A (Hopefully) Simple rewording to Superman (Original)’s note

[DragonLord]

This has been bugging me for a while. But currently a note on Superman (Original)’s page goes like this

• During his fight with Post-Crisis Superman, they broke the space-time continuum. However, this should likely be taken as unquantifiable plot convenience.

now while I’m not here to upgrade anyone. I think it should be obvious the issue here. The note gives what’s basically a blatant Low 2-C feat and then calls it Plot convenience without any further context. It just looks silly to anyone reading

If no further explanation or better reasoning can be given it would be better to just say something akin to

• During his fight with Post-Crisis Superman, they broke the space-time continuum. However, this has been deemed a Outlier

 

[ShakeResounding]

I agree, this always seemed bizarre to me.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Wasn't it caused because of different matter shenanigans?

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

I agree as well. That was always weird

 

[ElixirBlue]

Seems to make sense

 

[JED]

1000% agree

 

[DragonLord]

Looks like a job for a Bump

 

[Stefano4444]

There is also to consider the actions of Superboy-Prime and Alexander Luthor Jr.

The two characters did severely damage the space-time continuum even before the clash between the two Superman, with Alex splitting New Earth intro a new multiverse and Prime with his Reality Altering punches.

So how we can be sure everything Kal-L and Kar-El did was due of their own strength and not because the universe was already destabilize?

 

[DragonLord]

Bump

 

[Confluctor]

What Stefano said ^

I think we should do something like this:

• During his fight with Post-Crisis Superman, they broke the space-time continuum, which was previously damaged and destabilised by the actions of Alexander Luther JR and Superboy Prime.

You could probably mention the outlier bit somewhere but I don't think it is one personally

 

[Bernkastelll]

I think the stuff above does makes sense ^

 

[KLOL506]

Actually, that feat wasn't legit to begin with. I remember FanofRPGs debunking it saying that this wasn't due to Kal-L and Post-Crisis Kal-El fighting the living crap out of each other, but because Alexander Luthor had already ****** up the universe well ahead of them.

Firestorm808 should be able to elaborate further on this I reckon. Most of the well-known Universe level feats around most of the fandom are just either heavily taken out-of-context or are just straight up not done by Supes to begin with. Which has ultimately massively hindered our progress for finding actual Tier 2 feats that have legitimate basis to scale to Superman at his peak which would've been applicable now thanks to the "holding back" revisions that we recently finished a few months back. But those are for another time.

 

[Confluctor]

Yeah a lot of Crisis (all of them) feats are to be questioned heavily due to the nature of the story - ala destabilized multiverse and whatnot.

 

[DragonLord]

What Stefano said ^

I think we should do something like this:

You could probably mention the outlier bit somewhere but I don't think it is one personally

calling it an outlier was simply the last case option if no one could make a better explanation or debunk of the feat. I’m open to any suggestions here as long as they have the scans I can use to back it up and of course gets support

 

[Confluctor]

I am not sure if I can read the entire comic myself to get scans, but could probably do it some other time if I get time.

Tho I will wait and see if Firestorm got any scans of it. He usually has these kinds of stuff in a blog or something.

 

[DragonLord]

Bump

 

[DragonLord]

Bump

 

[DragonLord]

Bump

 

[DragonLord]

Bump

 

[DragonLord]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Actually, that feat wasn't legit to begin with. I remember FanofRPGs debunking it saying that this wasn't due to Kal-L and Post-Crisis Kal-El fighting the living crap out of each other, but because Alexander Luthor had already ****** up the universe well ahead of them.

Firestorm808 should be able to elaborate further on this I reckon. Most of the well-known Universe level feats around most of the fandom are just either heavily taken out-of-context or are just straight up not done by Supes to begin with. Which has ultimately massively hindered our progress for finding actual Tier 2 feats that have legitimate basis to scale to Superman at his peak which would've been applicable now thanks to the "holding back" revisions that we recently finished a few months back. But those are for another time.

Thank you for helping out.

@Firestorm808 @KLOL506

How do you think that we can modify the note so it turns more accurate?

 

[KLOL506]

Thank you for helping out.

@Firestorm808 @KLOL506

How do you think that we can modify the note so it turns more accurate?

Not sure, prolly look it up in Fan's blog to take as help maybe?

Again, Firestorm's the guy who can fix it up. He was working closely with Fan on the feats.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. We can wait for him then.

 

[Firestorm808]

IIRC, by the time they were fighting, the space-time continuum was already broken/damaged due to Alexander Luthor's plan to bring back the multiverse.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the reply. So how do you think that we should reword the footnote in the profile page?

 

[Firestorm808]

I can elaborate on that later today.

 

[DragonLord]

Like I said earlier. Whatever rewrite is made should have relevant scans and sources

 

[Antvasima]

I can elaborate on that later today.

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

Like I said earlier. Whatever rewrite is made should have relevant scans and sources

That would be preferable, yes.

 

[Firestorm808]

• Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #1 | December 2005
  • At the Polaris Galaxy of Sector 2682, a 95 million-mile tear in reality swallows a neighboring galaxy.
  • The Guardians of the universe state the universe is splitting apart. Planets have been destroyed and transported across sectors. The cosmic balance, the very fabric of existence, has been shifted. Oa is no longer the center of the universe. The tear in reality is.
• Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #4, March 2006 | Geoff Johns
  • Alexander activates the tuning fork, and his giant hands appear from the tear in the center of the universe. Earth 2 is remade, and the previous inhabitants of Earth-2 were transported there.
  • Take note of the background and tear the Alexander's hands come out of.
• Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #5, April 2006 | Geoff Johns
  • Earth-2 appears right next to New Earth. All the previous inhabitants of Earth-2 were transported there.
  • The fight between the Supermen starts and ends in this comic. Kal-L blames Superman for bringing his "corruption" that killed Lois when she just died of old age. No one really comments about any universal effects because of the fight.
  • After the fight, Earth 2 Superman is used as the key to the return of the multiverse.
• Superman Vol 2 #226 | April 2006 | Joe Kelly, Jeph Loeb
  • This is Your Life, Part I of III
  • Superman of New Earth fights with the Superman of Earth-Two in the skies of Metropolis above the Daily Star on Earth-Two. For lack of better words, New Earth Superman has an "What if I was there instead?" experience.
  • New Earth Superman comments "Every time he hit's me, where do I go? Who can strike with such force they shatter [time]?
  • We are shown a panel of different versions of Lois looking up with a familiar background.
• Action Comics Vol 1 #836 | April 2006 | Joe Kelly
  • This is Your Life, Part II of III
  • Earth 2 Superman has his own "What if I was there instead?" experience.
  • We are shown a panel of different versions of Jimmy Olsen falling on the ground.
• Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #649 | April 2006 | Joe Kelly
  • This Is Your Life, Part III of III
  • Both Supermen are blaming the other for the "Death Throes" of the universe. They believe that "the struggle between them has shattered the boundaries of space and time," allowing them to experience the life of the other and what-if scenarios.
  • Up to this point, we know that Alexander's plan and the tear in reality are the cause of all the issues. The Supermen are just assuming that they are responsible. While Earth 2 Superman did break the dimensional wall, he has not shown the "retcon punches" as Superboy.
  • The panel shows different pairs of Superman fighting each other with the same familiar background.

 

[DragonLord]

• Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #1 | December 2005
  • At the Polaris Galaxy of Sector 2682, a 95 million-mile tear in reality swallows a neighboring galaxy.
  • The Guardians of the universe state the universe is splitting apart. Planets have been destroyed and transported across sectors. The cosmic balance, the very fabric of existence, has been shifted. Oa is no longer the center of the universe. The tear in reality is.
• Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #4, March 2006 | Geoff Johns
  • Alexander activates the tuning fork, and his giant hands appear from the tear in the center of the universe. Earth 2 is remade, and the previous inhabitants of Earth-2 were transported there.
  • Take note of the background and tear the Alexander's hands come out of.
• Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #5, April 2006 | Geoff Johns
  • Earth-2 appears right next to New Earth. All the previous inhabitants of Earth-2 were transported there.
  • The fight between the Supermen starts and ends in this comic. Kal-L blames Superman for bringing his "corruption" that killed Lois when she just died of old age. No one really comments about any universal effects because of the fight.
  • After the fight, Earth 2 Superman is used as the key to the return of the multiverse.
• Superman Vol 2 #226 | April 2006 | Joe Kelly, Jeph Loeb
  • This is Your Life, Part I of III
  • Superman of New Earth fights with the Superman of Earth-Two in the skies of Metropolis above the Daily Star on Earth-Two. For lack of better words, New Earth Superman has an "What if I was there instead?" experience.
  • New Earth Superman comments "Every time he hit's me, where do I go? Who can strike with such force they shatter [time]?
  • We are shown a panel of different versions of Lois looking up with a familiar background.
• Action Comics Vol 1 #836 | April 2006 | Joe Kelly
  • This is Your Life, Part II of III
  • Earth 2 Superman has his own "What if I was there instead?" experience.
  • We are shown a panel of different versions of Jimmy Olsen falling on the ground.
• Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #649 | April 2006 | Joe Kelly
  • This Is Your Life, Part III of III
  • Both Supermen are blaming the other for the "Death Throes" of the universe. They believe that "the struggle between them has shattered the boundaries of space and time," allowing them to experience the life of the other and what-if scenarios.
  • Up to this point, we know that Alexander's plan and the tear in reality are the cause of all the issues. The Supermen are just assuming that they are responsible. While Earth 2 Superman did break the dimensional wall, he has not shown the "retcon punches" as Superboy.
  • The panel shows different pairs of Superman fighting each other with the same familiar background.

This seems comprehensive enough. Anyone have a idea how to phrase this new note

And by the way. “Earth-2 Superman is the key to the multiverse” seems like an important thing to address as well

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out @Firestorm808 . Would you be willing to write a new footnote, preferably with references included? You can make it quite long if you think this is better.

 

[Firestorm808]

This seems comprehensive enough. Anyone have a idea how to phrase this new note

And by the way. “Earth-2 Superman is the key to the multiverse” seems like an important thing to address as well

I'll think of something.

It's likely what was referenced in Doomsday Clock years later. Earth 2 Superman started it all for DC Comics before it split off into the first multiverse.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I agree with rewording the note.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[DragonLord]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

Sorry. Will work on this later today.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the help.

 

[Firestorm808]

I need some help trimming this down:

At the start of Infinite Crisis #1, there is a 95 million-mile tear in reality at the Polaris Galaxy of Sector 2682, the new center of the universe. In Infinite Crisis #4, when Alexander Luthor activates the Cosmic Tuning Fork, his giant hands appear from the tear, the new center of the universe. Earth 2 is remade. Take note of the background and tear that Alexander's hands come out of. When Kal-L and Kal-El start and stop their fight in Infinite Crisis #5, nothing notable happens to the universe because of them. Kal-L is later used as the key to the return of the multiverse. The DC Comics webpage for Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #5 says that "The DCU shakes apart as Superman of Earth 2 finally confronts our Superman," but they aren't related by causation, just happening at the same time. Alexander Luthor is the cause. During Superman Vol 2 #226 and Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #649, the fight between the Supermen is expanded upon. Thanks to Alexander's plan, Clark misinterprets the effects, mistakenly saying that Kal-L has "a punch that breaks the world" and "can strike with such force they shatter [time]?" Both Supermen are blaming the other for the "Death Throes" of the universe. They believe that "the struggle between them has shattered the boundaries of space and time," allowing them to experience the life of the other and what-if scenarios. Kal-L did break the dimensional wall, he has not shown the same "retcon punches" as Superboy.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Question (since I haven’t read this storyline): how is Post-Crisis Superman holding his own in this fight? Golden Age Superman’s profile says he’s comparable to Superboy-Prime, who’s far above Post-Crisis Superman

 

[Stefano4444]

Question (since I haven’t read this storyline): how is Post-Crisis Superman holding his own in this fight? Golden Age Superman’s profile says he’s comparable to Superboy-Prime, who’s far above Post-Crisis Superman

Yeah about that, Golden Age Superman is not comparable to Superboy-Prime, at least not during Infinite Crisis.

Golden Age Superman had his ass kicked by Prime like everybody else in the story, nothing indicate that they were on the same level or even close.