21st Budokai Roshi Downgrade

[Promestein]

Blah blah blah Roshi only barely beats Goku in the 21st Budokai and admits as much himself;

That was a close one, Goku, and I must admit my victory was only due to our sizes. My legs are longer, so I could hit much deeper on that last flying kick. Sort of a cheap trick, but it was my only chance, and it was for your own good; maybe you'll thank me someday, when you're older.

He's obviously become stronger by the time of the 22nd, and his MAX Power state is about the same either way, so he should just have separate keys for his 21st Budokai base and his 22nd Budokai (and onwards) base, with his 21st Budokai self being Building level, like Goku.

 

[DMUA]

I have nothing to say because I don't have access to OG DB in dubs, only subs, so I haven't watched it yet

 

[Warren_Valion]

Was it ever stated that Roshi got stronger?

Because I always made the assumption that going into his MAX Power form and blowing up the moon drained him considerably, which lead him to have such a close match with Goku. Otherwise, I feel like he would win against Goku easily.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm fine with this. PS, Master Roshi has 5 speed keys at the moment with Relativistic listed twice; might want to fix that real quick. Though, Warren makes a good point actually.

 

[Promestein]

He was having an even match with Goku up to that point anyways.

 

[Warren_Valion]

IIRC, Roshi was trying to make Goku give up throughout the fight and begged him to stop fighting at points.

Goku was about to do it until he looked at the moon and transformed. Leading to Roshi blowing it up and getting weaker, leading to an even fight.

 

[Promestein]

If Roshi could've easily stopped the fight at any point he never would've used Thunder Shock Surprise.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Roshi's actual goal tbh was to outright curbstomp Goku because he didn't want to think "Oh this tournament stuff is too easy." Flashback just came back to me. And even Roshi was worried he might not have won and had to outright lie about there being fighters as strong as Chun/himself or even say he's holding back and all that.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Roshi was beating Goku handily throughout the fight, and it was only Goku's tenacity, creativity, and dumb luck that got him as far as he got.

Goku waking up on the promise of food for example.

And if you want to play that game, Roshi could have gone MAX Power immediately, and both blitz and body Goku out of the ring. I blame CIS/PIS as the reason to why the fight wasn't a stomp, what's fun without a struggle.

Anyway, I'm going to bed as it is 1 AM where I am, so goodnight.

 

[Promestein]

Roshi made him fall asleep with a special technique, it's not like he knocked him out with a punch. Again, if Roshi could've easily beaten him, why just rely on all these gimmicky techniques? He could've just slapped him out of the ring.

Roshi doesn't use MAX Power when unnecessary, way too much strain. It's neither CIS or PIS, as Roshi makes it clear that Goku was actually a challenge, and it's not like Roshi gets out of it without taking damage.

 

[SCP-Uroshima]

Roshi's goal was indeed to win, it wasn't like he was bloodlusted though. He was trying to teach Goku something and give him a good hard fight. Him completely bodying Goku at the start of the fight (which he could have done btw, although his moonbusting feat this early on is a heavy outlier but he would deffinitly speed blitz him) would have taught him nothing at all.

This is just his relationship as a teacher to Goku making the fight much closer then it would have been if they where both bloodlusted.

This is almost like we are assuming SBA for in verse fights/cannon.

TLDR Roshi wasn't bloodlusted.

 

[Promestein]

No one's saying he's bloodlusted, and I don't see how Roshi bodying Goku at any point wouldn't have taught him anything. Roshi is visibly injured and surprised at many points throughout the fight.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Considering Roshi had to lie about being able to move the bigger rock to keep them interested, and admitted to himself he should have pointed to a mountain when Goku and Krillin actually moved it. So yeah, Master Roshi at least in his base form back then really isn't all that strong and wasn't even sure if he could beat Goku. He probably trained in secret and/or with Krillin and Yamcha during the time skip like he did throughout DBZ and Super.

 

[Promestein]

Even if he was stronger, why wouldn't he have trained anyways?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We may still need more input, but I'm on board with the new key/downgrade.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I think a new key is fine.