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Plus Caim and Angelus killed the Queen Beast, and also Zero and Mikhail were unable to kill a Wyrm, and Caim and Angelus killed a similar one if not the same one seemingly without too much trouble. And Nowe was able to fight Caim, Gismor held his own somewhat against Nowe, and Urick held his own a bit against Caim.

It should also be noted that Manah should compare as well. Nowe states in ending 3 that Manah's power is energising him, and his tone implies it's significant. In addition, when Nowe and Legna were beating the Bone Casket it took Manah and used her power against them, and in the end she destroyed it from inside. Keeping in mind this is adult Manah who has resisted the possession of God, so she is likely stronger than her kid self. And It's also notable that Nowe only says Manah is energising him in the ending where she has absorbed the Bone Casket, indicating she gained power from it.

When it comes to Manah, we should also consider that she seems to be possessed by the Queen Beast. It emerges only when she is killed, and in Drakengard 2 ending 3 when the Bone Casket comes at her she says that she recognises the being behind it, that its "womb" was warm, and that she remembered it well but wouldn't become one with it again. That possession, and anything it left behind afterwards, might already result in more power than brother One's words would imply. It's clear kid Manah isn't that strong, but adult Manah, especially in ending 3, should be.

I just sent my friend a message asking them to look for as many Drakengard and Nier guides as possible. I also told them to look for the tales and side stories other than the ones I already got from them. I can send you those via email if you like, but I don't think they'll help. I also mentioned SinoAlice to them.

The flower is actually >>> the queen beast. Zero and Mikhail killed the wyrm (and it was boosted by the power of the song), they just needed the watcher Decadus summoned to keep it from teleporting everywhere, the wyrm Caim and Angelus killed isn't as strong. IIRC from Drakengard 2, everyone got their shit stomped by Caim, there was no way to defeat him to the point he himself had to let them kill Angelus to defeat him.

Also, Michael is stated several times to be the strongest dragon, Gabriella confirms this (kinda) and he got rekt by Bartas and Gabriel, Mikhail killed Gabriel in 1 ending and kept up with him and the flower in the last ending. The canon ending has him dying to poison and then dying again because of the Pact Partner rules.

The other stuff from D2 I'm meh since I don't remember much from it.

IIRC Manah is like the emissary for them to manifest (like the power of the song was to the intoners), it is not that she is possessed by the QB but rather she acts like the conduit and once its broken they can flood the world. This happens in the utahime 5 when the intoners die and the black flower ressurects them, the angels start flooding and destroying the world. Still, resisting possession is just that, a resistance and not power and I very much doubt she will scale to brother One, let alone above him. His words are something like "This song is not even a fraction of my sister's", his power as a second generation intoner is massively outclassed by the sisters since they had the flower. Manah is like his grandkid and his twin brother is the one that got the magic potential, not her.

We also need someone to either play Reincarnation or get playthroughs and files since it devolves in different worlds and some other stuff like that.

In all honesty, it seems that the Queen Beast is the same as the flower. Same colour, same kind of abilities, no human features, larger, and all in one body instead of six smaller ones joined together. They even both fight by singing a deadly song, and they were both intended to destroy the world, with both being associated with time. It seems likely the Queen Beast is the flower and the Intoners having changed form, to be honest, or even some messed up parallel universe version of them. There's even a fan theory that the Queen Beast is Zero.

The way Intoners are always assumed by everyone to be the strongest beings, untouchable by everything and everyone else, always seemed uncertain to me, especially when the Queen Beast seems to bring the same kind of abilities and even the same boss fight to the table. Is there really solid proof that Zero is more physically powerful than Caim (I know she resurrects and he doesn't), and that the flower is more powerful than the Queen Beast, and not the same being?

I should point out that Manah doesn't just resist the possession of the Bone Casket. She absorbs it. And in this particular case resistance to the possession does indicate increased strength, when D1 Manah is saying annoying crap in two voices and essentially has some evil being's hand up her butt working her like an obnoxious little puppet, while D2 Manah is now able to resist it and eventually even consume the object used in a very direct attempt to control her.

Regarding D2, at very least Nowe scales to Caim. After their fight Caim is the one down on one knee, it's just he recovers faster and turns the fight around. Urick also pushed Caim off a cliff, and Nowe had a little trouble against Gismor afterwards.

As long as Reincarnation isn't too long it might be possible. I'll check what it is.

The queen is a watcher, they aren't the same as the flower unless we get some clear statement about it. Many people (including myself) think the same theory.

Because thats the truth? We don't have any direct scaling but lore alone tells you the utahime were a force that could change the world as they please, if we can go with feats and statements they also have done some other crazy shit. The flower that is stated to destroy the world several times, Zero and Michael blasted the black flower while former was at half strength, the timelines with the flower need to be sealed away in fear of it ******* the other ones, Michael and his multiple statements of being the strongest dragon and his reincarnation doing better against the monster that killed him, brother one being not even a fraction of a real intoner and his descendants barely having any power, etc. IIRC Brother One throws hands with Legna all the time and legna was already in his chaos form. To top it all off there is the hyper mode that basically makes them gods, Bartas destroyed both gabriella and baby one in a fight but got utterly stomped by the intoner mode One. I mean, it could but we don't have any proof to say the queen is the same as the flower, it's just a theory, more so since Her Inflorescence looks like Zero did when she fully manifested the flower.

It could be fine but we would need the scans and all that.

Ehhh, we shall see. We need to get everything in order before we start discussing all that after all.

It's still getting updates and chapters I think, so yeah, it will be long, same with SINoALICE

That's the thing though, aren't both the flower and the Queen Beast stated to destroy the world using similar means? There's also the fact that even Zero's flower is itself just a fragment of the black flower, not the full thing. Michael was certainly the strongest dragon there, but there is the issue that both Legna and especially Angelus grow stronger later, after that statement is made.

I should clarify, I'm not suggesting that everyone is as strong as the Intoners. I'm suggesting that certain specific characters like Caim, Angelus, Nowe and D2 Legna (One fought Legna before Legna became a pact partner or "attained enlightenment" to become a holy dragon) have grown strong enough to compare.

For what it's worth, the abilities I listed in the previous thread are somewhat useful too. If I start making small videos of abilities in action to send you would that work?

Still waiting for a reply from my friend. They're not as active as they used to be.

Nah, the Queen Beast was going to destroy the world consuming the primordial time or something like that. It was a prep thing and Caim/Angelus defeated it when it had all that power ready. The thing with the black flower is that Zero and Michael destroyed it in the utahime 5 manga, there is only the flower inside the intoners after that. Michael is stated to be like 2000 years younger and he knows both Legna and Angelus yet he claims all he claims, also if growing stronger is an argument then base Mikhail can keep up and kills Gabriel in one of the endings.

The only ones that would scale would be Caim and Chaos Angelus from ending E since that's when they fight the Queen Beast when she has consumed the time of times. Since D2 follows D1 Ending A then they will only scale to their best showings there. We don't have a way to compare the characters from D2 to the queen beast or the intoners, let alone to Zero who is one of the strongest characters. IIRC in ending B Caim and 3rd stage Angelus barely keep up with the ****** form of Furiae who themselves aren't even on the watchers level, then in ending C Caim fights Chaos Angelus who is being corrupted by (the) God(s), Later in ending D they die to the watchers and only in ending E is when they scale to the Queen. Now that I remember... there is a certain ending in D2 when the Dragons decide to go and fight (the) God(s), in that ending Nowe and Legna should probably scale since (the) God(s) made the dragons, the flower and the watchers.

A sandbox would be better, we can start working on profiles and all that. First we need to figure out the cosmology tho, terms, common abilities and races.

Don't worry, I'm lazy (I should have started this last year) enough to not do a thing, I'm basically waiting for a friend to not be busy and to force me into doing what needs to be done.

Aren't the Queen Beast and flower feats both Low 2-C via consuming all of time? Regarding the dragons, it seems as if Mikhail reached the level Michael had been at, and Angelus in her Chaos form should compare. Mikhail certainly seemed to habe surpassed the Intoners, beating all six of them and the flower as well. It seems the only beings that can fight Intoners are dragons and Watchers, at least until certain humans power up to that level.

I've actually often thought that Caim and Angelus deserved a second key for when Angelus is in Chaos form. Even the on-screen feat where the Queen Beast makes a giant crystal substance that covers Europe and reaches into the atmosphere seemed higher than the almost mountain level feat Manah performed. I should point out however, that when Angelus killed Valkyrie Furiae, Angelus was actually only in her second form, not her third. And Furiae had easily killed Inuart who was pacted to Legna, which means there's something of a scaling chain there. Pre-pact Legna < post-pact Legna << Valkyrie Furiae < form 2 Angelus. As for D2's second ending, Nowe and Legna are going after God, but it's hard to be sure of the outcome. There's also the fact that the nameless who are their true enemy actually means the Watchers, which raises the question of whether the plan is to kill God himself or just the Watchers, taking their place as God's army.

The abilities I found were probably common abilities, so they might help. Eventually we might be able to add them to the sandbox. I just recorded a video suggesting non-physical interaction too.

We'll see what my friend can do. I probably will receive at least a couple game guides from them.

The queen beast is (and she was erasing the world) so she only scales with "the time", the flower is stated several times to be able to destroy the world and the old world consideres it a threat to the point they need to seal timelines that have it so they can contain it. That's why Mikhail scales, because he beat the flower, since there isn't any statement that crosscales Mikhail or Michal to Angelus or Legna we can't scale them, assuming they scale because Angelus and Legna reached other forms is wack too, no proof.

C&A barely kill Furiae in B, Caim kills Chaos Angelus in C, they got mutilated by the baby watchers in D and fought the queen in E. In any case they need several keys for the 5 endings and they also seem to be going in order of power too since first is manah then the valkyrie then chaos, watchers and finally the queen. The thing you are saying wasn't made by the queen beast, Manah's brother did it using the "time" since he had it for making a pact and being stuck in time. It doesn't scale to anyone tho since it is a time stop thing like move.

My bad there, I remembered it was the third form. Also, Angelus and Caim barely killed Furiae, her dialogue says something about being scared and how her flames can't burn her. Then the whole army of them rises and we know they are ******. Top top it off they shouldn't be stronger than the watchers.

About D2 ending, we can probably scale Nowe and Legna in the endings that are set off to kill the watchers/god as a "likely" or "possibly"

That would be awsome, specially if they can get the D3 guides since we need info about the old world, also, I heard there is an interview when they say the Kingdom of Night (the dark side of earth in Automata) is the one that created Accord and that shit, if real, brings more problems than answers.

Aren't both those feats low 2-C for destroying a timeline though? You did say above that both feats were Low 2-C and that the Queen Beast scales to the flower at least somewhat. There's also another concern. The flower is a fragment of the black flower, and the flower created Zero, and yet Zero destroyed the black flower, even though in theory she shouldn't be able to. Doesn't this already tell us that "fragments" of the flower can surpass the original? I'm well aware there's a lack of feats for most characters, but it does seem to tell us that it's possible for those whose power comes from pieces of something to surpass that original something. I know scaling Caim and Angelus directly to the flower is impossible, I'm just saying from a lore perspective it's not impossible for a human to grow as strong as an Intoner.

Still, the Valkyrie easily killed Inuart, so it should be stronger than post-pact Legna, who should be stronger than before his pact. And right before that Angelus (form 2) fights Legna and states that Legna is weak. So if brother One was a match for pre-pact Legna, then there's every chance ending 2 form 2 Angelus is his equal or stronger. And he was shown to be able to kill Zero by stabbing her with a special weapon, so even though he's weaker, I'm not sure it's by that much.

Regarding D2 E2, would we scale Nowe and Legna to the Watchers or to God, keeping in mind God likely created the black flower effortlessly and scales far above it?

I asked them to look for any Drakengard and Nier guides they could find. They're another person who finished Drakengard 1 and 2, and I think they also finished Drakengard 3 and Nier. I don't know if they finished Automata. So yeah, they already have knowledge which will help to find the guides. It just might take a while.

Yeah, the difference being the Queen needs Time to pull it off while the flower doesn't. I mean, yeah the Queen should somewhat scale. Zero and her white flower nuking the the black flower is a problem as long as you think the black flower is stronger, we know the black flower created the intoners and zero and the white flower but nothing else moreover the flower in the Nier world is a white flower too and to top it off Her Inflorescence is made from white flowers. Idk, it needs a lot of discussion and more people bringing their ideas since I could say the black flower was nerfed for being sealed in the mercurial gate or something.

I'm just saying from a lore perspective it's not impossible for a human to grow as strong as an Intoner.

Click to expand...

It is tho, in the utahime five manga we see a ton of powerful humans (the lords of the regions) and they were capable of ******* up the child intoners then the black flower made them go Intoner Mode and they got absolutely ****** up (mind you this was the very beginning of the story, they weren't accoustumed to their powers yet) then the black flower made them grow up. For reference Adult One did actually fight against Bartas when both Child One and Gabriella combined couldn't. Scaling wise child intoners with hyper mode already scale to Bartas who scales above Weakened Zero and Michael who in turn could fight and destroy the black flower. That's why, again, only ending E Caim and Angelus would be able to somewhat scale, otherwise they get ****** by the watchers or lower level enemies.

Scaling Legna to Brother One is alright, its just that Brother One isn't remotely close to the intoners, let alone Zero. Also IIRC in ending A Zero just fought and killed Gabriel (who scales high too) and was killed using a dragon weapon (which is the weakness of the flower), not in a fight, also ending E has Brother One killing a child Zero with the same weapon (Ending E is a mix of all the others btw).

What I said above reminds me of something else I wanted to discuss, dragons are supposed to have a close relationship with the flower, something like they are able to rise to fight it, I don't remember all the details but its the reason why only dragons and dragon made weapons can kill the flower.

It depends? Nowe and Legna would get a "possibly" rating since it is actually unknown but most likely the watchers, we need to check again to confirm and possibly the japanese version too.

ah, don't worry. As you probably noticed I tend to just disappear for days and be lazing around so we have time

There's gonna be problems with placing some of these characters at Low 2-C when they have no on-screen feats to match it and multiple events that suggest they're weaker. To say nothing of Caim and Angelus scaling to Low 2-C in ending E while all other endings are all tier 7 or 6 at best. I hope we can find a few other feats to place their weaker keys a bit higher than they are now.

I should clarify what I mean when I say humans can reach that level. Caim is a human, but at the same time, he isn't just a human. He has a pact with a dragon, and they have far surpassed other people who have done the same. It's interesting how Inuart made a pact with Legna, who to start with was a far superior dragon to Angelus, and yet Caim and Angelus have grown far stronger than Inuart and Legna. To say nothing of Verdelet's pact which consists of a useless dragon and an equally useless old coward. My point is, it's obvious that one type of being which is possibly able to challenge the Intoners is the dragons, even Zero says that no-one can "handle" a dragon. That's why certain "humans", like Caim and perhaps Nowe, might be able to grow strong enough to fight an Intoner. Due to the power of the dragons, especially the large power boost that resulted from Caim and Angelus' pact.

Regarding D2 ending 2, there's also the obvious possibility that they lost. Even the Bone Casket required Manah to destroy it for them.

Okay, I'll let you know when I hear back. I might have to email them to you, but we'll discuss that then.

Ehh, all the endings are canon in a way and I don't think there would be problems, Ending A isn't the same as Ending D for example and so on. We still need to check the side stories since there is more info and other timelines there, like Furiae making a pact with a dragon or something like that.

Having pact's is a boost in power, yeah but it isn't that much of a deal, we have the crazy elf, the little kid, the pedo and more examples to show it isn't monumental. Inuart gained a big ass boost but it was because Legna was already a powerful dragon like you said. But you hit the nail in the head there, dragons are the only ones that can fight intoners since they are the natural enemies of the flower, Michael was very knowledgeable on this while Gabrielle didn't seem to know much about the subject. Also the line from Zero is an exaggeration, she can fight Michael (the strongest of dragons) and overwhelm him, Bartas beats the crap out of him and Gabrielle, Zero and Mikhail kill the wyrm, Four dominates a dragon and makes it into a "daemon" or an angel, Child One is already as strong as Gabriella while her intoner mode just stomps her, etc, etc. There is also the power of the song which can boost their power tremendously without needing to go hyper mode.

While we are in the intoners subject, they can convert other beings into angels or watchers like how Four did to her dragon, Gabriel is considered an angel too but it was out of his/her own wish to save One and defeat Bartas. Also, they have specific traits that boost their abilities, mainly Two and One, Two grows stronger every day while One senses become sharper every day (which is why she avoids having partners). Technically Two should be the strongest intoner close to Zero but One outclasses her because of the pact with Gabriel, also the reason why One is the only one that can face Zero head on and likely the reason why she can keep the corruption of the flower at bay.

Also, Nowe and Legna obviously lost XD, Her Inflorescence is the amalgamation of the flowers from all the multiverse together (which is why the Automata characters scale the highest)

Thank you, also, we need a general discussion thread to keep the convo going and get more people interested

The complaint people will have is suddenly jumping from tier 7 to tier 3 without a significant explanation.

Actually, in endings 4 and 5 Leonard was able to kill a large group of Watchers by blowing himself up, so I think he's stronger than he seems. I don't know about Arioch since the Watchers just ate her. There's also Zhangpo who grew strong enough to exhaust Manah. Granted she might have fainted due to the broken seal increasing her connection to God again. It is clear that pacts vary in power, based in factors like the strength of both partners, outside training, development between them, etcetera. Angelus evolving was both the pact and the dragons' blood memory. It certainly helped that Caim was powerful to start with, even if Angelus was a fairly weak dragon to begin with.

I know she was exaggerating, I'm just saying that dragons obviously can threaten Intoners. Obviously weaker dragons aren't as strong, but some dragons are. Even if we aren't sure if Caim and Angelus reached the level of the Intoners, they still reached a level no other being came close to.

That's another issue to concern me. Drakengard characters aren't that haxed, and we're talking about upgrading them to Low 2-C. Remember the string of stomp threads involving DMC after it first got upgraded to 3-A? And even before all the serious hax in DMC was discovered they were already far more haxed than Drakengard characters.

Apologies, what is Her Inflorescence? An enemy in Nier Automata, or Final Fantasy 14? I'm only partway through. Wait, Nier Automata characters scale above the Intoners? You said above that Nier wouldn't be as strong as Drakengard. You're talking about Final Fantasy 14, right?

The problem with a general discussion thread about it is that the whole thread will be made only about Nier Automata regardless of what we try to focus on, and that's if it doesn't become all about 2B's butt. I listed abilities from Drakengard in the previous thread at the OP's request and the OP still ignored it due to only caring about Nier Automata.

Nah, I don't really think people will be complaining about it, more so since its consistent with the god tiers.

Fair enough, I didn't remember those.

Ah, of course, Caim, Angelus, Nowe and Legna reached peak power beyond what any other could get (except intoners), they are unparalleled.

From the top of my head we have caim with several types of elemental manipulation, NPI, death hax, and other stuff with weapons, the Power of Song/Intoners scale to all that and more along with corruption, power boost, reality warping (I think, don't remember well about this one), summoning, High Godly regeneration (this one for Zero only), teleportation. Sorry pal, don't remember those, link them.

Her Inflorescence is the final boss of the Nier raid in FF14, the culmination of all the flowers or some shit like that. Yep, but only in the ending that leads to the raid, I think someone said its ending C but I don't know, never played Automata. Yep, Nier characters won't be as strong as drakengard, at least overall, while only those that show up in the FF14 raid are.

The difference now is that we will be the ones making this thing run, not somebody else who's only horny for 2B robotic ass.

When you say to link them, are you asking about haxes I can dig up? I already have a video clip to suggest NPI, and I listed a few more hax in the previous thread. I don't know about high godly regeneration for Zero.

Is Final Fantasy 14 really canon to Nier though? I still maintain that people will call out certain timelines featuring the same characters at Low 2-C or 2-A while all the other timelines feature the same characters at tier 7 or 6 with no significant differences to explain such a massive power gap.

So you've also noticed people only caring about the verse at all because of 2B and her butt?

Yeah, link the thread where you posted them. High Godly comes from the flower ressurrecting Nier after he was erased from existence and history in ending E. The novel says this and afaik the game is like the most faithful thing ever.

Intoners all around scale to tier 2 so no problem there. The problem would be with the other Nier and Drakengard characters (if it is even a problem). AFAIK the raid is canon but only to a very specific ending in automata, I still haven't seen any videos about it so I can't say.

Lmao, that's all people care about.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nier-replicant-automata-epic-revisions.133955/post-4613978

This should do it. I think I linked direct to the post I made.

And also the Queen Beast, which scales to Caim and Angelus. An argument could possibly be made for Nowe and Legna.

It was rather frustrating, being asked to list abilities from Drakengard and then the person who asked apparently couldn't see the verse past 2B's butt. Even the Automata revision seemed to only care about 2B. I'd imagine JoJo fans feel the same when people fill their threads with JoJo memes.

Nice

Probably, I need to recheck D2 tho, I forgot a ton of stuff

I know the feeling, like, I'm horny for her ass too but it doesn't stop me from doing the thing.

I know D2 pretty well. I can try uploading some info. The abilities are described in detail in the link but no scans linked.

Hate to intrude something obviously concluded, but I searched "drakengard discussion thread" and saw no actual discussion thread but landed here. Just wanted to track one and maybe ask some things / comment in general. I'm more interested in Drakengard than Nier!

Skimming this over, I'm reminded of earlier this year when I thought D2 Ending 2 was absolutely awesome. It does look like they left the winner of that up in the air - for one, would Legna make it past killing the Watchers and die to God, or what? I can buy that he'd lose to God but beat Watchers, he sure went VS the Watchers with preparation, and if it's true the Gods/Watchers put their power into the Bone Casket, should its destruction not weaken them? (Plus, I'd argue the greatest showing of Watcher power we had was them effortlessly outnumbering Caim/Angelus in 1, which doesn't really apply in this 2nd ending 2 has, Legna went in with even numbers).

Also, I saw talk about D2 Ending 3 where Legna supposedly comes to life again, supposedly as the only dragon at that point (which seems implied to me, because his defeat was supposed to kill every other dragon). So, if he had a profile, what would we add this as?

Also, the endings seemed to scale from a sort of horror value instead of power, that's just what I heard - which is funny if you ask me 'cos B seems scarier than D but...

Again, hate to butt in, but glad to see the Drakengard Squad!