally divide the number 7 and the number 8 from the set of 7 & 8, which is exactly what happens here and thus I am led to the conclusion which I have been arguing for.
 
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Deonment said:
To add onto this, High 1-A+ beings are very expressly allowed to change, as one could see with the Star Maker's first key
Whose nature is very expressly temporal and finite, and changes throughout the duration of the novel, and whose thread was evaluated by Ultima himself if had any questions as to the validity of it's evaluations
Click to expand...
Not relevant to the point being made, refer to the Triangularity-Triangular analogy I mentioned to justify the stance.
 
May_Alter said:
1) implies that Symbolisms are emanations of Sefirots, thus they ground Symbolisms, (2) yet them being changed doesn't imply Symbolisms being changed?
Click to expand...
Symbols aren’t emanations of Sefirot. I’m not sure where you got that.

The scan is referring to powers and authority which is about the lower sequences.

As in, Sefirot embody a collection of Symbols, whereas Sequences 9 to 0 are emanations of that. At none of those levels are Symbols located in.

May_Alter said:
Either Sefirots do ground them or they do not and are mere summations of Symbolisms either way leads to problems. How can there be a "collection" of things that can be "divided", if the things in question are abstract, surely you do not believe that you can literally divide the number 7 and the number 8 from the set of 7 & 8, which is exactly what happens here and thus I am led to the conclusion which I have been arguing for.
Click to expand...
Again, because it is not a literal summation of things. There are a couple of statements regarding things manifesting or completing Symbols, which is naturally not talking about the Symbol as-is, since it also explicitly exists prior to that. They’re just allegories for embodying it.

Again, it’s why things like Great Old Ones are called “symbols” even if explicitly different from the actual symbol. Because at some level you become indistinguishable vis-à-vis embodying it.

It’s also why Symbols don’t even properly exist in the Astral World itself
“Regardless of the spirit world or the illusory cosmos, as well as the unknown realms, they are beyond our sensory world.
Click to expand...

Here, illusory cosmos refers to, well:
“Therefore, the illusory cosmos represents the astral world. The bright star is a particular existence in the astral world? I've always suspected that the astral world is where the true gods reside. Then, this imagery which represents the Primordial Moon isn't something unacceptable... Klein didn't think further as he recalled the details of the past few days while awaiting the results of his subordinates' investigations.”
Click to expand...
Because even at that level, all that exists are just representations.

Look at this for example:
Paragon: Since the Paragon is the Embodiment of Essence, all atoms in the cosmos would become Hungry' and would converge, triggering continuous nuclear fusion everywhere, leading to the universe's living environment becoming extremely hostile to life.
Click to expand...
If the Primordial Hunger absorbs the embodiment of Essence, then it leads to the universe’s atoms acting as such. Strange, both these concepts exist prior to this, so how come things only change after someone embodies them. Hmm.

Q2: What is the symbol of separation?

Wasn't it said earlier that no Outer Deity symbolizes separation (because they cannot exist under the influence of separation)?

CF: No Outer Deity exists as a symbol of separation, but there is a symbol of separation. Otherwise, how would Beyonder characteristics separate? As for how to utilize this symbol, the simplest idea is to "die" once, because symbols of termination naturally carry some separation (e.g., the fall of a True God leads to the disintegration and scattering of Beyonder characteristics).

This temporarily causes one's own characteristics to die or fall dormant, allowing a switch under such conditions. However, this is very dangerous and will most likely result in actual death.
Click to expand...
Strange. A Symbol of Separation exists, yet there’s no corresponding GOO nor Sefirot. To add to this, it also mentions Termination, but umm:

“The symbolism of Termination—opposing the symbolism of Genesis—has appeared. This is not supposed to happen. The universe has not yet reached its end, and the Fourth Pillar cannot be born… Eternal Darkness Amanises's gaze suddenly froze.

She thought of a possibility.

Lumian's body not only contained the powers that composed the Fourth Pillar but also held the symbolisms of the Monarch of Decay and the masculine and feminine aspects of the mirrored Original Creator. When the power representing Termination collided with the feminine and masculine aspects of the mirrored Original Creator, which now finally had the chance to interact during this destruction, there was a possibility for the Termination power to sublimate into Termination symbolism! It had to be known that those symbolisms included "anything that can go wrong will go wrong.”
Click to expand...
So Termination hasn’t appeared yet, but still simultaneously exists? How odd.

May_Alter said:
Odd as to why you're contending this if you were so sure of change not being an issue, hmm...
Click to expand...
Because it’s not in my interest to argue on something which doesn’t immediately contradict any standard, really.
 
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SuperNova55555 said:
Symbols aren’t emanations of Sefirot. I’m not sure where you got that.
Click to expand...
Fragmented subdivisions is just not overly-qualified language on the author’s part. He uses terms like “emanations” to refer to the same principle too.
Click to expand...
Silly me, meant to say Sefirah.
SuperNova55555 said:
There are a couple of statements regarding things manifesting or completing Symbols, which is naturally not talking about the Symbol as-is, since it also explicitly exists prior to that.
Click to expand...
This is just question-begging, try addressing it another way instead of re-asserting that which is in question.
SuperNova55555 said:
Because it’s not in my interest to argue on something which doesn’t immediately contradict any standard, really.
Click to expand...
Try re-reading that.

I'm not exactly sure how the rest of it is, relevant to my point of it not-being H1-A+ Type 1. I'd like for you to clarify on that; how the scans you provide necessitate that per se.
 
May_Alter said:
Silly me, meant to say Sefirah.

This is just question-begging, try addressing it another way instead of re-asserting that which is in question.

Try re-reading that.

I'm not exactly sure how the rest of it is, relevant to my point of it not-being H1-A+ Type 1. I'd like for you to clarify on that; how the scans you provide necessitate that per se.
Click to expand...
You could’ve actually read my response instead of writing jackall.

Lemme dumb it down real quick.

If, for example, a Great Old One, a being that merely embodies a Symbol, embodies additional Symbols and then causes universal change that way, is not itself a Symbol, then can I ask: what is the conceived contradiction with it happening to Sefirot? An object that just as well embodies such Symbols?

So the application of a Symbol is revealed through something Symbolizing it, via representation. As such, if the object symbolizing it universally is changed, such is the application.
 
SuperNova55555 said:
You could’ve actually read my response instead of writing jackall.

Lemme dumb it down real quick.

If, for example, a Great Old One, a being that merely embodies a Symbol, embodies additional Symbols and then causes universal change that way, is not itself a Symbol, then can I ask: what is the conceived contradiction with it happening to Sefirot? An object that just as well embodies such Symbols?

So the application of a Symbol is revealed through something Symbolizing it, via representation. As such, if the object symbolizing it universally is changed, such is the application.
Click to expand...
May_Alter said:
Silly me, meant to say Sefirah.
Click to expand...
So rude... hurt my precious feelings.
 
May_Alter said:
My my, relax. This is VSBattles.com, a place where one indulges in hobbies. Please prove the terms were used equivocally as you so claim in that specific context.
Click to expand...
As the planet was torn into fragments in an instant, the three-headed, three-bodied, six-armed Lumian remained completely unaffected.


How could calamity itself ever be harmed by Disaster?
Click to expand...
W-whoa? Is that Calamity itself boxing and stuff?? B-But he only embodies it? How is he the concept itself? Is the author stupid?

“I can only tell you that the Celestial Worthy is the embodiment of Sefirah Castle, the primordial God Almighty is the symbol of the Chaos Sea, and the other sefirot include the City of Calamity of the Hunter and Demoness pathways, the River of Eternal Darkness of the Sleepless, Warrior, and Corpse Collector pathways, the Knowledge Moor of the Mystery Pryer and Savant pathways, and the Key of Light of the Fate pathway—all of these originate from the Original Creator.”
Click to expand...
Whaaa? How is God Almighty the Symbol of the Sefirot? Isn’t Symbolism prior? Strangeee.

Man. If only there was a very clear-cut way of reconciling this. ☹️
What we obtain are simply indescribable experiences and direct revelations. They also appear as abstract characters or pictorial symbols. These symbols represent different items and different meanings.
Click to expand...
 
Yea man, Truth is non-dual, but also actually dualized. 🤭

Truth: "They" are the Truth and everything within the Gray areas shall be defined by "Them"; Light is too extreme, Darkness is too Corrupt. Order is too rigid, and Shadows are too Distorted—Grayness is the only ultimate Truth of the universe.
Click to expand...
 
“So it can contain the river water of the River of Eternal Darkness? Yes, the river water of the River of Eternal Darkness is definitely not river water in the true sense of the phrase, but an abstract concept or symbol. Klein nodded in thought and threw the golden bird-shaped accessory into Sefirah Castle, sealing it in the junk pile to prevent any unnecessary accidents.”
Click to expand...
Whoa man, the river water of the Sefirot is a symbol? The river water Klein literally goes and touches? How could that possibly be 😢 but yea man, that’s DEFINITELY the universal itself.
 
May_Alter said:
Whatever that contends, it is still more ontologically parsimonious to believe in my conclusion so it is simply better to believe in such. I have work to do now, unfortunately that means I cannot cackle anymore whilst reading this. I'll just leave it up to the evaluators to evaluate whether H1-A+ Type 1 Symbols makes sense, Tier 0 axiomatically doesn't.
Click to expand...
We all know you just got no response, Pii 🤭
 
SuperNova55555 said:
Conclusions:
  • Symbol of Chaos / Primordial Chaos: 11-C - Low Hypoverse Level
    • + Acausality Type 42 Peak refrenece ngl
  • Original Creator: 11-A - High Hypoverse level
  • Godhood: 11-A - High Hypoverse level
  • Astral World / Symbolism / Sefirot: 11-A - High Hypoverse level
Click to expand...
Corrected it based on my dream, anyway agree with these proposed values.
 
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