• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

About BB's Earth Mother's Authority

Reppuzan

VS Battles
Retired
11,444
1,997
I'm a little annoyed at the fact that revisions were made to the descriptions of BB's abilities without consulting the guy who wrote in the vast majority of its contents.

Does it sound like a NLF? Sure. But can we have a little more discussion than "it sounds like a NLF" before we go into it?

Potnia Therion functions based on the concept of life implemented by the Earth Mother Goddess. Due to slaying countless mortals but also rendering the fields fertile, she became the giver of life and death. Thus it became impossible to defy her orders or attack her since doing so would be opposing the concept of "living itself".

By absorbing the data of all the goddeses that made up the aspects that were worshipped after she was forgotten, BB gained this authority and thus the ability to lolnope resistances and make attacks and abilities against her "not happen".

But Rep, this sounds like a clear NLF! I know, I'm getting there.

The first thought would simply be to outmuscle her. If one has much higher AP than her, then it would only be natural that they would be able to override her authority, right?

Not quite.

Meet Kingprotea, one of the Sakura Five that BB herself is a part of. Like BB, she can manipulate the physical laws of the world and actually has significantly more "presence" and thus power than BB in the Moon Cell due to also utilizing the Earth Mother Goddess's data. Due to her unique skills, she can also increase her size and power infinitely at the cost of her intelligence, eventually becoming a "Universe level" threat that will self-destruct once logic and common sense can no longer comprehend how unfathomably large she can become.

Despite being comparable in ability and having even greater raw power, a continuously growing Kingprotea was reverted to a child and sealed by BB into a pocket of imaginary space as a precaution against rebellion.

Thus outmuscling her won't work.

Okay then, what about outhaxing her?

Possible, but improbable. It's explicitly stated that Potnia Therion is an ability that connects to Akasha, making the authority absolute enough that the Heroic Spirit Gil, with his nigh-infinite treasury of conceptual, space-destroying, reality bending weapons can't do jack to her under normal circumstances. Even the Anti-Divine Enkidu and "killing things that lack the concept of dying" Ea won't be able to touch her for as long as this is active.

This also extends to the Divine Spirits, or in layman's terms the gods and goddesses whose origins began on Earth. All of them can warp reality, shape the concepts of civilization, move outside of time, alter the flow of time, and shift events in history, manipulate causality, and use other assorted hax at will. The Earth Mother Goddess's authority is superior to all of them.

So what ca stop her?

By Nasuverse rules, the Earth Mother's Authority is based on Mystery. The older it is, the more powerful it is. Hence, simply being older than Earth itself would bypass it.

Not being born on Earth is another way to get around it. Anything that took its form on the Moon for example (i.e. the AI that is the main character of Fate/Extra) would not be subject to her authority in any way.

Having a "higher grade" of Divinity would also bypass it. For example, in the Nasuverse, Saver and Kiara Sessyoi are both above BB as they govern entire Solar Systems. In the latter case, Kiara absorbed BB and the other High Servants after their respective defeats and reached the level of a True Demon through Hans Christian Anderson's Noble Phantasm.

Being backed by an otherworldly deity whose current form was not made on Earth of significant power would work as well, so the The God Emperor of Mankind and Reinhard Heydrich would fare well against her.

Having infinitely greater power would obviously work as well, even better if that person was a powerful deity. Hence Saint Seiya's Athena will lolstomp BB, but not anything short of God Cloth Pegasus Seiya.

In addition, since her power is tied to the Moon Cell, dragging her out of Imaginary Space and outside of the Moon Cell's influence would also nullify the vast majority of her abilities.

There's also the fact that within all humans is the "Power of the Beginning" a gene from which all other human genes originate. Potnia Therion cannot "undo" this trait, and thus those who are able to analyze Potnia Therion and unlock the Power of the Beginning within themselves can prevent BB's Authority from overtaking them. However, since the Moon CEll's authority was required to unlock this ability, it's presumed that it would take a great deal of knowledge in genetics and magic or powerful reality warping abilities to use this power.

I hope this was a little bit enlightening and could provoke more discussion than "BB is overused. She's a walking NLF."

I apologize for making this an absurdly long post, but I hope this can actually help settle things rather than simply rewriting everything without actual discussion about what her powers do.
 
Would 682s resist authority due to possibly being backed by the Scarlet King?

Also given the amount of BB threads lately and discussions about this, this should be highlighted.
 
@Gargoyle

Depends. Does SCP-682's various abilities come from the Scarlet King? Or are they 3-D versions due to being an offshoot of it?
 
Well, if it's an avatar backed by an 11-D original, then I suppose Earth Mother's Authority wouldn't apply.
 
So, if being older than the earth bypasses it, is there a set age of the earth in Nasuverse or do we just assume it's the same as real life? (4.543 billion years, according to Google)
 
@JSW and Weekly

Same as real-life, so SCP-682 would be unaffected by it then.
 
Assuming that you need to be High 3-A to beat her if you lack causality Hax and are Earth born is still a NLF. I'm sorry, but it is.

Even if it seems like it would be that way in-universe, you cannot assume it applies to all of fiction.
 
@Matt

I should have mentioned this earlier, but other Divinity above her in authority include Saver, who governs entire Solar Systems, and Kiara Sessyoi, who absorbed BB and the other High Servants after their respective defeats and reached the level of a True Demon.

So, there's also the issue of Divinity and what beings "govern" over.
 
Here's a question: Please explain how BB would possibly defeat a 3-B Realjty Warper like Galactus, who can influence all planes of existence (physical, spiritual, astral, mental, conceptual, abstract, illusory, etc.) simultaneously, bend the very forces of the universe (strong Force, weak force, electromagnetism, radiation), bend space-time on a universal scale, mindfuck Odin who can mind-control planets and galaxies worth of people, regenerate from nothing, as well as other haxed abilities.

Assuming he was born on Earth, would you really be comfortable with saying BB beats cause Authority when he outclasses literally everything in the Nasuverse not named Akasha by an absurd amount.
 
@Matt

Found another weakness:

Within all humans is the "Power of the Beginning" a gene from which all other human genes originate. Potnia Therion cannot "undo" this trait, and thus those who are able to analyze Potnia Therion and unlock the Power of the Beginning within themselves can prevent BB's Authority from overtaking them.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
@Matt
Wouldn't Galan's "authority" extend to the whole universe, anyway? He's also older than the universe, so there's that.
I think Adult Franklin Richards is a better example, yeah
 
Hmm... actually I might have found an exchange that might upgrade BB:

BB: Please sever your contract with him immediately. If you do, I will guarantee the safety of you and everyone in the old school building until the end of the universe.

Gilgamesh : Until the end of the universe? How generous of you. Then will you end the universe if she refuses? It wouldn't be very balanced otherwise, would it?

Gilgamesh turns BB's words against her provocatively. …if that's any indication, he's ready to shoot down BB on the spot. Looking at me and Gilgamesh like this,

BB : Of course I will end it. If Hakuno Kishinami does not sever her contract with Gilgamesh, I will bring down all electrical power.

She's saying she'll destroy the universe. The girl in black announces it, not as a bluff or a metaphor, but as if it were natural.

Hmm... this is getting really troublesome.

At the same time, BB passively controls reality, time, space, information, causality, souls, imaginary space, matter at the atomic level, and decides the future while being able to expunge concepts and replace them as well as manipulate any and all of the physical, magical, and conceptual laws of the world at will.

I really don't want to get into a fight with you Matt, but this is becoming a really tough issue.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
@Matt

Wouldn't Galan's "authority" extend to the whole universe, anyway? He's also older than the universe, so there's that.
I was speaking of a hypothetical human with all of Galan's powers. And even with all of BBs hax, what's stopping a Universe buster from casually destroying our entire galactic group before BB even has time to realize what happens?
 
I think Adult Franklin Richards is a better example, yeah

Dude created universes as a toddler. As an adult he's Multiversal.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Here's a question: Please explain how BB would possibly defeat a 3-B Realjty Warper like Galactus, who can influence all planes of existence (physical, spiritual, astral, mental, conceptual, abstract, illusory, etc.) simultaneously, bend the very forces of the universe (strong Force, weak force, electromagnetism, radiation), bend space-time on a universal scale, mindfuck Odin who can mind-control planets and galaxies worth of people, regenerate from nothing, as well as other haxed abilities.
Assuming he was born on Earth, would you really be comfortable with saying BB beats cause Authority when he outclasses literally everything in the Nasuverse not named Akasha by an absurd amount.
I'll answer this for you. Galactus is probably enough to classify as divine. Even in his 3-B tier, he has "Authority" over basically the entire universal space time thanks to being the "sentience of the universe" which is a hell of a lot more than BB. Even assuming he was born on earth, no she would not beat Galactus.

But someone with all the abilities and the 3-B AP listed on his profile, who was born on earth and didn't have that divine authority from being the Sentience of the Universe? Yes. She beats them. Because they are not operating on higher dimensional /dimensionally transcendent causality to transcend and ignore her Authority. They do not have causality manipulation with which to overwhelm the causality manipulation of her Authority. They cannot resist her causality manipulation hax if they do not have feats/statements/comon sense showing this and no amount of AP that works by 3+1-D level of causality is going to change that!
 
Then there's the statements I'm finding about being able to see all of time, past, present, and future simultaneously.

Rin: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you're able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that's the higher dimensional perspective.

You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There's no past or future. It's the same as that. This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe. We are foreign bodies…no, guests. Creatures of the the observed universe that have been thrown into the recorded universe.

Whereas the Moon Cell's Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She's obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously. The moment BB reached the core, she obtained the power to select and determine the future. The Moon Cell, when used to be only the eyes of god, by combining with the AI BB, has become the brain of god.

I don't know how many hours in the future it is, but at any rate BB has reached the Moon Cell. That fact alone is completely immovable. Having thus become a being of the recorded universe, BB, able to make things true retroactively, became aware of "this present moment." …your head gets mixed up thinking about it though. So as soon as she became the Moon Cell, BB was able to convey "this present moment" even to her past self. …So, BB knew from the beginning. That no matter what we wouldn't make it in time.

She also broke through the Moon Cell's defenses, which are Eight-Dimensional:

BB: However… The Moon Cell, you might say impudent, or that its defenses are flawless. Even though I managed to pass through the imaginary number space at the speed of light, a huge wall now stands before our devilish heroine BB-chan! It's a perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions. It looks like it'll be very hard to break down this wall.

But this is the last move. After I break this wall into little pieces I'll have reached my goal. So I've left all of you in Meltlilith's care. The girl can't really take a joke, but her work is perfect. So take care, senpai. Please entertain me with your useless flailing on this layer too ÔÖÑ
 
@Rep Having omnipresence (from Rin's quote) and therefore omniscience (from your quote) throughout space time makes sense considering she absorbed Tiamat who has the same.
 
I would rather just ignore the 6D and 8D statements for the Nasuverse as they completely contradict the overall scale of the verse and are just numbers thrown there and never elaborated upon. We have agreed in the past that we can't simply upgrade everything to Tier 1 if a Hogher-Dimension reference appears.

There's a smart saying that goes "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", and it really applies here.

The Nasuverse is a universe that Caps off at 4-B for people much more powerful than BB.

Is it just ever elaborated how she would destroy the universe, and are things on that level ever repeated or actually shown on-screen? If not, then I wouldn't consider it.

"I'll destroy the universe!" is a scarely common statement in Japanese media coming from villains.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
"I'll destroy the universe!" is a scarely common statement in Japanese media coming from villains.
"I'll destroy the world" maybe. Which could be anything from just life-wiping, to continental/planetary.

But specifically using the word "universe", coming from a being who is omnipresent throughout time, who casually screws with time, space, and causality?

I'd say that the "extraordinary evidence" is there.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
@Rep Having omnipresence (from Rin's quote) and therefore omniscience (from your quote) throughout space time makes sense considering she absorbed Tiamat who has the same.
She's neither. Perceiving all of time doesn't make you Omnipresent. It's just called Cosmic Awareness. It doesn't make you physically everywhere.

I also have to wonder how much of these claims are 100% legitimate since BB can be fought and defeated in a straight up battle by characters who very much aren't temporally Omnipresent and Omniscient.
 
Fair enough. Cosmic awareness then.

As for the second paragraph, it's called CIS + PIS. Or are we downgrading Goku to "laser level" now?
 
@Matt

The Omnipresence comes less from that and more from scaling to Tiamat who is an aspect of the Earth Mother Goddess.

Fair point on the dimension mechanics.

Found the rest of the conversation, she stated that she was simply going to collapse the Reality Marble containing the main characters on top of them.

BB: I do not presently have the right to kill Masters, but it is possible for me to make this sector collapse. I can end all of you and myself as well if necessary. This is the worst and final measure.

Considering the fact that the same Reality Marble can contain a "Universe-level disaster" like Kingprotea, this might still be relevant.

That said, this might contradict the scale of feats as well, so this is still troublesome.

The problem is where do we draw the line on this. Obviously, Franklin can create entire space-times at will while playing around which is above what BB can do, but where would lower-scale Reality Warpers fit on the scale.

I'm trying really hard not to overstate BB's powers, but at the same time I feel that we're being dismissive of Potnia Therion's abilities.

God damn it Nasu writing...
 
I would say that Marvel Skyfathers are a pretty good limit for BBs Authority. She can indeed defeat most weaker opponents.

@Repp

Aren't Reality Marbles not real dimensions?
 
Matt.

BB's Authority is a form of causality manipulation

Let us assume this hypothetical person falls under the restrictions of BB's Authority. They are born of the earth. They are not divine and have no divine authority. They do not have more mystery than BB

What they do have, is space-time manipulation. Concept manipulation. Cosmic Awareness. Reality warping. They are also a 3-A level

They have never shown or been stated to have causality manip, whether on its own or as an aspect of any of their other powers. no way to achieve causality manip. They also have never shown resistance to causality manip.

Would you say that this person can resist or counter the causality manipulation of the Authority?
 
... you do realize that a High enough powered Time Manipulator could counter or reproduce Causality Manipulation, right?

Causality is Cause and Effect, the flow of linear time. Cosmic enough Time Manipulation would counter it.
 
That would be speculation with no feats or statements to back it up though. They have never shown the ability to replicate or mimic or counter causality manipulation.
 
That would be speculation with no feats or statements to back it up though.
That's basically this whole "BB wins unless you're not from earth or don't have casuality hax" thing in a nutshell. These are all NLF.
 
It is causality manipulation. Hax

If you don't have resistance/immunity or counters to that hax, or the way to bypass the ability through its own weakness, it works on you.

Why is this so hard to understand. It has been a staple part of any argument involving hax since I first looked at a debate on this site.
 
Another staple in hax is that you do not assume it to work on levels significantly higher than it has shown. Or make absolute statements regarding it.

The wording the profile had was total NLF. And Matt was right to edit the semantics up a bit. Reppuzan did an excellent job explaining the powers in further detail, but these powers still can't be described as "of all kinds" or "any."

We don't assume people able to withstand powers they haven't shown able to, yes. On the same token we also don't assume people able to do things with powers they haven't shown able to. Like "defeating anyone up until High 3-A." In the same sense one can't go "Nothing but light magic beats Ganon" one can't go "Nothing but higher divinity beats BB."
 
Hax can beat stronger characters. But assuming causality manipulation is ''the'' best hax and unbeatable is NLF
 
I am not saying what hax is superior to what hax. I have never said that.

What I have said is countering your statement that AP higher than the 4-B shown in the Nasucerse could somehow beat Authority's causality manipulation by AP alone.

I am a person who will happily get into the applications of how one power can mimic or counter another, and I completely understand how varying applications of time, space and concept manipulation can successfully mimic causality manipulation. An if the opponent in question is capable of doing such a thing as mimic causality manipulation with their powers, yes, they can counter Authority, just as any causality manipulator of enough power can.

I seriously do not understand how Authority is a No Limits Fallacy when it clearly has many limits, both stated and inferred by common sense.

The power wot affect anyone working on higher dimensional time/causality. That rules out most low 2-Cs and above.

The power won't affect anyone not born of earth.

The power won't work over anyone with a higher divine authority

The power won't affect anyone who can resist the causality manipulation or counter it in some way via their own causality hax or hax that itself works on higher dimensional causality or else it too will simply be nulled as a result of the ability's own causality being manipulated by the authorty

The power won't work on anyone with more Mystery or its verse equalised equivalent, than the Earth.

The power can probably be beaten by affecting the Authority itself rather than BB

Where are the NLFs in this exactly?
 
@Ryukama. I get that you don't assume that it works much higher than shown. But this is causality manipulation that severs cause from effect and erases the effect. It isn't resisting the attack. It makes it so it didn't happen. Unless by some other hax the attack is working by higher dimensional causality that her authority cannot affect, or has its own causality "sealed" or something to make it unchamgeable, it will be affected and it will be made to never have had an effect. Causality literally determines everything that happens on its dimensional level. The only "higher level" to causality is causality that is working by higher dimensional time. Your assumption that the level of causality can be measured by how many/much it affects or the highest level of physical force from an attack it negates goes against what causality is
 
I never said that physical AP alone goes against BB. I'm saying this idea that to say it negates levels of hax ludicrously above what BB has shown to negate like Galactus's, wordings like "any", "all", to say that it beats anyone born on earth regardless of their powers, that there isn't other forms of hax besides casuality manipulation that can stop it, etc. are fallcious.
 
Monarch, I think the problem is here what you said

Causality literally determines everything that happens on its dimensional level.

That is assuming Causality Manipulation is the best hax, better than other abilities and unbeatable.
 
Back
Top