About Mera's physicality

[SquiTwo]

I don't exactly think that statement about Mera going to the hospital after lightly being pushed was legit and seems more like Hyperbole. She may have been fragile in comparable to other characters but she was still able to defeat Indus, albeit with her Epithet. But surviving the attack from Giovanni's Critical 13 would pretty much kill Mera if she was truly Below Average Human level, though after regaining conciousness and even with broken bones. She was still fine. I believe that scaling her to her Epithet and lower tiers like Giovanni, who can take hits from Dr. Beefton would be logical imo.

 

[Agnaa]

There's not just that statement, there's also her backstory of her Epithet making it unsafe for her to play outside, there's descriptions of her Epithet saying it works on her reducing her own durability, there's trivia descriptions saying that she constantly has to take painkillers since her Epithet keeps her in pain constantly, there's the fact that she broke multiple bones while simply looking through some boxes, there's also her motivation - that she wants to end her constant pain through any means necessary.

I think that this huge stack of evidence that's integral to her character supports the statement of her breaking bones when bumping into people. And I think that even if you disregard that as hyperbole, that they still imply a rating far below 9-A/9-B.

I think that surviving the Critical 13 just shows that it's difficult to kill people with normal attacks in-verse, as WoG suggests. I also think that her passing out and breaking many bones shows that she got injured heavily from it, if someone else gave her an attack of that AP she'd pass out which is not viable for a characters' durability rating.

I don't agree with scaling a characters Dura to the AP of their Epithet, we don't do this for magical abilities in most verses, since we need very good reason to do this. I also don't think her Epithet's 9-A for taking out Indus, I think she took Indus out through statistics reduction.

I also don't think scaling Mera to Giovanni makes much sense when Giovanni's shown as having above average durability, while Mera's shown as having far below average durability.

 

[AdamGregory03]

One thing that hasn't been brought up is that Mera survived and was still concious after being tackled by Dr. Beefton, who should easily be > Giovanni, and if Mera's dura really was Below Average Human I think it'd be safe to say both that and Critical 13 would've just killed her on the spot.

Also Mera's backstory doesn't really imply she's any less durable, just that it hurts her to use her Epithet and that she's more susceptible to pain. Imo that shouldn't negate any possible scaling she'd otherwise get.

 

[Agnaa]

I think you're seriously overestimating the certainty that street/wall level attacks kill people instantly. People can survive those attacks IRL with bad injuries, especially if they're towards the center of mass rather than vital organs.

There's two more things wrong with that. Firstly, it isn't just that it hurts her to use her epithet, if that was all it was then she could stop using it to reach her goal of "the pain going away". It's not using it that has her in pain, it's always happening. And the second thing, it really does seem like it reduces her durability. Beyond her statement of bumping into things resulting in a trip to the hospital, she wasn't allowed to play with other children, presumably since she'd get injured too easily.

EDIT: I think Mera surviving is more along the lines of Type 2 Immortality (not actually but it's very similar), or high stamina. She can keep going after 9-B attacks (even if she may get KO'd easily), but can still be damaged by 10-C attacks. Does this seem more agreeable?

She may get back up after some attacks but if her body's damaged sufficiently she'd get KO'd/die.

 

[SquiTwo]

That still ignores the fact that even taking in the "Hard to kill" mentality, Mera literally being like a maximum of 39 joules physically would undoubtably decimate her in more than one area if she got hit with that full force Critical 13. Treating the world as a JRPG anyways would basically be applying game mechanics to a non-video game form of media. But even then we don't include game mechanics, That'd be like including the fact Pokemon faint and disappear as a valid form of defense, showing that even if they run out of life points, they don't "die". And even with that said, Mera surviving that Critical 13 with Below Average Human level at the very least would leave her in permanent damage, not the same woman who, when she regained conciousness was able to walk fine and dandy and looked in better shape than Sylvester, who's bones were made brittle and he was unable to walk

 

[AdamGregory03]

I get that obviously Mera's fragile-ness is a clear weakness and makes her more susceptible to pain, but I think there's a lot of factors you're not thinking about just because of her handicap. If Mera's condition really was as bad as you're claiming it is, then realistically she wouldn't even be able to take a step without injuring herself, which we clearly see is not the case. She's still clearly capable of fighting and taking the blunt force of Beefton's attacks. There's also plenty of examples of characters that are still injured or incapacitated by an attack or force yet still have it applied to their durability on the basis that they're alvie afterwards. Like Squidly said, her having to go to the hospital after bumping into things could just be a hyperbole, especially since Giovanni did far more than that to her and she showed no sustained injuries when she was being arrested. It also doesn't make sense to me to compare her as an underdeveloped child to her as a more experienced adult. The stuff in your edit I also disagree with. I have absolutely no idea where you're getting any type of immortality from or anything similar to it, as nothing even remotely implies she has that. And while stamina can help you get back up after a fatal blow, I don't think that should be the only factor, because logically Mera's handicap would actually mean she has less stamina. So imo, I think it would be fine to upgrade Mera's durability, just give it the footnote that her Epithet makes her more susceptible to pain and injury, or just saying she has lower stamina because of it.

 

[Agnaa]

That still ignores the fact that even taking in the "Hard to kill" mentality, Mera literally being like a maximum of 39 joules physically would undoubtably decimate her in more than one area if she got hit with that full force Critical 13.

I don't think that's necessarily true :L

But even then we don't include game mechanics, That'd be like including the fact Pokemon faint and disappear as a valid form of defense, showing that even if they run out of life points, they don't "die".

Kinda fair? But my point wasn't that Mera can't die but that she can sustain a lot of damage just getting KO'd.

And even with that said, Mera surviving that Critical 13 with Below Average Human level at the very least would leave her in permanent damage, not the same woman who, when she regained conciousness was able to walk fine and dandy and looked in better shape than Sylvester, who's bones were made brittle and he was unable to walk

1. Mera was still able to fight with half her bones broke, she may be more used to dealing with this level of damage than Sylvester.

2. Sylvester didn't look to be in bad shape at all, he had a few minor scrapes and bruises on his model.

3. Sylvester was still able to walk as shown many times during the latter half of the episode. He was just getting carried out because he was going to the hospital while Mera was getting arrested.

If Mera's condition really was as bad as you're claiming it is, then realistically she wouldn't even be able to take a step without injuring herself, which we clearly see is not the case.

Where does this come from? What of anything I said requires this to be true? And to top it off, we do know that Mera injures herself absurdly easy, considering she broke a toe simply looking through some boxes.

There's also plenty of examples of characters that are still injured or incapacitated by an attack or force yet still have it applied to their durability on the basis that they're alvie afterwards.

Sure but, again, we're only at the low part of 9-B, real humans can be injured/incapacitated by 9-B attacks, but we don't give normal humans 9-B durability from that. We need to be a lot more careful when tiering for the low tiers.

Also also, that's great and all, but when we also know that they can be damaged by attacks that are far lower, that's where the durability should land.

Like Squidly said, her having to go to the hospital after bumping into things could just be a hyperbole

It could be, but like I said, there's half a dozen statements that are integral to her character that all point towards that not being hyperbole.

The stuff in your edit I also disagree with. I have absolutely no idea where you're getting any type of immortality from or anything similar to it, as nothing even remotely implies she has that.

Like I said, and I quote "Not actually but it's very similar". Type 2 immortality is just for characters that can withstand normally fatal blows and keep going.

because logically Mera's handicap would actually mean she has less stamina.

Why does it mean that? Her Epithet only reduces her durability, and stamina isn't durability. Her Epithet does damage her occasionally, draining her stamina quicker than other characters, but that doesn't mean her max stamina is reduced.

So imo, I think it would be fine to upgrade Mera's durability, just give it the footnote that her Epithet makes her more susceptible to pain and injury

If her Epithet makes her more susceptible to pain and injury, that means she has a low durability.

 

[SquiTwo]

If Mera's condition really was as bad as you're claiming it is, then realistically she wouldn't even be able to take a step without injuring herself, which we clearly see is not the case.
I said that because Mera's best Attack Potency feat for physicality according to the calculations is literally 27.9 joules at most, which, with her adult stature would be near impossible without actually hurting herself trying to exert herself.

I don't think that's necessarily true :L

You gave no evidence why such a thing would legit. You just said "i don't think so" when I'm telling you that someone with the durability of a small child would NOT AT ALL be able to survive a wall level attack, especially of that degree. Even something similar to Immortality 2 wouldn't save someone from that. Hard to kill doens't validate that. It's more likely Mera is fragile, but not as fragile as you believe. It's likely she's less durable than those of this verse but surviving an attack of that level even with a Pseudo-Immortality 2 doesn't make any sense why she still didn't suffer permanent, lasting damage of any kind.

 

[Agnaa]

If you've got a better AP feat for her I'd gladly apply it to the profiles, I just used the duck-kicking since it was the best I conceived of.

You gave no evidence why such a thing would legit. You just said "i don't think so" when I'm telling you that someone with the durability of a small child would NOT AT ALL be able to survive a wall level attack, especially of that degree.

I've been told otherwise, and to a certain extent perceived otherwise, when it's only in the early parts of wall level.

It's more likely Mera is fragile, but not as fragile as you believe.

Maybe she's less fragile than 10-C, I think I even said in my first reply here that she may be higher, but she's far below 9-A.

surviving an attack of that level even with a Pseudo-Immortality 2 doesn't make any sense why she still didn't suffer permanent, lasting damage of any kind.

She probably will have permanent lasting damage from it though?

 

[SquiTwo]

Maybe she's less fragile than 10-C, I think I even said in my first reply here that she may be higher, but she's far below 9-A.

She can still be in the same tier as characters of 9-A durability and AP. Being significantly weaker than a character doesn't always mean that they have a seperation in tiers. Especially when you're in still scalable from taking hits from people of 9-B to 9-A like Beefy boy.

She probably will have permanent lasting damage from it though?

No like, her legs shouldn't be functioning, Her body should've splattered all over that wall, if she has literally Below Average Human durability and she took a Wall level attack of that power.

I've been told otherwise, and to a certain extent perceived otherwise, when it's only in the early parts of wall level.

Told by who? I still don't see the logic behind that. And again, Even then, treating it like a JRPG is more like applying game mechanics as a way to justify taking damage that they realistically wouldn't survive

 

[Jinx666]

Honestly, both sides bring up great points

I'd put down that it Varies via the nature of her Epiphet.

 

[Agnaa]

True for the first part.

No like, her legs shouldn't be functioning, Her body should've splattered all over that wall, if she has literally Below Average Human durability and she took a Wall level attack of that power.

I don't think this is true :L

Told by who? I still don't see the logic behind that.

Wokista

And again, Even then, treating it like a JRPG is more like applying game mechanics as a way to justify taking damage that they realistically wouldn't survive

I think when WoG says that, and her having low durability is backed up by half a dozen statements in-verse, I think that's fine.

I'd put down that it Varies via the nature of her Epiphet.

I would have liked to but the issue with that is that it seems like her Epithet is always reducing her durability, so there's no real time when she's more tanky.

 

[Jinx666]

Her Epithet is only reducing while its being used im guessing, otherwise she'd be constantly raising in level until shes dead. There clearly is when at one point she goes to hospital for getting pushed, while the other she takes Giovanni's attack without death (something Wall level would definitely kill something Below human). But Mera has insanely high pain tolerance at this point that its hard to say her body cant take these attacks. Thats why i think Varies with explanation on the situation is the best course.

Her Epiphet isn't permanent effect either i dont think, otherwise Sylvie gonna live with fragile ribs for the rest of his life etc.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think her Epithet isn't permanent, but it seems to passively affect herself.

Why would she be unable to play outside? Couldn't she just stop using her Epithet? Why would she be taking painkillers constantly, couldn't she just stop using her Epithet? Why does her drive to end her pain manifest in her trying to steal other people's Epithets rather than just not using her own constantly?

It varying would be a hell of a lot easier to index, but I think all that stuff implies that it affecting herself is out of her control.

 

[AdamGregory03]

Alright, I'm just gonna go over the two main counter arguments here.

• Real humans survive wall level attacks all the time: But we're not talking about a real human, we're talking about a character you're trying to argue should be less durable than a real human, and failing to realize that these two arguments heavily contradict each other.
• But she's constantly in pain with her Epithet and dealing damage to herself: Izuku hurts himself when he overexerts his power but that doesn't affect his durability. Various Pokemon learn attacks that deal recoil damage to themselves and that doesn't affect their durability. Sans has a better dura ranking despite his status as "the weakest enemy" and literally having only one hit point to spare. True, none of these examples are 100% the same deal, but they're similar enough to where it feels like a double standard to accept one but not the other.

The other counter arguments aren't even worth addressing because they're either baseless or just based on assumption. I.E., "maybe she'll suffer permanent damage" or "maybe this is why she survived it".

 

[Agnaa]

@Adam

• Sure, but she's not far enough below the normal human for still surviving it to be impossible, imo.
• It's not about the pain, it's that the pain indicates that her durability is reduced. Izuku does not have a durability reduction power. Pokemon's moves are not durability reduction. Sans has nothing indicating he's below 9-A, being the weakest of a 9-A species does not mean you're below 9-A. None of those examples are even close.

The other counter arguments aren't even worth addressing because they're either baseless or just based on assumption. I.E., "maybe she'll suffer permanent damage"

Dude, this feels unfair. SquiTwo baselessly asserted that she wouldn't suffer permanent damage from Giovanni's attack. I was just saying that this possibility is still open since we haven't seen Mera again. Please don't treat this like a positive argument on my part.

 

[Wokistan]

Idk about the Indus thing, but I don't think her surviving Critical 13 works well for a durability feat. Epithet Erased isn't a very gory verse. Someone being one shot isn't necessarily going to be torn to pieces here, and the attack took her out of commission by itself. We don't really use characters getting 1 shot as durability feats, and even with characters who have durability from being badly injured by things like Khârn the Betrayer, it's in the context of a verse where someone who's body can't withstand such a blow is just gonna be destroyed. With Kharn's case, Angron splattered the other space marines entering his room instantly, but Kharn endured a lengthy beatdown which clearly is showing that he's durable. In Epithet Erased, everyone's going to be in a similar state as Mera when taken out, so it's not really a dura feat in that context.

 

[Jinx666]

Perhaps it was harder to control as a child, or it lasted for quite a while that is was unsafe for her to be outside without anyone. I coldn't possibly have the explanations, but i feel the inconsistency best warrants a Varies, especially given the even arguments

 

[Agnaa]

Perhaps it was harder to control as a child, or it lasted for quite a while that is was unsafe for her to be outside without anyone. I coldn't possibly have the explanations, but i feel the inconsistency best warrants a Varies, especially given the even arguments

Oh, I never considered it that way. This seems possibly viable, but I'm not sure how to write something like that into dura. "10-C, possibly varies, 10-C to 9-B"? But even that feels like it's stacking too many events that are merely "possible", and is prone to having more of those stacked on.

 

[AdamGregory03]

"Sure, but she's not far enough below the normal human for still surviving it to be impossible, imo."

Okay, which is it then?

Is her dura below average or can she survive the attacks?

It's like you're trying to argue both while more prominently siding with the former despite the latter outright contradicting that. Because even if it wasn't lower by that much, it would still result in her being in a lot worse condition than we see her in afterward if that is the case.

"SquiTwo baselessly asserted that she wouldn't suffer permanent damage from Giovanni's attack."

Because we don't see her suffering critical damage after Giovanni's attack. Which she brought up. If we didn't see that she was still alive afterwards, the it would be baseless. Saying "well maybe next time we see her she'll be permanently damaged" is baseless, however.

"Please don't treat this like a positive argument on my part."

It being a possibility is true, but you still brought that up as a point against SquiTwo's argument to try and counter it.

I do admit that the examples I listed are not good and it probably wasn't even worth going into. But I still think every other point we've made stands.

 

[Agnaa]

Okay, which is it then? Is her dura below average or can she survive the attacks?

I'm saying that both are possible in such low tiers :L

Because even if it wasn't lower by that much, it would still result in her being in a lot worse condition than we see her in afterward if that is the case.

Maybe? But it still took her out.

Because we don't see her suffering critical damage after Giovanni's attack. Which she brought up. If we didn't see that she was still alive afterwards, then it would be baseless. Saying "well maybe next time we see her she'll be permanently damaged" is baseless, however.

Permanent damage =/= death. Permanent damage =/= unable to walk (especially considering earlier she walked with half her bones broken). Permanent damage =/= critical damage. I took "permanent damage" to mean what permanent damage means - something which won't ever fully heal. And we can't know whether she'll eventually make a full recovery or not until we see her later.

I do admit that the examples I listed are not good and it probably wasn't even worth going into. But I still think every other point we've made stands.

And to clarify, I think that without half a dozen statements of her having low durability I'd be fine with those points. But I think that the evidence I've presented outweighs yours, even though your evidence is largely valid.