1-A tier for New Gods.

[Mercury_$erpent]

This revision seems crazy, but not stupid, so...

For the first, speed force already is extradimensional space, so SoG must transcends it (by the Morrison's map ). Hell is also extradimensional space, which locates on the same plane of reality with Apokalips and NG. And also SoG located on 'Imaginational' plane of reality, which exist outside time and space, beyond physik.

So, all Gods Sphere inhabitants should have 1-A tier.

 

[Viper1997]

not bad, but I think you could write more about it

 

[Mercury_$erpent]

I think these arguments are enough, more text will just repeat the same things.

 

[Mercury_$erpent]

While falling, shadow of Darkseid covered all Multiverse (and start destroying it later), which includes space like this. Presence of his extra-dimensional essence start collapsing Multiverse. He broke the time, all creation was shaking.

 

[Antvasima]

We have talked about this several times before, and consistently reached the conclusion that it would be too exaggerated for these characters.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump.

TBF they do have the feats. The problem is they have the low showings of being relative to Mxy Level characters. However, based on the newer definition of the Multiverse saying they don't exact have "higher-dimensions" as we describe them we may need to reevaluate Mxy and Co.

 

[Blueicemonkey]

One of the latest showings from Justice League Odyssey #12:

Darkseid creates a space that is disengaged from space and time and safe from Perpetua's reach to govern as his new domain.

 

[Grimreaperofjustice]

Ok well no, this wouldn't be too exaggerated seeing as how powerful they are presented to be especially in Darkseids case

New God/Darkseid abilities:

Kills Ms. DC

(Admittedly could be for gag context but further it should make sense)

Harms Spectre

By default above Time and Space

This just to show for "debunks" for low showings"

New God Physiology being Outside Time and Space

They also Exist in their own dimension

Batman even said they are above Platonic concepts of time and space

The list goes on, even if we don't use these and say it's exaggerated just think about the definition of outerversal when you look at "Flashpoint" Darkseid and other new gods simply wasn't effected because above the concept of space and time

they look at these things like fiction tbh

 

[Antvasima]

Being above or outside of basic universal time and space does not automatically mean transcending and being qualitatively superior to all degrees of it.

However, you can ask the following members to comment here if you wish:

Matthew Schroeder, Kepekley23, Sandman31, Zensum, C2 of Omego, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Yobo Blue, Ultima Reality, SuperAPM.

Especially focus on Sandman31 and PrinceOfTheMorning.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I still believe we need to quantify 5-D and above as something idfferent as it's clear that they essentially retconned both to not truly existing in the DC and even the ones involved with the creation of the 5-D Imps outright said fifth dimension as defined in geometrical sense doesn't exist in the DCU.

 

[Mercury_$erpent]

Being above or outside of basic universal time and space does not automatically mean transcending and being qualitatively superior to all degrees of it.
However, you can ask the following members to comment here if you wish:

Matthew Schroeder, Kepekley23, Sandman31, Zensum, C2 of Omego, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Yobo Blue, Ultima Reality, SuperAPM.

Especially focus on Sandman31 and PrinceOfTheMorning.

So, maybe i was wrong, but I think Darkseid true essence should be at least 1-B

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't think any new evidence has been presented so far that the previous threads haven't already covered. Currently I'm not really for a 1-A rating for any New God.

 

[Sera_EX]

I second the notion of Qawsedf.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Then again what do we do about the current higher-dimensional tiers for them ? Higher-DImensions, at least how we currently define them, don't exist in DC as how Mxy described the 5-D recently is something completely diffferent from regular interpretations.

 

[Mercury_$erpent]

While falling, shadow of Darkseid covered all Multiverse (and start destroying it later), which includes space like this.Presence of his extra-dimensional essence start collapsing Multiverse. He broke the time, all creation was shaking.

@Qawsedf234 , what about this? I think via this feats true essence of Darkseid should hava 1-B tier

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Personally I think in the context of Final Crisis, Darkseid was affecting the Orrery of Worlds and not the entire multiverse.

Also the Platonic stuff has been rejected in the past and will most likely stay that way till new info comes out

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Then again what do we do about the current higher-dimensional tiers for them ? Higher-DImensions, at least how we currently define them, don't exist in DC as how Mxy described the 5-D recently is something completely diffferent from regular interpretations.

Isn't that because the 5th Dimension is stated to be the blood of the multiverse and encompasses it all besides anything beyond the Source Wall?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Basically as that implies far more than what we currently have for the 5-D Imps but it's an offical retcon so I have no flipping idea what to do with it.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Maybe wait for more info as JL and Year of Villain goes on

 

[Antvasima]

The 5th dimension being imagination is a new addition. We do not know how it retroactively affects everything else yet.

I think that the New Gods are currently scaled from the 5-dimensional Bleed though.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

But that's been around since Batman RIP right? I guess Scott Snyder decided to give a, at least, explaination as to what imagination/5th dimension in DC is since it's not on the map

 

[Antvasima]

We do not know how it affects the New Gods yet. Batman: RIP only mentioned it in passing.

 

[Antvasima]

@Staff members

Should we get a discussion rule against this topic? We keep having to deal with it over and over and over.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I think it's clear the "5th Dimension" isn't that in a spatial or temporal sense. It seems more like imagination encompasses everything below the "6th Dimension".

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

At least from Mxys view anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

That topic seems to have little to do with the New Gods though.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Determining whether the New Gods are 1-A here is just a decision where they only transcend the space and time of the "local multiverse" or the whole thing of arguably infinite dimensions. Whether the Bleed they transcend is High 2-A or High 1-B and whether they transcend it on a conceptual level or not if you discount the platonic stuff. Isn't it generally accepted that heaven and hell in their entirety is 1-A? And the Silver City has similar statements of transcending the multiverse and whatnot.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I don't think 1-A will be accepted here unless there is explicit information in the new comics proving they are.

 

[Antvasima]

The Silver City being contained within the multiverse, rather than transcending both it and the Endless, would likely be a massive inconsistency.

Anyway, I am way too tired and overworked to continue to humour this discussion, and would appreciate help with writing a new rule against the topic, as I have had to extensively repeatedly deal with it, and it is a waste of time.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I mean multiverse as in everything within the Bleed. Below the Sphere of the Gods. Not like outside the Multiverse in the Overvoid directly to clarify.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

And the SC is still in the Sphere of the Gods in heaven. It's just not as accessible as the other realms I guess.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I've heard that Justice League is going to be going on for 75 issues or so, so perhaps a rule where we don't discuss the Sphere of Gods or 5th Dimension till JL ends or we get new info in the upcoming Year of Villain Arc?

 

[Antvasima]

In Sandman and Lucifer it was treated as far more impressive than by Morrison. We definitely cannot scale the New Gods from the archangels.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I mean. I don't see how he treated it any different. Also it's not scaling to the archangels. It's just pointing out 1-A realms being in the Sphere of the Gods.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Yeah but in Sandman, Lucifer and Books of Magic it's implied that the Silver City existed before everything like the Sphere of Gods

 

[Antvasima]

Stating that the Silver City and the inhabitants are just comparable to the New Gods and any pagan deities, is definitely an unfathomable outlier compared to how Gaiman treated it.

Again, I REALLY don't have the time and energy to keep arguing about this topic over and over and over and over though, and would greatly appreciate staff help with a discussion rule.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

@Unknown You mean like Lucifer fell before creation? Iirc he fell after creation and fell to the deepest parts and then shaped ot for himself. I don't remember it being implied in Books of Magic. They just depicted a void before creation.

@Ant I don't remember stating that. I said 1-A realms are encompassed by the Sphere of the Gods. I'm not scaling characters. Even then there isn't much difference between regular Angels and Gods. Archangels are another matter entirely.

 

[Antvasima]

The archangels are a part of the Silver City. Morrison's and Gaiman's takes seem to contradict each other.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, nothing will happen here. 1-A New Gods would be a completely unreasonable outlier interpretation, so I would much prefer to close this discussion... after having to deal with it far too many times I might add.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Ok. I was just bringing stuff to the table not trying to force anything.