About Mind Hax Potency

[TheGatememer]

I kind of have an issue with how we treat potency for Mind hax, and other similar haxes. Why do we judge the potency of mind hax based on the number of people it has affected? Most of the time in fiction, its just a matter of whoever gets caught in whatever is used to mind hax, whether it be some kind of chant, or whatever (aka, whoever was caught in the aoe of the mind hax). It's not like the Mind hax will just no longer work once it has affected a certain number of minds. The way we currently treat it seems more like a range feat more than anything.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Do you have an idea to determine its potency then?

 

[SupremeNiva]

Agree, I find it weird that we jugde the potency of mind hax based on range instead of the effect the mind hax can do.

 

[VinnyXD]

Following. Kinda agree. But how would we judge strength? Maybe we could like other hax base on layers of resistance?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Mind, Body and soul form the 3 main fundamental aspects of a character's existance.....

So similarly to the way we treat physical AP and Dura... we also treat mind and soul kinda similarly.

Mind hax is Mental AP and Mind resistances is Mental Durability...

Soul Hax is Astral AP and Soul Resistance is Astral Durability...

There is both vertical and horizontal scaling encountered here...

Vertical Scaling means "Quality" of hax....determined by whether it can affect Higher D beings? Is it performed by Higher D beings? how many layers are involved? is any conceptual or abstarct stuff involved...all that jazz....

Horizontal scaling is purely "Quantity" based.....that is how many number of targets can you affect...basically counting.


But there are haxxes like Time Hax, Existance Erasure, Death Hax, matter hax etc....which aren't at all determined by "Quantity" but purely "Quality".....

 

[Planck69]

We decided on numbers since you'll rarely see a better measurement of potency. We only treat it as range when the work makes it clear to be as such (and even then it's potency as well).

Personally, I have no idea why people see numbers as range anyway.

 

[Garchomp777]

The size of the mind matters as wel

 

[Planck69]

No, it doesn't. Unless it's higher dimensional. Even if it's treated as being harder to mind-hax than usual, this is unquantifiable usually.

 

[Garchomp777]

No, it doesn't. Unless it's higher dimensional. Even if it's treated as being harder to mind-hax than usual, this is unquantifiable usually.

Its better than number

 

[Planck69]

That's completely baseless. Numbers are the most straightforward way of measuring potency.

Size doesn't even matter until someone points out that it's harder to mind-hax than a regular mind.

 

[Garchomp777]

That's completely baseless.

Why is number of minds quantifiable then

 

[Planck69]

Why is number of minds quantifiable then

Because a numeric gap is easy to compare. More numbers means better is simple and straightforward. Size is not only almost never compared with others, which makes it hard to say if it's superior but when it is, it's some vague amount of potency more than normal.

 

[Greenshifter]

My main problem is mind hax resistance. Pretty sure we currently give characters planetary mindhax resistance if they're unaffected during the event of someone mindhaxing everyone on a planet. Even though the mindhax of said character is already spread out due to being in the process of mindhaxing the planet. So someone could feasibly resist it with baseline mindhax resistance.

 

[Planck69]

That can be a bit nebulous, I'll admit.

 

[Garchomp777]

Because a numeric gap is easy to compare. More numbers means better is simple and straightforward. Size is not only almost never compared with others, which makes it hard to say if it's superior but when it is, it's some vague amount of potency more than normal.

Easy to compare doesn't mean its more quantifiable than size

 

[Slacjow]

My main problem is mind hax resistance. Pretty sure we currently give characters planetary mindhax resistance if they're unaffected during the event of someone mindhaxing everyone on a planet. Even though the mindhax of said character is already spread out due to being in the process of mindhaxing the planet. So someone could feasibly resist it with baseline mindhax resistance.

For such cases you look into context. You have to prove that said Planet Level Mind hax will affect a single person much better than billions at once.

 

[Planck69]

Easy to compare doesn't mean its more quantifiable than size

It is though? 10 people is 10 times more than one.

Galaxy-sized mind means nothing without feats and statements of degree of resistance. At best, context will just show >>1 mind.

 

[Garchomp777]

It is though? 10 people is 10 times more than one.

Galaxy-sized mind means nothing without feats and statements of degree of resistance. At best, context will just show >>1 mind.

Why will it mean nothing without feats? 10 minds of random people without more information also doesn't have feats

 

[Purgy]

Slightly unrelated to the OP and didn't want to make a separate thread since it's pretty simple, but would we treat mind haxxing a single character with multiple minds the same as mind haxxing multiple characters who only have a single mind each?

 

[Greenshifter]

but would we treat mind haxxing a single character with multiple minds the same as mind haxxing multiple characters who only have a single mind each?

Pretty sure we do, like if they're truly different minds rather than parts of the same big mind.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

My main problem is mind hax resistance. Pretty sure we currently give characters planetary mindhax resistance if they're unaffected during the event of someone mindhaxing everyone on a planet. Even though the mindhax of said character is already spread out due to being in the process of mindhaxing the planet. So someone could feasibly resist it with baseline mindhax resistance.

But say for example the person doing this mind hax via psychokinetic aura or whatever decides to concentrate all his efforts on a single opponent then that opponent is pretty much screwed....but if a character survives this then he has planetary mind resistance.

And such instances usually happen in fiction.....one moment a big bad guy is mind haxxing a universe and then next moment he tries to mindhax the protagonist but the protagonist shrugs it off...then the protagonist pretty much have universal mind hax resistance.

 

[Greenshifter]

whatever decides to concentrate all his efforts

At that moment he'd probably let go off the mindhax of the entire planet/universe, thus that'd be valid. That's exactly my point really, we also assume people have planetary mindhax resistance when this doesn't happen.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

The size of the mind matters as wel

Well there is a difference between measuring distance between a range and counting elements ...
Lemme explain....
When you consider number of people , then you know each person has a distinct consciousness and egos....and being able juggle multiple of them is pretty impressive...there is a complexity involved here.

While size of brain is just....well size of the biology....not necessarily the complexity of the intelligence......but nature shows us the intelligence has somewhat relation with size of brain( more like complexity) since rats are more intelligent than insect, but dog is more intellgent than rat, and we humans are the most intelligent species on Earth.....but it has more to do with complexity of our intelligence...which is somewhat dictated by biology and evolution.

So I can see some merit in your logic....but still boils down to complexity.

But of course this doesn't work if you enlarge the size of a rat to galaxy and claim that since the rat has that much bigger brain then it also has that kind of intelligence.....thats non-sensical

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

At that moment he'd probably let go off the mindhax of the entire planet/universe, thus that'd be valid. That's exactly my point really, we also assume people have planetary mindhax resistance when this doesn't happen.

Well then thats for the verse to decide ....if supporters claim such things....then the opposers have to correct them.....

 

[TheGatememer]

Do you have an idea to determine its potency then?

Yea, just judge it based on how many layers of resistances it bypasses.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Sticking only with Higher-D feats and/or layers of resistance would be better than numbers imo.

 

[TheGatememer]

We decided on numbers since you'll rarely see a better measurement of potency. We only treat it as range when the work makes it clear to be as such (and even then it's potency as well).

Personally, I have no idea why people see numbers as range anyway.

Why would the range have any relation to potency at all? The number of people affected really doesn't have any relation to the actual strength of the mind hax, since the people being affected usually have no resistance to mind hax. In that way, It's technically baseline mind hax, but the aoe was just large enough to affect said number of people. Like I said, it's not like the mind hax will just stop working on people that it has affected once it reaches a certain number of minds.

 

[First_Witch]

The reason why we use numbers is because its logical and universally applieable.

Poisons for example are measured in potency by how many people it can kill per mililiter, a more potent poison can kill more people with the same amount as a inferior poison, the same can be applied to mind (and by extension soul hax).

Imagine it like this: Your mind hax is like water and your target minds are like glases. The stronger your mind hax, the more water you have. If you have a high degree of hax potency you will have no problem filling up tons of glases.

But i do remember that some standards were decided on to filter out pure range feats from potency feats. Namely the feat needs to happen directly by a power (no range amplifier) and some form of effort needs to be exerted, but i'm hazy on the details.

 

[KingTempest]

My main problem is mind hax resistance. Pretty sure we currently give characters planetary mindhax resistance if they're unaffected during the event of someone mindhaxing everyone on a planet. Even though the mindhax of said character is already spread out due to being in the process of mindhaxing the planet. So someone could feasibly resist it with baseline mindhax resistance.

This is a serious issue that I've seen and that (I wouldn't lie) I've taken part of.

This is essentially the same exact thing as scaling someone to the full yield of an attack for taking an incredibly small portion of the attack.

 

[Antoniofer]

Actually, I think poison's "potency" is measured by LD50 (or maybe this is what you tried to say and I simply didn't understand well); either way, I wouldn't compare poisons to mental manipulation.

As I've say before, I rather evaluate mental hax based in quality over quantity, that basically means the amount of resistance layers it can surpass. Mind haxing hundreds of humans is not really notable where they do not really have a chance to resist any kind a mental manipulation.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I've been thinking about this a lot recently too.

WHY is numbers quantifiable? Why is mind haxing 3 people inherently stronger other than "we have no other realistic way to determine it"?

Why is a mind hax suddenly more potent because I used it on 3 people instead of 1? All you need is the potency to control one person's mind, and the AOE to affect others. There's nothing inherently more potent about it.

 

[Elizhaa]

From the Mind Manipulation:

• Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Mind Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations.
• When judging the potency of Mind Manipulation, and the resistance against it, there is a variety of factors to be considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the Mind Manipulation can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc.

I don't think we judged potency solely on numbers but on a case by case by numbers and other factors. Though, probably a CRT could be made to remove the paragraph from the first bullet point above if it causes confusion.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I'd be ok with that. We shouldn't assume that because it mindhaxed 3 people over 1 person means it's somehow more potent.

I have the same issue with soul hax, honestly. There might be a difference there that makes it understandable, but for now I'm not seeing any good justification for it either.

 

[Axxtentacle]

The reason why we use numbers is because its logical and universally applieable.

...eh? That's what's being brought to question here though, so yeah.

Poisons for example are measured in potency by how many people it can kill per mililiter, a more potent poison can kill more people with the same amount as a inferior poison, the same can be applied to mind (and by extension soul hax).

Yeah, but once it can fully kill 1 person with a drop, that drop isn't more potent because I gave a drop to 5 individual people.

Imagine it like this: Your mind hax is like water and your target minds are like glases. The stronger your mind hax, the more water you have. If you have a high degree of hax potency you will have no problem filling up tons of glases.

I can kinda see where this is coming from, but also not. I can see why this makes sense, but I feel like it really doesn't apply to minds.

Minds are well, minds. If you're just controlling one, then badabing badaboom badabam you've controlled 1 mind. You don't suddenly have a mindhax that will be stronger against 1 person just because you can mind control multiple people. You're not using a portion of your potency to, you're just taking 1 set level of potency and spreading it out. I feel like this comes down to a case-by-case basis, and shouldn't be the base assumption.

But i do remember that some standards were decided on to filter out pure range feats from potency feats. Namely the feat needs to happen directly by a power (no range amplifier) and some form of effort needs to be exerted, but i'm hazy on the details.

That should definitely be portrayed somehow and somewhere then honestly.

 

[InfiniteDay]

If poison can kill more in a single dosage then another, it is stronger. As such, mind haxing 2+ would take far more strain that mind haxing a single individual. Saying that since the mind hax is technically only hax one mind per person that a planetary mind hax can be resisted by a single mind is absolutely absurd. Think of it like the leap between Low 2-C and baseline 2-C. You have to factor in the unknown amount of space between 1 and 2, leading to 2 being unquantifiable superior to 1. This is about the same for mind-hax. And yes, we do take Resistance Negation into account, along with the variable effects, its just that is doesn't show most of the time.

Tl;dr: In my opinion, the jump from One mind to Two minds minhaxed is like the jump from Low 2-C and Baseline 2-C, unquantifiable superior.

 

[TheGatememer]

The reason why we use numbers is because its logical and universally applieable.

Poisons for example are measured in potency by how many people it can kill per mililiter, a more potent poison can kill more people with the same amount as a inferior poison, the same can be applied to mind (and by extension soul hax).

Imagine it like this: Your mind hax is like water and your target minds are like glases. The stronger your mind hax, the more water you have. If you have a high degree of hax potency you will have no problem filling up tons of glases.

But i do remember that some standards were decided on to filter out pure range feats from potency feats. Namely the feat needs to happen directly by a power (no range amplifier) and some form of effort needs to be exerted, but i'm hazy on the details.

While I kind of get what you are getting at, I feel that this is a bit of a false equivalency, as Mind Hax often doesn't work like something physical like poison. It doesn't usually get weaker the more people it affects, its a question on how many people are within the affected area. Especially if it comes from something like, lets say some kind of sound or whatever. And one could argue that as long as you have enough of a certain poison, you could theoretically kill anyone that doesn't have a resistance to it

 

[Axxtentacle]

If poison can kill more in a single dosage then another, it is stronger. As such, mind haxing 2+ would take far more strain that mind haxing a single individual. Saying that since the mind hax is technically only hax one mind per person that a planetary mind hax can be resisted by a single mind is absolutely absurd. Think of it like the leap between Low 2-C and baseline 2-C. You have to factor in the unknown amount of space between 1 and 2, leading to 2 being unquantifiable superior to 1. This is about the same for mind-hax. And yes, we do take Resistance Negation into account, along with the variable effects, its just that is doesn't show most of the time.

Well yeah, it can kill 2 people with the same dosage, sure. But what if 1 dosage kills 1 person and you just give that dosage to 10000 people?

Tl;dr: In my opinion, the jump from One mind to Two minds minhaxed is like the jump from Low 2-C and Baseline 2-C, unquantifiable superior.

Eh. Idk. Weirdness.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Well yeah, it can kill 2 people with the same dosage, sure. But what if 1 dosage kills 1 person and you just give that dosage to 10000 people?

Didn't you not like the idea of comparing it to a poison? And yes, it can. But this is an unquantifiable jump from one mind to two, two to three, three to four, etc. Like I said, it's like Low 2-C to Baseline 2-C, it may be just one universe to one, but what about the space between those. Range matters in Low 2-C to 2-C, just like it does here.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I'm comparing it anyway because of the "dosage" thing, which already assumes that it's more powerful as a default, which just shouldn't be the assumption. It's a verse-specific thing.

 

[InfiniteDay]

I'm comparing it anyway because of the "dosage" thing, which already assumes that it's more powerful as a default, which just shouldn't be the assumption. It's a verse-specific thing.

The mind hax is not more powerful, but it is more potent. There is a difference here. Also, do you not have a direct refute?