The Twilight Archon's Power.
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VS Battles Wiki Forum
OneBleachHurricane
Again the problem is you're trying to scale basically everyone and everything to Kerrigan via the Hybrid going by gameplay and Plot Induced Stupidity in the Novels.
Either keep the scaling separate and keep the high ratings or combine all the scaling and lose the high ratings.
Or downgrade Kerrigan's physical stats.
X normally, High 6-A at full power
Either keep the scaling separate and keep the high ratings or combine all the scaling and lose the high ratings.
Or downgrade Kerrigan's physical stats.
X normally, High 6-A at full power
Not_Icarus
It's basically what I'm proposing though, tier 7 minimum and tier 6 peak via scaling and downscaling. Marvel does it with their 3-C to 2-C scaling. I'm not scaling the actual tier 8s like marines to Kerrigan level. Just anything with decent enough showcases of power like siege tanks (can hammer down battlecruiser tier enemies), scouts (anti matter missiles) and etc.
Not_Icarus
Kerrigan would still be dozens of times above units like siege tanks in high 6-a so it's not too unbelievable.
OneBleachHurricane
So you're actually trying to scale Siege Tanks to Kerrigan?
Not_Icarus
They're capable of harming hybrid who are weaker than Kerrigan but still a threat to her.
Basically yes.
Basically yes.
Not_Icarus
Something like "At least 7-C to 6-C, at most High 6-A."
For pages like the siege tank and immortal
For pages like the siege tank and immortal
Not_Icarus
Although that only applies to the siege tank's siege mode, tank mode remains at tier 8 like 8-B. Siege tank is also a glass cannon btw so also only 8-B durability.
OneBleachHurricane
The whole problem with the scaling is Kerrigan and the Leviathan
No unit should scale to the Leviathan's as gameplay is not indicative of what actually happens in Lore, dialogue in gameplay is usable but the gameplay itself should not.
As for Kerrigan the problems stems from her being physically High 6-A passively when in actuality the Storm Feat was done when she was actively using her Psionics.
We even see earlier of how she Amps her punches when fighting Zeratul.
As I proposed earlier as as you said with Marvel profiles, she should have a Lower Tier normally and High 6-A at her peak.
No unit should scale to the Leviathan's as gameplay is not indicative of what actually happens in Lore, dialogue in gameplay is usable but the gameplay itself should not.
As for Kerrigan the problems stems from her being physically High 6-A passively when in actuality the Storm Feat was done when she was actively using her Psionics.
We even see earlier of how she Amps her punches when fighting Zeratul.
As I proposed earlier as as you said with Marvel profiles, she should have a Lower Tier normally and High 6-A at her peak.
Not_Icarus
Battlecruisers at minimum should still be capable of at least downscaling from Leviathans, 10 kilotons is their minimum nuclear payload and Battlecruisers can survive more than 1 yamato blast during the HotS cutscenes and Flashpoint novel.
Are you suggesting passive/depowered 7-C Primal Kerrigan or something? It's funky tbh when she's actively fighting people. Her powers are definitely at high/max level when fighting hybrid level threats. Idk how to rate a lower end Kerrigan if you don't want hybrid scaling (I'm still fine with the hybrid method).
Are you suggesting passive/depowered 7-C Primal Kerrigan or something? It's funky tbh when she's actively fighting people. Her powers are definitely at high/max level when fighting hybrid level threats. Idk how to rate a lower end Kerrigan if you don't want hybrid scaling (I'm still fine with the hybrid method).
Not_Icarus
Stuff like the baneling vaporization calcs are fine because of how straightforward it is. Gameplay nukes however are unusable for obvious reasons.
The Leviathan calc was based on its ingame model instead of its cinematic one because the angles are weird. The tentacles are physical and kilometers long. The game gives us the closest point of reference of how to measure it's strength.
The Leviathan calc was based on its ingame model instead of its cinematic one because the angles are weird. The tentacles are physical and kilometers long. The game gives us the closest point of reference of how to measure it's strength.
Not_Icarus
And yeah the closest lowball I can imagine for Primal Kerrigan is 7-C.
Hybrids however are trickier as they're always on edge for a fight and thus max power.
Which means those that harm them can scale to them.
Hybrids however are trickier as they're always on edge for a fight and thus max power.
Which means those that harm them can scale to them.
OneBleachHurricane
We don't know the specifics of how Raynor beat the Leviathan. We do know he has access to his own complete arsenal as well as the one the Dominion had brought.
There's also the Dominion Fleet of an initial 25/26 ships trimmed to down 13 after the battle of Char. So who knows how many Battlecruisers got destroyed trying to take down the Leviathan.
De-Infested Kerrigan easily killed Hybrid in Prometheus Station when going all out with her Psionics.
Against the Hybrid Dominators in Skygeirr Station, she was handicapped by them slowly draining her which is a reason for them not scaling to Kerrigan at her peak. Another is that they were newly awakened so they might not be at their own peak power.
The only time she went all out was against Narud, in their beam clash, as Narud was amped by the power of Xel'naga temples, and afterwards since she was aware how powerful he was and because she was pissed. We even see her talons glow with psionic energy when she was going to stab the both of them.
In Ulnar, she stated she was fighting Hybrid for weeks, so she wasn't in the best condition when she fought that Hybrid in the cinematic. And even in bad condition she could rip apart the Hybrid when going all out, we see her talons once again glow when she does this.
Basically Kerrigan whether Infested or not is more than capable of handling Hybrid when going all out with her Psionics but without her further amping herself the Hybrid can take her on.
As for Primal Pack Leaders, legit the only Primal Pack Leader that I remember showing Psionic powers was Zurvan, with lightning and energy balls. So he could have been someone Kerrigan took on seriously.
Surviving Yamato Cannon shots isn't impressive when they're stated to be more or less comparable to the 10 Kiloton nukes.
We don't know the specifics of how Raynor beat the Leviathan. We do know he has access to his own complete arsenal as well as the one the Dominion had brought.
There's also the Dominion Fleet of an initial 25/26 ships trimmed to down 13 after the battle of Char. So who knows how many Battlecruisers got destroyed trying to take down the Leviathan.
De-Infested Kerrigan easily killed Hybrid in Prometheus Station when going all out with her Psionics.
Against the Hybrid Dominators in Skygeirr Station, she was handicapped by them slowly draining her which is a reason for them not scaling to Kerrigan at her peak. Another is that they were newly awakened so they might not be at their own peak power.
The only time she went all out was against Narud, in their beam clash, as Narud was amped by the power of Xel'naga temples, and afterwards since she was aware how powerful he was and because she was pissed. We even see her talons glow with psionic energy when she was going to stab the both of them.
In Ulnar, she stated she was fighting Hybrid for weeks, so she wasn't in the best condition when she fought that Hybrid in the cinematic. And even in bad condition she could rip apart the Hybrid when going all out, we see her talons once again glow when she does this.
Basically Kerrigan whether Infested or not is more than capable of handling Hybrid when going all out with her Psionics but without her further amping herself the Hybrid can take her on.
Hybrid only scale to Kerrigan when she isn't going all out against them, but when she becomes serious she can easily put them down (Prometheus Station, Skygeirr Station and Ulnar)
As for Primal Pack Leaders, legit the only Primal Pack Leader that I remember showing Psionic powers was Zurvan, with lightning and energy balls. So he could have been someone Kerrigan took on seriously.
Not_Icarus
Moirai class Battlecruisers can participate in the fight against the Xanthos which is the strongest Terran ground unit and explicitly at Gorgon level. I believe you can make an argument for them to downscale to High 6-A. Tal'Darim Motherships were fought on a previous mission before that and it was full blown battle between the Dominion and Tal'Darim's arsenal.
Hybrids are inferior and pretty much lost every lost 1 to 1 against her in canon but they qualify enough to downscale on some level imo. During Flashpoint when she was ripping apart hybrid physically, it was still acknowledge that she should be careful around the hybrids' piercing damage. Primal Kerrigan got pierced by them too although it is acknowledged that she was tired. But I don't believe it's too far fetched to believe that they can scale to her. At least for the mega tier hybrid that's above the standard ones as she was shown to still be capable fighting well with Artanis after weeks of combat.
Come to think of it, it's arguable that Kerrigan is stronger than Narud. She endured a long tug of war between her and an amped Narud, ultimately overpowering him with her own power when he lost his amps.
On the side note, Scourges are straight up High 6-A. A single nest of them can bring down a Gorgon. Granted there's also a bit of inconsistency with the Mothership short story where a single one tanks dozens of them and still be fine but I can fix that by giving them both low and high ends at the same time.
Hybrids are inferior and pretty much lost every lost 1 to 1 against her in canon but they qualify enough to downscale on some level imo. During Flashpoint when she was ripping apart hybrid physically, it was still acknowledge that she should be careful around the hybrids' piercing damage. Primal Kerrigan got pierced by them too although it is acknowledged that she was tired. But I don't believe it's too far fetched to believe that they can scale to her. At least for the mega tier hybrid that's above the standard ones as she was shown to still be capable fighting well with Artanis after weeks of combat.
Come to think of it, it's arguable that Kerrigan is stronger than Narud. She endured a long tug of war between her and an amped Narud, ultimately overpowering him with her own power when he lost his amps.
On the side note, Scourges are straight up High 6-A. A single nest of them can bring down a Gorgon. Granted there's also a bit of inconsistency with the Mothership short story where a single one tanks dozens of them and still be fine but I can fix that by giving them both low and high ends at the same time.
OneBleachHurricane
Why would they scale to Kerrigan's High 6-A? The Xanthos is stated to have "heavy assault weapons", "armor plating that repels direct attacks", and a "combat mode".
And is stated to be specifically vulnerable when repairing, the only time when the main hull can be damaged. Meaning that its Armor is either deactivated or something that makes it vulnerable.
Its various weapons systems can be destroyed an therefore wouldn't scale to its experimental armor.
The only weapon that it specifically uses against Gorgons and cannot be damaged is its Vulcan Blaster. The rapid fire laser in its torso.
The Xanthos either has Hax Armor hence its invulnerability in combat or its armor, as it was stated to do, repels attacks, and is only vulnerability while in repair when its Armor is nonfunctional. Basically damaging the Xanthos while it's in repair should not scale anything to High 6-A, especially when its Durability has no scaling to High 6-A.
Out of all the weapons systems, only the Vulcan Blaster would scale to the Gorgon, and even then it would be an "At Most Gorgon Level" since it doesn't immediately destroy a Gorgon.
TLDR;
The Xanthos' AP gets "Varies" rating with its various weapons systems (From Infantry Level to Battlecruiser Level), and only its Vulcan Blaster scales to "At Most Gorgon Durability Level" due to it being the only weapon it uses against the Gorgons.
The Xanthos' Durability would be "Battlecruiser AP Level" since that is the strongest unit it can take attacks from when its experimental armor plating is gone.
Lore-wise Terrans have no ship that surpasses the Mothership in size based on the Field Manual, they are stated to have "devastating power of a mothership can wipe out squadrons of enemy ships in the blink of an eye or lay waste to entire planets" from an older version of the SC2 site.
Motherships should have a "Varies" rating with its AP since "Enemy Ships" can refer to Fighter Craft Sized Ships or Battlecruisers (Behemoth or Gorgon).
Durability-wise its Shield should scale to it's highest AP rating, while it's actual Hull should scale to at least a Battlecruiser (Behemoth or Minotaur) since like Battlecruisers it requires mass Vikings, after its Shields are gone, to take down.
Why would they scale to Kerrigan's High 6-A? The Xanthos is stated to have "heavy assault weapons", "armor plating that repels direct attacks", and a "combat mode".
And is stated to be specifically vulnerable when repairing, the only time when the main hull can be damaged. Meaning that its Armor is either deactivated or something that makes it vulnerable.
Its various weapons systems can be destroyed an therefore wouldn't scale to its experimental armor.
The only weapon that it specifically uses against Gorgons and cannot be damaged is its Vulcan Blaster. The rapid fire laser in its torso.
The Xanthos either has Hax Armor hence its invulnerability in combat or its armor, as it was stated to do, repels attacks, and is only vulnerability while in repair when its Armor is nonfunctional. Basically damaging the Xanthos while it's in repair should not scale anything to High 6-A, especially when its Durability has no scaling to High 6-A.
Out of all the weapons systems, only the Vulcan Blaster would scale to the Gorgon, and even then it would be an "At Most Gorgon Level" since it doesn't immediately destroy a Gorgon.
TLDR;
The Xanthos' AP gets "Varies" rating with its various weapons systems (From Infantry Level to Battlecruiser Level), and only its Vulcan Blaster scales to "At Most Gorgon Durability Level" due to it being the only weapon it uses against the Gorgons.
The Xanthos' Durability would be "Battlecruiser AP Level" since that is the strongest unit it can take attacks from when its experimental armor plating is gone.
Lore-wise Terrans have no ship that surpasses the Mothership in size based on the Field Manual, they are stated to have "devastating power of a mothership can wipe out squadrons of enemy ships in the blink of an eye or lay waste to entire planets" from an older version of the SC2 site.
Motherships should have a "Varies" rating with its AP since "Enemy Ships" can refer to Fighter Craft Sized Ships or Battlecruisers (Behemoth or Gorgon).
Durability-wise its Shield should scale to it's highest AP rating, while it's actual Hull should scale to at least a Battlecruiser (Behemoth or Minotaur) since like Battlecruisers it requires mass Vikings, after its Shields are gone, to take down.
OneBleachHurricane
At Minimum a Fatigued Primal Kerrigan should be comparable to or still stronger than her Peak De-Infested self
The Higher Tier Hybrid are fine for the most part unless you're once again trying to scale low tier units to them then forget it.
They don't scale to Primal Kerrigan at her peak.
Then they just scale to Peak De-Infested Kerrigan's
That Hybrid only scales to a fatigued Primal Kerrigan.
At Minimum a Fatigued Primal Kerrigan should be comparable to or still stronger than her Peak De-Infested self
The Higher Tier Hybrid are fine for the most part unless you're once again trying to scale low tier units to them then forget it.
Not_Icarus
The Xanthos is High 6-A to me exactly because of its Vulcan Blaster (final laser mode should scale too). It's strong enough to kill Gorgons. Also the reason it gets more directly harmed by our firepower because the core is exposed during repair mode. Not because the armor magically turns off, the attack reflection is an innate part of the armor. But fine I can compromise that the weapon systems and core are battlecruiser level from your scaling while the armor itself is Gorgon level imo. Losing the weapon systems forces the Xanthos to retreat as it loses its versatility in combat without them.
Mothership should vary yeah I agree. There's multiple kinds out there from explorers (they're still armed though) to Tal'Darim warships and they vary in portrayal from being invincible to dying to Vikings. The shields are definitely it's strongest defense as shown from the Mothership short story as a single one took the entire might of the Zerg's entire air arsenal (includes Scourges and minus Leviathans) without going down. I do believe the physical armor is likely Gorgon level though imo. As they get killed by convenientional weaponry like Battlecruisers and Scourges. Also tbf that lore is somewhat outdated given it was before the release of HotS where they introduced the Gorgons. Invulnerable to everything but Scourge level threats and is the pinnacle of the Terran fleet's might. Gorgons and Tal'Darim Motherships fought on the same battle during semi-final mission of HotS.
How do you see Scourges in your scaling anyways? They're very straightforward in mine.
Mothership should vary yeah I agree. There's multiple kinds out there from explorers (they're still armed though) to Tal'Darim warships and they vary in portrayal from being invincible to dying to Vikings. The shields are definitely it's strongest defense as shown from the Mothership short story as a single one took the entire might of the Zerg's entire air arsenal (includes Scourges and minus Leviathans) without going down. I do believe the physical armor is likely Gorgon level though imo. As they get killed by convenientional weaponry like Battlecruisers and Scourges. Also tbf that lore is somewhat outdated given it was before the release of HotS where they introduced the Gorgons. Invulnerable to everything but Scourge level threats and is the pinnacle of the Terran fleet's might. Gorgons and Tal'Darim Motherships fought on the same battle during semi-final mission of HotS.
How do you see Scourges in your scaling anyways? They're very straightforward in mine.
Not_Icarus
I don't need hybrids to scale to peak Primal Kerrigan though, just be much weaker than her but enough to harm her. Kerrigan at the start of her primal transformation is different throughout the length of the campaign as she grows in power even more via bonus objectives and conquering every single Primal Zerg and absorbing their essence unto herself. Making her unknowingly more powerful than base Primal Kerrigan.
OneBleachHurricane
It took an entire nest of Scourge to down one Gorgon. It would take less to down a regular Battlecruiser.
When did Tal'Darim Motherships fight Dominion Gorgons in HotS?
The first time they were revealed in HotS was in the Char missions, and only there.
If you bring up the Norad, and Gantrithor, we have no idea how damage the ships in their final moments.
A single Scourge stated to be capable of downing Terran fighter craft or shuttles.
You realize it takes time for them to do it hence the "At Most"
No, they have no scaling to High 6-A in durability. Nothing attacks them other than Moirai Battlecruisers.
Scourge and regular Battlecruisers do not scale to Gorgons.
It took an entire nest of Scourge to down one Gorgon. It would take less to down a regular Battlecruiser.
Fine then, the Mothership has no scaling to Gorgons. They only scale to regular Battlecruisers since it seems that's why you want.
No they did not.
When did Tal'Darim Motherships fight Dominion Gorgons in HotS?
The first time they were revealed in HotS was in the Char missions, and only there.
You seem to overestimate them despite the fact that as stated and shown, it takes a number of them to take down capital ships.
If you bring up the Norad, and Gantrithor, we have no idea how damage the ships in their final moments.
A single Scourge stated to be capable of downing Terran fighter craft or shuttles.
Gameplay, lore and statements made by characters like Artanis and Kerrigan.