A Certain Upgrade to Some Characters

[XDragnoir]

Well, this is my first CRT, and, first of everything, i will not put quotes from the LNs here in the OP, but if any of you want, i can provide to some of the changes i am going to suggest.

To really start this CRT: Kamijou Touma and Kamisato Kakeru.

For Touma, i think his current tiering is weird/wrong:

9C, At least 5B with the Invisible Thing (Made Fiamma felt useless), High 1C with Imagine Breaker (Destroyed Gungnir, nulled the Flaming_Sword). To me this makes more sense.

And possibly reactive evolution to Imagine Breaker

OT02 Aureolus could use 3 things in Touma, Reality Warping, Space manipulation and Air manipulation. In OT04 Angel Fall was useless against him (Reality Warping), in OT12 Divine Punishment was useless against him (Air manipulation) and in NT09 he was able to walk in the void created by Othinus (Space manipulation).

OT06 Touma felt pain after punching the stone golem (Magic enhanced physical attack). In OT16 he could easily stop Acqua's Moon Spell (Magic enhanced physical attack).

For Kamisato is a bit simple:

9C, At least 5B, possibly High 1C with World Rejecter (Is the counterpart of Imagine Breaker, can possibly work against Full Power True Magic Gods).

Now, Accelerator and his reflection speed and possible Clairvoyance:

At the current moment, to avoid NLFs, we treat Accel as being limited to reflect attacks at 2 times the speed of light. Then i asked if someone could calc what is the time Light needs to cross 1cm, and DT said: "Speed of light is 29979245800 cm/s, so his calculation speed in post-headshot base should sits at 0.0000000000333564 seconds"

As for Clairvoyance:

In the start of NT20(or 21, i could not find it right now, but whatever) is said that using the Tarot Cards to predict the future is something anyone (with the proper knowledge) can do, but something (if i am not mistaken it's Coronzon) stops most people of being able to do so. In the end of NT22, Accel acquired all the knowledge of the 78 tarot cards and is now beyond the Sephirot/Coronzon's control, but he is possibly unaware of the tarot cards being inside his mind, so he should have Possibly Clairvoyance.

Othinus and her dimensionality:

This isn't a suggestion, it's more a question of mine. Some months ago, in a Vs Thread, someone said Othinus is not a 11D being, she just has 11D hax, and most of the peoples in this thread agreed with that, is this true? If it is, here is my suggestion:

Unknown [at the very least 5B] physically (Is much stronger than before, but we don't know if Gungnir boost her existence to a 11D one) High 1C with Gungnir and Probability manipulation (Gungnir can destroy all the phases, and her probability is the only confirmed thing to be powered up by him).

Aiwass, Gabriel, Coronzon, Qliphah and Aleister:

The first three are not from our phase, Aiwass is from Pure World, and only has a physical body while interacting with our world, thus his regen is Low-godly, Gabriel is from Heaven and only has a body while in our world, these two should just have Low-godly, because they don't need their bodies at all, but gabriel has at least High regen in his profile.

Coronzon is from Da'at and, different from the first 2, she needs her body, but she should have a non-combat apliccable low-godly. In the very end of NT22, the narration says she comes back to life because after her soul and body were separated only one was destroyed (her soul) and this is the same as saying you need to destroy both her soul and body.

As for Qliphah and Aleister:

Qliphah is a little more stranger than Coronzon. First, she is an artificial demon, she also don't need her body, being able to create a new one with any amount of thrash, and can even alter between a corporeal and non-corporeal state, but, after her fight with Aleister, who popped her body like a balloon, she needed a huge amount of time to fully regenerate. What we know is that she can not be killed before you destroy the Qliphot, but what Qliphot exactly? There are 3 options:

An object: never mentioned, and if it really was an object, Aleister should be able to destroy the 10 spheres and 22 path with one attack.

An Concept: yes, Aleister can destroy concepts with Archtype Controller, but the Qliphot is one of the two trees which rules reality (so a type 2 or 3 concept), and i don't see Aleister destroying something like that.

Qliphah's soul: Qliphah was created using Coronzon as a model, by Coronzon herself, Qliphah can also do all the things i said before. If it really is her soul, why it is called as a Qliphot? Simple, Coronzon shaped Qliphah's soul like a Qliphot to grant Qliphah all her madness and demon powers. And going by what happens in her fight with Aleister, you need to destroy the 10 spheres and 22 paths one by one (Aleister only destroyed the 10 spheres and thought that was enough to kill Qliphah), this should be enough to give Soul Manipulation resistence, and Regenerationn (Low-godly normally, high-mid if her soul is highly damaged).

Edit: i just noticed that i don't explained one thing about Aleister.

He could not destroy Corazon's soul, why should he be able to destroy Qliphah's? Simple, in his fight with Qliphah, Aleister says he has mastered the Qliphot, but Coronzon is from the Sephirot, an entirely different tree, which Aleister has not mastered.

 

[XDragnoir]

The whole text must have thousands of grammar errors, but I swear I did my best.

 

[Accelerate420]

IB having reactive evolution makes sense to me, at least for now. Especially what you put.

For Accel, I don't really feel the reflection speed is needed to be added since that's an extreme low ball when reflecting light is one of his most basic and easiest formula's even without the network kicking into overdrive for him, let alone Clonoth calculations as Malox has stated in previous threads. If you had to rank it, I'd give it 'at least MFTL' in battery and 'MFTL' with Clonoth/Platinum wings. It's just not really a good idea to factor in that calc to his reflection when it literally takes him 0 effort that even his non-battery mode can produce that formula automatically.

Clairovoyance is possible for sure, at least on Mina's level too, since she runs the Thoth Tarot, with access to all of them, I assume he should be able to replicate Mina's calculation levels with them. How though is out there, so I'd leave it as 'non combat applicable' atm personally.

Othinus: She already has 11D magic without Gungnir. Gungnir does not give her it, it equalizes her probability issues to make her always have 100% success. It's how she just pulled it out of her ass when Touma was in play. She can create Gungnir as much as she wants so long as someone is unlucky enough to influence the probability in her favor. It's a stablization device, to put it simply, but she could always perform it. Having 11D magic backfiring on yourself would certainly /not/ be fun, would it?

Aiwass is pretty accurate for the most part. Gabriel and Archangels are just masses of Telesma afterall. Even if you kill them they will likely be able to be summoned from Heaven again anyhow since they're just energy taken form. Similar to the angel in OT1. However, since they need to be called down, if they aren't in Heaven, then their regen is somewhat useless. Aiwass's self is more so a projection in the current phase than his real body, so I can agree with it, but I'm not super familiar with the regen tiers again so feel free for anyone to correct me.

Everything else does sound about right to me. Even after getting light-gibbed without her body, Coronzon still survived, and an exorcism was necessary to fully kill her in her soul form. So it's likely soul hax would seal the deal on her but brute force and the like likely cannot kill her with her soul out.

I'm in agreement with most of this aside from the calculations, but I'm open to seeing everyone elses thoughts.

 

[Malox1696]

ib does not have reactive evolution, it's literally a back up file, everything not inside it will be negated, but it has to interact with it

in ot 2 izzard only used indirect reality warping, air manipulation was a targeted area not like vento DP (he made a clump of still air in touma throat), reality warping did not work on touma, space manipulation did not interact with touma, in nt 9 othinus made the void especially for touma to survive after all the point was break him mentally (if she really removed everything than touma would not breath as there is no atmosphere or air)

in ot 6 he felt pain cause it's still a rock, touma hand is not made of metal, ot16 it was explained that touma was about to succumb after momentarily stop the attack, again touma is not made of steel

IB can't have reactive evolution , it's a more complete version of accel reflection, while he needs to add data or thing will pass through , IB has a white list like accel but anything not in it will be negated no need to have knowledge about it (it's a back up file, if u restore ur pc with a back up it does not care of any other data right ? same with IB)

kamisato WR would work on anything if the condition are set (its similar teleportation), no need for at least 5B

accel reflect light WITHOUT the esper power mode on, soi even then it's and absurdly low ball estimation

no clarovirance, don't make assumption

MG are generally human that ascended to the postion of MG through knowledge of magic or miracles, they should be 3 dimensional , but their power comes from them self , gungunir etc are just tool to make the possibility go to 100% especially othinus nerfed herself to 50%50%, originally she was just like the other MGs , already complete

 

[Scrlk666777]

I think the invisible thing probably should be "At least 5-B, likely far higher" but I'm not sure about upgrading to High 1-C though for IB. Touma was only able to nullify the flaming_sword after Coronzon was severely weakened by Accel. I'm not against this, I'm just not sure. I don't think IB evolves either.

On Accel's reflection speed. He shouldn't have a limit on this but if there must be then he's at least MFTL in base and MFTL+ with wings and the Clonoth.

On clairvoyance. Techically Accel should have Clairvoyence as he not only gained the knowledge of the 78 cards but also gained abyss knowledge. The only problem is that we have no real proof as of yet. I think the only thing we can possibly go by, and this is a huge stretch, is when he hinted that he could still find and hurt Coronzon even without Qliphah linking them and the other is possibly when he dodged Elizard's attack. But as I said these are both a stretch and there is not proper proof with either.

But really having the 78 cards implanted in him and gaining abyss knowledge has certaintly gained him something but what that properly is, is pretty much unknown for now.

 

[XDragnoir]

Aureolus' Ars Magnus is reality warping, so when he mada the air stay in Touma's throat, he was using reality warping to do air manipulation, and the space manipulation was stretching the room indefinitely, which Touma could not null.

And yes, Accel needs a speed limit, because we know he needs time to calc things and not having a limit is literally NLF.

 

[Scrlk666777]

It's not NLF and Accel's reflection is literally always up, the speed limit is based on how quickly Accel can put his reflection up before he's attacked but as I said his reflection is always up as long as his power is on esper mode or just always up in pre-headshot. There's a reason why his reflection also works on a white list filter.

 

[Malox1696]

Aureolus' Ars Magnus is reality warping, so when he mada the air stay in Touma's throat, he was using reality warping to do air manipulation, and the space manipulation was stretching the room indefinitely, which Touma could not null.
And yes, Accel needs a speed limit, because we know he needs time to calc things and not having a limit is literally NLF.

i fully know is reality warping, but he did not warp touma directly, using it in the middle of his throat is no different from somewhere else(vento attack was an area effect that removed oxygen from the body very different), obv he can't null the space, he need to touch it with his right hand, again it's indirect so its all fair games

i do agree that there is a speed limit but that estimation is ultra low considering he can do it when not in esper mode

 

[Scrlk666777]

Btw I do agree that there should be a speed limit but it shouldn't be low balled imo.

 

[Accelerate420]

MFTL baseline Pre-headshot/post reflection speed limit, MFTL+ clonoth is what I'd put if we needed it, since he was calcling light energies at practical nanoseconds at a time against Kakine while also defending the city and toying with him, at less than half calc capacity. That's the most reasonable you will get and anything below is honestly a lowball.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

Can't see much of this going anywhere.

also you don't need to be higher dimensional to have 11-d ap/dura. Othinus is obviously a 3rd dimensional character. Makes no difference.

 

[Malox1696]

just so u understand, saying the speed of accel calc based on the esper mode not active is like basing goku god mode power on base goku

 

[Scrlk666777]

If we go by stages from Accel with Esper power off, Esper power on, Clonoth and wings then each would scale differently.

Accel even with his battery in non esper mode can still casually reflect light, so even in this mode his speed of his reflection is 'At least' LS. With his electrode in esper mode then his rate of speed for his reflection would be much great, imo At least MFTL and with wings and Clonoth MFTL+

The wings are actually tricky to measure in reality though since we don't really know if calculations are needed in that mode. Very little are known about Accel's wings really.

 

[XDragnoir]

Bump

 

[XDragnoir]

Bump

 

[Scrlk666777]

I haven't got anything new to add really but I have done a minor Kakine revison CRT thread. I added your Small Size (Type 7) in. Here's the thread, Thread:3427457

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask the following members to comment here:

LazyHunter

CoreOfimBalance(COB)

DontTalkDT

 

[LazyHunter]

Touma and Kakeru's hands could get updated to High 1-C, but we would have to treat IB struggling against weaker stuff as inconsistencies. I guess that you could add to the High 1-C reasoning that IB can negate Curtana Original's All-Dimension Severing spell.

Reactive evolution for IB doesn't make sense. A spell/supernatural power can work on him while other power of the same nature fails to do so because of context/specific mechanics of the spells/powers. Aureolus Ars Magna affected Touma because he didn't target IB. For example, he likely choked him because he imagined Ars Magna affecting his throat, which is why Touma needed to touch his throat to undo the effect. Meanwhile Divine Punishment appears to affect the entire body, thus it likely doesn't work because it would automatically also affect his right hand and gets nulled. The part about Ellis and Acqua is also explicitly wrong. The reason Touma hurt his fist punching Ellis is because Ellis is made of real materials. Touma punching it might negate the magic animating the golem and the momentum behind the punch, but he is still punching solid rock with all his strength.

Blood flowed out of the boy's fist.

But that wasn't because of the strength of the stone golem, but because the boy had used all his strength to hit the hard and rough surface of the rock. The cannon-like hit of the stone golem had lost all its power the moment it had touched the boy's fist. No, more accurately, it was the moment when the boy's fist had touched the transparent membrane which surrounded the stone golem's fist like a magnetic field.

The only thing that doesn't have an easy explanation is Aureolus rendering him completely immobile in their first encounter, but since we don't know how exactly Aureolus imagined doing so, we can't say how he bypassed IB. But Touma walking in NT9's black world is not evidence of anything, considering he can also breathe, see and talk normally despite the world supposedly lacking air and light, or even gravity. The explanation for that one is just 'magic', the most we can argue is that IB might let Touma survive and act in similar scenarios of someone reality warping the universe away.

Accelerator hasn't used Clairvoyance nor has he given indication he knows how to use it. Unless he does, he shouldn't have it. I don't see a reason to change Accelerator's reflection speed, I think it should be rated by the fastest thing he has redirected.

Gabriel is a bit unclear in that it regenerated from its own exploded energy but maybe it could be capable of doing the same by absorbing water like it does to gain power. I'm not sure about Gabriel. Aiwass showed the ability to immediately recreate its avatar-less energy body even after being defeated if it wants to pop back up again. We don't know if Coronzon can immediately recreate its physical body if it is destroyed and the soul remains untouched or what the process for doing so might be, because the body wasn't destroyed in the series. It's possible it only works one way and Coronzon could return to the world because its vessel was still there.

Not sure about Othinus, I'm not the best person to ask about Tier 1.

Disagree with Qliphah and Aleister's stuff, it's just speculation. All we can say is that Aleister destroyed Qlippah's body without seemingly leaving a trace. Aleister hasn't used Archetype Controller as more than a means to manipulate people/groups, so unless he uses it as a weapon in a fight the point about is moot.

 

[XDragnoir]

O did not read the first 10 OT LNs, my bad about the golem. Accel's shield best speed feat is reflecting light afaik, but no one never calculated how fast Accel is by doing so, if i'm not mistaken, we treat Accel's speed limit as being 2x SoL, to avoid NLFs, but the calc DT provided is way better than this.

 

[Scrlk666777]

It should be MFTL period. This is just lowballing

 

[DontTalkDT]

but the calc DT provided is way better than this.

Actually, it kinda isn't. It is basically the same thing just expressed differently.

 

[Scrlk666777]

O did not read the first 10 OT LNs, my bad about the golem. Accel's shield best speed feat is reflecting light afaik, but no one never calculated how fast Accel is by doing so, if i'm not mistaken, we treat Accel's speed limit as being 2x SoL, to avoid NLFs, but the calc DT provided is way better than this.

It's not an NLF, no matter what. His shield is passive and it's always up by deault, you can't outblitz it. You can make an arguement though when it comes to infinite speed but anything less, no,

 

[Accelerate420]

It should be MFTL, but in truth it shouldn't even be a factor whatsoever on this wiki since 90% of the matches are speed equalized anyways. Speed has never once been a factor to begin with nor has been cited as a method. and if we're going off DT's, then SoL is an insane low ball for ability mode's reflection 'speed'.

Theoretically Accelerator should be able to go as fast as he wants in the verse by magnifying what is already there as much as he wants to. But Index already has a Rev speed cap for WR land accidentally sucking you in so his max speed should be at least Relativistic.

But why are we having this discussion again? No one cares about the reflection speed anyways in fights. It's always just "can x get through".

 

[Scrlk666777]

It's basically "let's just say anything works against reflection because we want it to" even though in universe, it's stressed that only three things work against reflection, Accelerator lack of understanding of something, the Kihara counter and someone having higher calucation power, but the last one does no damage so really it shouldn't count. I think it comes from the lack of understanding of Accel;s power and most just simifying the defination of vectors to simple Magnitude and direction when in reality, vectors are much more than that and a lot more complicated to boot.

I think the speed thing comes from how fast Accel can calculate and because most think his shield is automatic but that latter is actually wrong because it doesn't automatically come up when he;s being attack, it's up as soon as he turns his electrode on and on all the time in pre-headshot. He has it up by default.

But anyway I'm pretty much wasting my breath here really. There should be no speed limit really as no one uses it.

 

[Accelerate420]

It's basically "let's just say anything works against reflection because we want it to" even though in universe, it's stressed that only three things work against reflection, Accelerator lack of understanding of something, the Kihara counter and someone having higher calucation power, but the last one does no damage so really it shouldn't count. I think it comes from the lack of understanding of Accel;s power and most just simifying the defination of vectors to simple Magnitude and direction when in reality, vectors are much more than that and a lot more complicated to boot.
I think the speed thing comes from how fast Accel can calculate and because most think his shield is automatic but that latter is actually wrong because it doesn't automatically come up when he;s being attack, it's up as soon as he turns his electrode on and on all the time in pre-headshot. He has it up by default.

But anyway I'm pretty much wasting my breath here really. There should be no speed limit really as no one uses it.

I think what's more funny is there are people that think someone smarter can just automatically by-pass it if they can 'calc faster than him'. I've seen people toss that around like it means something.

 

[Scrlk666777]

I've actually not heard that argument yet but it doesn't surprise me that they would use such an argument although it doesn't work like that.

 

[AeonofHorus2]

The Qliphoth is the Evil Tree which is the inverse of the Sephiroth or Tree of Life. The Sephiroth is a law/concept that determines the ranking of all beings from humans to angels and so on. The Evil Tree is the same but for evil creatures such as demons instead. Coronzon isnt on the Qliphoth for reasons explained in NT 22. Both Coronzon and Aleister can affect the trees in different ways, I'm too lazy to list them all but they both should have Law/Concept Manipulation.

 

[Accelerate420]

Oh yeah, that's something I was thinking about. Aleister affected the Qliphoth and destroyed some Sphere's, that is conceptual manipulation.

 

[Scrlk666777]

If that is the case should Accelerator and Qliphah also have that as well?

 

[AeonofHorus2]

If that is the case should Accelerator and Qliphah also have that as well?

I don't think Qliphah can directly influence the trees, she more supplies knowledge of them to Accel so he can access Clonoth. Although it seems she is unable to be killed unless the evil tree itself is destroyed, and the evil tree can even restore the spheres over time even when they were destroyed by Aleister. So possible Mid Godly regen for Qliphah?

 

[Accelerate420]

Qliphah should had Mid Godly yes. I don't think Qliphah and Accel should have it-- even though Accel's vectors are already conceptual in nature, he hasn't really controlled concepts yet. I do definitely believe Aleister has Conceptual manipulation. I'm not sure about Coronzon though since she seems to only be able to pull attacks down it and move up and down the Sephirot, but Aleister for sure should be able to affect concepts/metaphysical stuff.

 

[Oma-Zi_o022]

I have question in toaruverse not had 11D being?

I not seen Higher-Dimensional Existence in they profile

 

[Malox1696]

I think what's more funny is there are people that think someone smarter can just automatically by-pass it if they can 'calc faster than him'. I've seen people toss that around like it means something.

smarter ? no

having more calc power ? yes

if accel were to face some super computer that can translate his calculation powers in reality warping (like esper) and could calculate the future of the universe, then yes it would ignore accel field

 

[Scrlk666777]

If that is the case should Accelerator and Qliphah also have that as well?

I don't think Qliphah can directly influence the trees, she more supplies knowledge of them to Accel so he can access Clonoth. Although it seems she is unable to be killed unless the evil tree itself is destroyed, and the evil tree can even restore the spheres over time even when they were destroyed by Aleister. So possible Mid Godly regen for Qliphah?

I don't see why she wouldn't. She's basically the Coronzon of the Clonoth and thus has full control of it.

 

[Malox1696]

she is made of "energy" the only way to kill her is sever the source of her power similar to grimories like mathers


so it should be low-god

 

[Scrlk666777]

Qliphah should had Mid Godly yes. I don't think Qliphah and Accel should have it-- even though Accel's vectors are already conceptual in nature, he hasn't really controlled concepts yet. I do definitely believe Aleister has Conceptual manipulation. I'm not sure about Coronzon though since she seems to only be able to pull attacks down it and move up and down the Sephirot, but Aleister for sure should be able to affect concepts/metaphysical stuff.

I was more thinking about being able to take control of the third tree in one way or another. But if we are talking vectors though, then techically a vector is a concept. There's actually so much misunderstanding about vectors, really. I mean if most knew the full scope of vectors, in all areas then they would realize just how broken his power actually is.

 

[Zensum]

I have question in toaruverse not had 11D being?

I not seen Higher-Dimensional Existence in they profile

True MG's should have this, not sure why they don't tbh

 

[Hizack123]

Just add that then

 

[Oma-Zi_o022]

I have question in toaruverse not had 11D being?

I not seen Higher-Dimensional Existence in they profile

True MG's should have this, not sure why they don't tbh

We can add it in they profile?

 

[Accelerate420]

I think what's more funny is there are people that think someone smarter can just automatically by-pass it if they can 'calc faster than him'. I've seen people toss that around like it means something.

smarter ? no
having more calc power ? yes

if accel were to face some super computer that can translate his calculation powers in reality warping (like esper) and could calculate the future of the universe, then yes it would ignore accel field

No it wouldn't. It wouldn't automatically ignore his field, but if they were that smart they could out-calculate the redirection like Mina did by abusing her Physiology. If I punch Accelerator and I'm smarter than him, does that mean because I can calc faster than him my punch will ignore his vectors?