• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

1-A JTTW & Abilities CRT

Status
Not open for further replies.
ActuallySpaceMan42

ActuallySpaceMan42

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
5,261
4,155
Cosmology

So this is an argument that started in the original Sun Wukong CRT and was in the end I compromised due to how long it was dragging out. But now that some time has passed I feel I need to bring up the argument again that every World in JTTW should be a High 1-B Structure.

Quick Recap
First I'll be doing a quick recap on why a World (Universe) in JTTW is 6-D at the minimum.

It is stated that within a grain of sand there is a Chiliocosm. Chiliocosm is a Buddhist word that changes meaning depending on the size it's referring to, with the minimum being 1,000 Worlds and the largest 1,000,000,000 Worlds. This is a paradox of large things being in small things that are brought up time and time again in the Novel. Feathers have ocean's within them and seeds containing mountains, with even stuff like dust having thousands of worlds within them. The translator confirms this in his notes.

The existence of multiple worlds being true is confirmed in two separate passages in the novel as well. One is where Tripitaka's efforts affected The Great World which means Worlds beyond Measure in other translations, and another statement saying that Buddhas exist in all worlds. This would make the Main World itself which is a 4D Structure due to be a Universe 5-D, simple enough.

Next up we have The Buddha-Realms I won't get into everything but simply put Buddha-Realms are stated to exist within grains of sand just like Chiliocosms. Buddha-Realms are also known as Pure-Lands and their palaces are stated to contain worlds as vast as Ganges' Sands. In other translations, it is shown that Ganges' Sands means Infinite. The Buddha-Realms in themselves are also hinted to be Infinite containing endless buildings within it. So the Main World which would originally be 5-D is now 6-D due to Buddha-Realms being 5-D Structures in themselves, containing Infinite Worlds within them.

References; [1][2][3][4][5][6]
The Great Way
So now we have an understanding of how in the Main World of JTTW there are Infinite Worlds. But we're not done, we also need to talk about what is responsible for that. Within JTTW there is a Cosmis Force known as The Great Way, which encompasses the Universe. And is stated to be responsible for the cosmos's imbue. Now while the first scan is simple enough to understand the second one initially seem's vague on how it related to the Grains of Sand and Buddha-Realms. That is until you translate "The Great Way" into its other name, which is The Mahayana.[1][2][3]

Now obviously we don't use religion as evidence on the Wiki, so this will only be my second argument. But put simply The Mahayana follows a Cosmology of recursion, with Universes existing within grains of sand and atoms of other Universes and Buddha-Lands existing within Buddha-Lands. Going back to the translator's statement from before, you can clearly tell what "lore" he was talking about.

When put together it's a statement of "The Mahayana is responsible for the Cosmos' Imbuement, referring to the Universes and Buddha-Lands within the grains of sand, worlds within the dust, mountains and oceans within seeds and feathers, etc."

The Argument
So what is the point I'm getting at? Simply put the worlds that exist within grains of sand should in turn also have worlds within them, leading to a recursion effect.
I have three reasons for my logic that I'll just briefly summarize.

1. Firstly Chilicosm & Buddha-Realm's statement says "A grain of sand", not a grain of sand in this world, just a grain of sand. It's a very broad statement referring to every grain of sand pretty clearly. On top of that, it states clearly that a Buddha's entire realm exists within a grain of sand. That would also have to include the one in the Main JTTW World.

2. It's also stated that Buddhas exist in every world. That would have to include the lower worlds as well, in which the Buddhas within those lower worlds would also have their own realms.

3. If the Great Way scans do indeed mean it's responsible for these recursions of larger things such as Worlds, Buddha-Realms, Mountains, and Oceans being within smaller things, then why would it not affect the lower worlds within the Universe it already encompasses?

Questions & Counters Points

Question: What will this look like Cosmologically?
Answer: Simply imagine a Universe with Infinite Universes within it, and then imagine each of those following a similar structure, and the original Universe you started with also exists alongside infinite others in an infinite recursion up and down.

Point: This make's absolutely no sense as it would make everyone, even a normal worm in JTTW 1-B.
Counter: No it would not, an example of this is the I/O Verse. They have a High 1-B Cosmology within this verse and they deal with this issue very simply. Every world below the Main one is 11-C, and everything above it goes into High Dimensions, 5-D, 6-D, 7-D, etc.

Question: What and who is this going to affect?
Answer: This will only be affecting Higher-Dimensional Beings and Forces such as Transcendent Monks, Bodhisattvas, The Great Way, The Dharma, Buddhas, and obviously The Dharmakaya. The only real difference ability-wise will be that Bodhisattvas will obtain Transduality Type 3 and Buddhas and above will obtain Transduality Type 4.

Question: What Tier will JTTW be after this?
Answer: Besides The Great Way that will be High 1-B, Transcendent Monk will be Low 1-A, Bodhisattvas will be 1-A and lastly The Dharma will be a layer into 1-A alongside Buddhas.

Ability Additions

Sun Wukong

1. Possibly 3-A/Low 2-C/2-C via Size Manipulation (Sun Wukong has stated that he could grow larger enough to fill the universe.) - Chapter 14, Page 311

2. Statistics Amplification (Sun Wukong and transformations, in general, have shown that changing your form can make you stronger.) - Chapter 61, Page 160 | Chapter 4, 155 | Chapter 61, Page 157

Buddism Physiology

1. Bodhisattvas will gain Transduality Type 3 due to becoming 1-A. Their current Transduality status comes from transcending Transcendent Monks who are already beyond the Yin-Yang which represents boundless dualities & dyadic models.

2. Buddhas and above will gain Transduality Type 4. Their current logic is that the Dharma which they are one with is boundless and incomprehensible in comparison to the Yin-Yang and its functions. On top of this, they view Bodhisattvas and the Undivided/Non-Dual Reality of Buddha-Nature which exists in all things including Bodhisattvas as unreality.

Additional Proposes

These were proposals added to the CRT via discussion.

1. The Dharmakaya as it stands has been proposed to potentially be High 1-A via Apophatic Philosophy, if this fails to go through it will simply be two layers above 1-A. (Dharmakaya Explination)

2. Sun Wukong has showings of effecting the Cosmos in battle and holding Ruyi Jingu Bang as it pierced the Heavens and the Underworld. The Realms such as Heaven, the Mortal Realm, and the Underworld are already accepted to be potentially other Space-Time Continuums within the Cosmology Page. Effecting these realms should make him Low 2-C or 2-C, holding Ruyi Jingu Bang when it grew to such a size should give him Infinite Lifting Strength, and lastly traveling to the end of Heaven and to other Realms via sheer speed should be valid for Infinite Speed. - Chapter 5, Page 172 | Chapter 3, Page 138

Agree; ShivaShakti, Greatsage13th, NIK_FARIS, Elizhaa, Braking, The_Axiom_of_Virgo, Alexander, Planck69, LephyrTheRevanchist

Neutral; Darksmash, Jasonith

Disagree; Potemkat, Pain_to12, Ultima_Reality, Qawsedf234
 
Last edited:
The Dharmakaya would actually be High 1-A. It is Apophatic in regard to everything beneath it.

Also, in my opinion Sun Wukong should be High 3-A and Infinite speed. I will elaborate later.
 
Perish.

But regardless, the poem often uses "Ganga" to describe Infinity.

What we appear to not acknowledge however, is the fact the ganga sands aren't merely an allegory for an infinity, but it also refers to an actual location on the earth known as The Ganga River. This alone insinuates that the universe is infinite in size, even without invoking Mahayana cosmology.

Furthermore, Sun Wukong also carries Mount Sumeru upon his back, which is described within the translator's commentary to contain the heavens:

Screenshot_20220812-202741-891.png


Considering that the heavens are contained within a separate temporal continuum (As time progresses distinctly from earth), one could even argue this is a Low 2-C, or even a 2-C feat.

Regarding his speed, that should be very simple. Within one of the initial chapters, his cudgel grows to such length that it penetrates heaven and hell. And even when Wukong is first born, he discharges a blast from his eyes which disturbs the Jade Emperor on heaven.

Screenshot_20220812-203358-874.png

Screenshot_20220812-203702-467.png


This is of course without mentioning the fact that he also traversed to the end of the universe within a single bound, because everyone knows of that feat already. Regardless, I propose that his Great Sage Key be upgraded to High 3-A, or Low 2-C to 2-C. His speed to be Infinite, and for his lifting Strength to be Infinite to Immeasurable as well, as he lifted Mount Sumeru.

Also, I would suggest deleting his "Post Buddha Sealing" key. I don't see a reason for it to exist personally.
 
Last edited:
ShivaShakti said:
This is of course without mentioning the fact that he also traversed to the end of the universe within a single bound, because everyone knows of that feat already. Regardless, I propose that his Great Sage Key be upgraded to High 3-A, or Low 2-C to 2-C. His speed to be Infinite, and for his lifting Strength to be Infinite to Immeasurable as well, as he lifted Mount Sumeru.

Also, I would suggest deleting his "Post Buddha Sealing" key. I don't see a reason for it to exist personally.
Click to expand...
The reasoning for upgrading Sun Wukong to 2-C is already there actually I just wanted to focus on this first.

In fact, the separate Realms being possibly their own Space-Times is mentioned in and accepted in the Cosmology page and Sun Wukong participating in a battle that shakes the Universe should already qualify him for Low 2-C or 2-C.

No comment on the infinite speed reasoning, l but him lifting his staff when it grows large enough to reach these potentially other Space-Times would qualify for Immeasurable as well.
 
I am not really seeing the arguments here, especially since containing larger things inside smaller things seems to explicitly be considered a paradox. A grain of sand doesn't seem to be containing smaller versions of larger things(as that doesnt invoke any kind of paradox) but literally the large things themselves. If anything it doesn't seem to have anything to do with size at all.
 
Darksmash said:
I am not really seeing the arguments here, especially since containing larger things inside smaller things seems to explicitly be considered a paradox. A grain of sand doesn't seem to be containing smaller versions of larger things(as that doesnt invoke any kind of paradox) but literally the large things themselves. If anything it doesn't seem to have anything to do with size at all.
Click to expand...
What? Can you rephrase that a bit?
 
ActuallySpaceMan said:
What? Can you rephrase that a bit?
Click to expand...
The scans I have seen before seem to make it clear multiple times that small things containing larger things inside of them in Buddhism is a paradox. If a grain of sand contained a smaller version of the world inside of it that wouldn't be any kind of paradox as the sizes would be consistent. Here, a grain of sand seems to contain worlds larger than it should be capable of containing (in view of the mentioned paradox). So I am not really seeing any reason to consider this a hierarchy here.
 
Darksmash said:
The scans I have seen before seem to make it clear multiple times that small things containing larger things inside of them in Buddhism is a paradox. If a grain of sand contained a smaller version of the world inside of it that wouldn't be any kind of paradox as the sizes would be consistent. Here, a grain of sand seems to contain worlds larger than it should be capable of containing (in view of the mentioned paradox). So I am not really seeing any reason to consider this a hierarchy here.
Click to expand...
Ah, so you're saying the grains of sand don't contain smaller worlds but normal-sized worlds?

I'm not exactly seeing how this changes anything though.
 
Darksmash said:
The scans I have seen before seem to make it clear multiple times that small things containing larger things inside of them in Buddhism is a paradox. If a grain of sand contained a smaller version of the world inside of it that wouldn't be any kind of paradox as the sizes would be consistent. Here, a grain of sand seems to contain worlds larger than it should be capable of containing (in view of the mentioned paradox). So I am not really seeing any reason to consider this a hierarchy here.
Click to expand...
You wouldn't really call a boundless realm "smaller" than a grain of sand of a primitive world tho
 
Darksmash said:
Yea

It would mean that it's not a hierarchy
Click to expand...
The size of the worlds within the grains of sand isn't really relevant, embedding one Universe into another creates an Uncountably Infinite difference between the two structures regardless.
 
ActuallySpaceMan said:
The size of the worlds within the grains of sand isn't really relevant, embedding one Universe into another creates an Uncountably Infinite difference between the two structures regardless.
Click to expand...
The point is that they aren't embedding smaller things in terms of size. They are paradoxically containing larger things inside them.
 
Darksmash said:
The point is that they aren't embedding smaller things in terms of size. They are paradoxically containing larger things inside them.
Click to expand...
Unless we can prove the worlds within the grains of sand are larger than the worlds outside of them then it doesn't matter.

Each grain of sand holds a world right? Assuming each world is equal in size to the world outside of it then they are all Low 2-C Structures. However the issue is the World outside of those grains of sand would have an Uncountably Infinite number of grains of sand copied across its timeline, and so would the worlds inside those grains of sand with their own worlds and timeline.

Even if it's a paradox it creates a recursion effect, therefore, forming a High 1-B Structure. Every world has to follow the same logic so even if we assume the worlds inside the grains of sand are larger they would also have to contain larger worlds which would contain larger worlds which would contain larger worlds.
 
Darksmash said:
Wtf is a space communist

Also I already elaborated in a prior comment. Smaller things aren't containing even smaller things inside them, but larger things instead. This is a paradox, not a hierarchy.
Click to expand...
It'd still be a form of an out of wack pascal's triangle. Which is a hierarchy in on itself.

Space communist is basically the Tau.
 
ActuallySpaceMan said:
Unless we can prove the worlds within the grains of sand are larger than the worlds outside of them then it doesn't matter.
Click to expand...
The text does by calling it a paradox.

ActuallySpaceMan said:
Each grain of sand holds a world right? Assuming each world is equal in size to the world outside of it then they are all Low 2-C Structures. However the issue is the World outside of those grains of sand would have an Uncountably Infinite number of grains of sand copied across its timeline, and so would the worlds inside those grains of sand with their own worlds and timeline.
Click to expand...
That logic only works when we know that the entire timeline of a world is embedded inside a single grain in every moment of time. This is a completely unintuitive scenario where the contents of the grain are paradoxically larger than the grain itself. So you can't really apply any kind of subset logic to it. Unless of course you can prove that every moment's grain of sand is a completely different world mapping to a different structure.
 
Darksmash said:
The text does by calling it a paradox.


That logic only works when we know that the entire timeline of a world is embedded inside a single grain in every moment of time. This is a completely unintuitive scenario where the contents of the grain are paradoxically larger than the grain itself. So you can't really apply any kind of subset logic to it. Unless of course you can prove that every moment's grain of sand is a completely different world mapping to a different structure.
Click to expand...
I see the issue here, the translator's words in no shape or form have any more barring over the novel than what the novel states.

In his own words yes it is a paradox, however, it is not defined as a paradox within the novel, it is simply stated that grains of sand contain words. We shouldn't allow the translator notes on how paradoxical that is to change the definition of what the novel directly states which is that the grains of sand CONTAIN the worlds within their entirety.
 
ActuallySpaceMan said:
I see the issue here, the translator's words in no shape or form have any more barring over the novel than what the novel states.
Click to expand...
It's not just the translators words. I am sure I have seen text from the novel itself stating the same before. Although I can't find it rn.


ActuallySpaceMan said:
In his own words yes it is a paradox, however, it is not defined as a paradox within the novel, it is simply stated that grains of sand contain words. We shouldn't allow the translator notes on how paradoxical that is to change the definition of what the novel directly states which is that the grains of sand CONTAIN the worlds within their entirety.
Click to expand...
I mean I could be misremembering seeing it in the novel. If it isn't there then sure it's a hierarchy. But if it's there then my argument would stand. I guess I will go and try to find where I saw that quote in the novel.
 
Darksmash said:
I mean I could be misremembering seeing it in the novel. If it isn't there then sure it's a hierarchy. But if it's there then my argument would stand. I guess I will go and try to find where I saw that quote in the novel.
Click to expand...
It is most likely a misunderstanding since the revised translation of JTTW never mentions the word paradox outside of translator notes.
 
It being a "Paradox" or a "hierarchy" isn't pertinent in this regard. A world recursively containing itself would already be High 1-B. An Infinite object containing an infinite object would itself need to be infinitely larger.
 
Further in regard to the translation note, it likely isn't using the word "Paradox" in a very literal manner. He could simply be accentuating the inconceivable nature of the analogy.

But regardless, discarding the statement is fine.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

LazerDim8000
Journey To The West tier upgrade
Replies
6
Views
2K
LazerDim8000
LazerDim8000
JimedBro2020
  • Locked
JTTW needs a MASSIVE upgrade
Replies
5
Views
2K
JimedBro2020
JimedBro2020
StrymULTRA
Sun Wukong Infinite speed problem???
Replies
8
Views
2K
StrymULTRA
StrymULTRA
Lloydblitzed
  • Locked
Lego Monkie Kid Upgrades
Replies
28
Views
2K
Lloydblitzed
Lloydblitzed
Gasper
Sun Wukong abilities addition
Replies
7
Views
2K
LordGriffin1000
LordGriffin1000
Back
Top