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Legna returning is based on the post-credit scene where a dragon's shadow flies over a grassy field. Unless there's some statement about it elsewhere, nothing ever suggests that dragon is Legna. It just proves that at least one dragon still exists.

As for the second ending, the idea of God putting a significant amount of his power into the Bone Casket comes from Nowe asking how much of himself went into it. The Bone Casket is seemingly a particularly strong (likely the original) Seed of Resurrection, which could be seeds from the original flower, which notably did shed seeds and was proven to be able to resurrect things and create copies of them a la the Intoners.

Regarding the Watchers, the anomaly is the Queen. This is the beast who is stated to be able to consume all of time, and who created all the magic in Nier literally by decomposing. She also managed to consume the time of a being whose pact had given him infinite time.

For the normal watchers, the feat of Seriously harming Caim and Angelus probably would put them in that ballpark unless we say ending 5 Caim and Angelus are far superior to ending 4. Problem is that would result in Low 2-C Leonard, which would mean a fairly average pact-partner being that strong. That would open the gates for Low 2-C Manah, Nowe, Gismor, Urick, and Knights of the Seal lieutenants. It might be safer to stick with limiting the Low 2-C club to just Intoners, Mikhail, Caim, Angelus, the Queen-Beast, and the flower.

Aye, we never do see who that dragon is, and the devs never said it in an interview or an idle comment which sucks. I guess the only reason it could be Legna is he makes more sense than any of the dragons who should've all died with him...? But, you're right, literally nothing indicates anything here. We can just speculate.

So, destroying the Casket would not have too much consequence on the Watchers/Gods right? The other thing I remember is Legna basically saying destroying it was necessary to actually reach the Watchers/Gods (but Nowe doesn't even fight it in A, does he? And Legna was still about to one-man attempt all that?)

Yes, the Queen is a great case for putting Drakengard in tier 2 as well, like was discussed. It never really hit me just how powerful she was lol. Then I read what you guys had to say, and I realize this is actually pretty jacked up.

That is a good question; I'm not sure if we're to believe Ending E Caim would be > Ending D Caim. And correct about Leonard, blowing up so many Watchers was quite a feat, but yes, the usual pact partner (and people like Nowe, Manah) are to scale from people like him... they'd be given credit for a feat not even theirs that way. I would agree with the last part of what you said. I am supposing Drakengard 2 Caim is definitely around Low 2-C as well?

Also, this hit me after my post: We know in Drakengard 2 Ending B, it cuts off and Nowe/Legna are both in their usual forms. But if Nowe went Newbreed and Legna went Holy Dragon, they'd surely devastate the Watchers then right? After all, Newbreed Nowe had the Watchers cower away when the Dragons (or specifically, Holy Legna) were beat. I know it's bordering headcanon but, considering these forms are to be the strongest, do you think maybe they're worth making keys? And if so, how would they tier?

Well, the notable thing is that after destroying the Bone Casket, Eris no longer has to become the Goddess. Remember the collapse of the Goddess seal causes the world to warp, with time warping so that things from centuries ago are in the present, and things from other dimensions appear. If the Bone Casket being gone removes the need, then it means that it was the cause or at least the catalyst, perhaps the last remnant of the flower, the thing which first destabilised everything. If it can warp time that significantly, making past and present connect to each other, that also hints at Low 2-C.

As for scaling, it seems as if Nowe and Legna are at their strongest in ending 3, with their new forms and with Manah consuming the Bone Casket. As I listed above, Manah was implied to be able to make a significant difference to Nowe's strength only in ending 3, suggesting that she might actually scale to it at that point. This would certainly help point to other D2 characters being strong, although ironically D2 follows D1's first ending where Caim and Angelus didn't do anything but beat up kid Manah, who doesn't scale to her D2 ending 3 self, the Manah that subjugated the Bone Casket. So ironically D2 Caim might not scale to D2 ending 3 Nowe, Manah and Legna.

This is true. We know Legna cites this too and, it's not really anything he'd gain from lying about, plus I think we see him be proven right anyways. Definitely a good point though - it's more fuel to the Low 2-C train. So, I'm all for that analysis. I never really did think about what presence at all the flower might have had in 2, but what you say makes sense.

Hmm. I guess I can see it - Ending 2 is simply the ending that Legna & Nowe might survive together, if it's true Legna wanted to kill the Watchers and be the one under God directly instead (apparently the Watchers get called Gods by mistake a lot, so this feels 50/50). However, that is simply survival, so it's not exactly a big feat or amp like what happened in Ending 3 such as you say. Although, if it's true Legna manages in ending 2, it's even more credit to the idea Nowe/Manah/Legna upscale D2 Caim (Legna/Nowe would directly have bested what killed or injured Caim). I try to think about this because well, it's trying to make the most out of a topic we admittedly don't have a whole lot of specifics about. For one, Nowe didn't even need the Casket to go Newbreed in endings 1 & 3, so what says he didn't do it in ending 2 when Legna was in danger or so? (All off-screen, of course). I ask that because it feels important, like it'd tip that fight into their favour by a good bit. And again - if something like that happened, they should definitely upscale from D2 Caim. It's something technically important, but the devs didn't pull us along that far so... this is pretty awkward lol. Ending 3, though, visibly has the most going for it on-screen, so we don't need to go out of our way trying to get ideas with it.

Welcome to the official Drakengard-Nier discussion board.

I'm just too lazy to actually start helping with all this

Lmao that is fair, I'm pretty lazy too... should someone make a discussion thing though? Could just make it Drakengard for focus on that - I'm sure someone would make a Nier one just as well.

The thing is I want to tackle both series at once since they are connected and doing one already does part of the other

Not sure what to suggest then - but it feels like a discussion thread to contain both would sooner or later have Nier cannibalize Drakengard. In turn, it's pretty awkward.

Yeah... We talked about it and 2B juicy bottom would take over drakengard fast af.

I suggested that we take this to discord once since we can make channels for pretty much everything we need and collect scans but then again I'm just lazy

I think it would either be Discord, or both get their own discussion threads. No way is a "both in one" feasible, 2B butt would indeed drown out Drakengard, which is no fun for those who want to talk the latter.

Welp let's go with discord

Any links?

You know, before any major stat changes are even attempted, at very least Drakengard needs a verse page and some basics added to the profiles.

That's a good catch. We'll get to it in due time, friend!

And probably a few more profiles for at very least Zero, Mikhail, Nowe, Legna and the Queen Beast.

Watchers, Dragons and Goddess Furiae as well

Watchers and dragons maybe, although Mikhail, Angelus and Legna covers dragons. Furiae seems kind of redundant, given she can't fight. Even Eris, who is a goddess who can fight, is featless and doesn't scale to anyone noteworthy.

Meant the Ending B Furiae, stabby tentacle mode.

Though, she does get a dagger + dragon in a manga or so.

Maybe, and Inuart, since he can fight Caim. And we can list what a dumbass he is in his weakness section, complete with taking schlong enlargement and getting sick, then handing his girlfriend over to a crazy cult leader whose cult wants her dead. How does that idiot have the brains to stand up and walk?

Inuart wants a love he will never get... and is surprised when his plan all backfires in Ending B. RIP to him if he gets put in matches, lol!

In advance, I am on mobile rn and much prefer the laptop, so won't be able to really even try digging sources for anything rn.