About Smash Bros Lifting Strength

[SamanPatou]

Why do all Smash Bros characters scale to DDD's Class M feat?
There's no a real reason to them to be comparable to him in such stat outside of sheer game mechanics involving throws.

We even have contradictions with pseudo canon-material such as Snake stating that he wouldn't even be able to lift DDD's hammer.
Also, we have the Ike codec call where Snake is surprised by his ability to swing around the Ragnell, further pointing out to them not beijg comparable.

As of now I don't remember any detail of the Subspace Emissary cutscenes or Palutena'a guidances, but if we were to find some form of scaling, it would still scale only to those who match DDD in strength, not every single character with comparable AP.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

SSB profiles are weird on the wiki, although to be fair, a lot of it comes from the canon being... questionable.

I could swear there was a revision ongoing precisely because of that, but I must be mistaken.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

SSB profiles are weird on the wiki, although to be fair, a lot of it comes from the canon being... questionable.

I could swear there was a revision ongoing precisely because of that, but I must be mistaken.

The profiles are a travesty, they are missing half of the P&A and the profiles are so barebones.

Working on a revision for Smash but it's a lot of boring Copy and Paste, I just need to finish up all of the links for the items and stuff

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Pretty sure it's against our kinetic energy standards + It's only lifting strength if there's little momentum involved; it's just striking strength at best.

 

[SamanPatou]

This goes deeper than I thought.

I guess further evaluations of the calc itself are in order?

 

[Armorchompy]

SSB calculations are generally wrong IMO, they all compare speed to Pikachu's lightning, now nevermind that Pichu, Sora and Hero's similar attacks and the Lightning item have all different speeds in game, which makes the whole thing very inconsistent, and that projectile speed in a fighting game is going to always be subject to balance over accuracy, I also don't agree with comparing the speed of two unrelated things in gameplay, if a character blocks or reflects a projectile, that can be scaled, but just a generic attack being compared to an unrelated projectile, not so much in my opinion. So yes, calculation as a whole should definitely not be used.

Also, we have the Ike codec call where Snake is surprised by his ability to swing around the Ragnell, further pointing out to them not beijg comparable.

I should say however, I don't think this is an anti-feat for SSB Snake, any character in SSB can have superhuman LS just by carrying and throwing heavy items or enemies or even just jumping high up, I think this can be discounted more as Snake being preoccupied about the inertia or lack of dexterity which one would normally have when swinging that heavy of a weapon, which also makes more sense generally.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I should say however, I don't think this is an anti-feat for SSB Snake, any character in SSB can have superhuman LS just by carrying and throwing heavy items or enemies or even just jumping high up, I think this can be discounted more as Snake being preoccupied about the inertia or lack of dexterity which one would normally have when swinging that heavy of a weapon, which also makes more sense generally.

At worst, that's loosely an anti-feat for canon Snake who may be oblivious to his power level shifting in Smash.

But I agree above; this is TF2 scaling assuming Hammer Units/second is 100% linear to get Mach 5 scissor throws again; and they'd have Infinite speed bullets by that same logic. Either assume everything is real time (Which would downplay everything) or just not compare two unrelated projectiles at all. But I'd stick to the latter. Characters reacting/reflecting specific projectiles such as lightning bolts are fine to be treated as MHS+ reaction speed feat, but don't assume everything moves that fast let alone violate KE rules.

 

[SamanPatou]

Afaik there aren't many notable LS feats, let alone ones that could reliably scale to characters for whom we have profiles.

I guess the safest replacement would be a generic Superhuman out of them lifting large objects and tossing around big opponents?

 

[Armorchompy]

Afaik there aren't many notable LS feats, let alone ones that could reliably scale to characters for whom we have profiles.

I guess the safest replacement would be a generic Superhuman out of them lifting large objects and tossing around big opponents?

King Dedede and Kirby can probably get class 100 via being capable of inhaling a Kirby using stone, which has a form that sayd "100t". Although I'm not 100% sure if it works like that gameplay wise

 

[SamanPatou]

Neither of them has a profile nor scales to anyone else (save maybe for the bosses), besides the fact that I'm unsure if their inhaling can really scale to physicals.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

100t would be baseline Class K.

And I can see it scaling to some characters but not all. Master Hand and Crazy Hand for sure; maybe Kirby, Dedede, Wario via their mouths. Kazuya can suplex it; but not sure of the Counter attack that the FE characters counts; in Shulk and Palutena's case seems counter is just them dodging and then striking rather than just reflecting the attack.

 

[SamanPatou]

Wario because of the altered move in Smash 4 which allows him to suck the opponents, right? For everything else, what are you referring to? Because Kirby always returns to normal when an attack bypasses his stone form.

 

[Armorchompy]

Normally when kirby gets grabbed he just leaves the stone form, maybe there's some gameplay mechanic that allows a character to push him?

 

[Chariot190]

At worst, that's loosely an anti-feat for canon Snake who may be oblivious to his power level shifting in Smash.

Yare yare.

he wouldn't even be able to lift DDD's hammer.

He doesn't say that though? He's just like huh wtf.

Though scaling everyone to DDD is a bit suspect. For a baseline why not just calc some basic items like boxes and crates everyone can pick up and toss first? From there, there's definitely some decent LS feats from other lads like Ganon, though I'm unsure if scaling Ganon or Bowser to everyone is any better, if not worse.

 

[SamanPatou]

He doesn't say that though? He's just like huh wtf.

He does, go to 0:35

Though scaling everyone to DDD is a bit suspect. For a baseline why not just calc some basic items like boxes and crates everyone can pick up and toss first? From there, there's definitely some decent LS feats from other lads like Ganon, though I'm unsure if scaling Ganon or Bowser to everyone is any better, if not worse.

The problem is that the crates can contain any object and up to three to four of them iirc, while party balls even more (like, 7 hammers) and of course you can know their weight.
Anyway, scaling to powerhouses should be done for actual reasons, not just AP comparisons.

 

[Chariot190]

He does, go to 0:35

"Think".
Snake is notoriously dumb as shit please understand, he only has a 180IQ

The problem is that the crates can contain any object and up to three to four of them iirc, while party balls even more (like, 7 hammers) and of course you can know their weight.

Not really a problem, if they can do it, they can do it, it's not exactly a one off thing, it's something that's a consistent reoccurring thing they do.
Just calc the crates themselves instead of hyper inflating it I guess by setting it so only the most heavy item spawns.
Just treat each item as stand alone, like yeah obviously them lifting a box that has ten big ass swords but then struggle to lift just the sword is a huge red flag, just treat them separately.

 

[Pikaman]

While we are talking Smash Bros a crazy amount of profiles need reworking or quite frankly deletion and redoing

Giga Bowser has no AP justifications and has iffy speed justifications as they scale to Smash Bros Base Bowser who has no profile

Tabuu needs to link to Master Hand’s profile for speed scaling, minor fix

Delete Sandbag. 99% sure this is not a character, and it’s very iffy to class it as a weapon, even if you accept it qualifies for a profile it’s statistics are unfounded, since when did you get Human Level for simply being able to pick yourself up from the ground? Also can not remember a single instance Sandbag has moved, never mind at the speed of the fighters, so speed scaling is poor too.

Delete Shadow Bugs. Bugger all justifications and I’m pretty sure they shouldn’t scale to the other fighters, also been a while since I played subspace but if they’re whole thing is transforming into other characters shouldn’t their rating be varies?

Serious reworks/deletion needed for Primids. Scaling is unfounded (I’m like 99% sure there has never been an altercation between a Primid and the enemy it’s speed scales to) and the second key does not have AP justifications where there needs to be. Also some species such as the metal primid would have different stats such as the Metal Primid having potentially higher durability, which is not represented (I might be incorrect on the last point here, I’m not 100% sure if metal increases durability in Smash Bros but I think it does, apologies if so, but the other points still stand.)

Lacks LS justifications, needs to scale to a character that actually has a profile.

Like 0 justifications, needs heavy reworks/deletion, although I do think the scaling works, it just isn’t explained who the scaling is to and why it works, so reworks defo needed.

Icies should scale to Falcon

AP justifications needed

4th Key has a few issues with scaling, mainly the fact it scales to Kirby, which doesn’t exist anymore, and Primids, who need serious reworks and themselves are much weaker than the fighters

Also, the speed scaling itself is absolutely bogus, but that’s a post for later

 

[Chariot190]

The AP in general is ******* dumb actually but that's for another thread entirely. (Should still be tier 7, just not for that).

Save AP, and other stuff for a different thread, in fact go make one now if ya want, but this is for LS only.

 

[Pikaman]

Giga Bowser has no AP justifications and has iffy speed justifications as they scale to Smash Bros Base Bowser who has no profile

^ Also in this, the AP is listed as higher with the Giga Bowser Punch, which is just…. a regular punch. It’s only treated as a mega move (final smash) for NORMAL Bowser, which Giga Bowser scales far above already.

 

[Pikaman]

The AP in general is ******* dumb actually but that's for another thread entirely. (Should still be tier 7, just not for that).

Save AP, and other stuff for a different thread, in fact go make one now if ya want, but this is for LS only.

Yeah fair enough, I’ll move all of this to a new thread soon, and discuss speed scaling too

 

[Armorchompy]

Delete Sandbag. 99% sure this is not a character, and it’s very iffy to class it as a weapon, even if you accept it qualifies for a profile it’s statistics are unfounded, since when did you get Human Level for simply being able to pick yourself up from the ground? Also can not remember a single instance Sandbag has moved, never mind at the speed of the fighters, so speed scaling is poor too.

Sandbag is sentient, some loading screen blurbs say so.

Anyway, I should mention LS isn't the only thing we need a replacement for, we'd need to get new AP feats since that's currently dependent on KE stacking too.

 

[Chariot190]

Link it when ya do, I was looking at smash calcs earlier today oddly enough. Some extremely suspect shit but I think there's other stuff that can save them still.

 

[Pikaman]

Sandbag is sentient, some loading screen blurbs say so.

Yeah but… that doesn’t mean it needs a profile. It’s an immobile character that doesn’t fight, it exists purely as a punching bag for other fighters, and it’s justifications for stats are bogus all around as well

I’ll move this to another thread now gimme a sec

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah but he's based so it's ok

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah but… that doesn’t mean it needs a profile. It’s an immobile character that doesn’t fight, it exists purely as a punching bag for other fighters, and it’s justifications for stats are bogus all around as well

I mean, profile's bad but like, "needing a profile" is a pretty sus notion, we don't have a notability rule or something

 

[Pikaman]

I mean, profile's bad but like, "needing a profile" is a pretty sus notion, we don't have a notability rule or something

Yeah but… what is there to document exactly? He’s a barely inanimate object with no precedent in combat or any power showings at all

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah but… what is there to document exactly? He’s a barely inanimate object with no precedent in combat or any power showings at all

Tier 7 durability, mostly. It's goofy and definitely a joke profile but like, it's not any less notable than "dude with gun"

 

[Pikaman]

Tier 7 durability, mostly. It's goofy and definitely a joke profile but like, it's not any less notable than "dude with gun"

Then I guess if people are willing to revise the stats there there’s no issue with Sandbag staying imo, thanks for clearing that up

also my thread is up

 

[SamanPatou]

I appreciate the endeavor, really.
And so, while the other thread goes on, what are we going to do here? Calc a minimum amount of weight for empty crates (considering there are wood, metal and "gift" ones), then put a likely higher for the chance of them having items? Or do the same calc, but sticking with large stuff like hammers?

 

[Arceus0x]

profiles should be like 5-A cause they can survive Sephiroth's final smash

 

[Pikaman]

profiles should be like 5-A cause they can survive Sephiroth's final smash

I mean, what’s the situation, Sephiroph tosses them onto a different planet that happens to look like Earth? Literally nothing else is damaged

 

[Chariot190]

Tbh I wouldn't scale any of them to sephiroth.

He's ******* jacked.

Also, in FF canon Sephiroth like teleports your ass to a different dimension to do it, and when it ends you get dropped back on normal earth. can't exactly say smash canon is the same as FF canon tho..

 

[SamanPatou]

Let's keep this thread about LS, please, there's another one to discuss everything else.

 

[SamanPatou]

After a brief discussion, it came out the fact that using the crates could be tricky.

This because items are sort of gameplay stuff, and the same gameplay allows you to grap and throw even someone like metal giant sized KKR, so the characters lifting strength could either be incredibly high using gameplay, or not at all if we discard these things as game mechanics, so.... let's discuss

 

[Chariot190]

I'm not so sure what you expect, we're talking about a video game, a video game that is 99% gameplay, besides subspace and a few easter eggs, there isn't any actual story or cutscene feats where feats can be obtained, especially as 5 out of 6 games all but forego cutscenes for almost pure gameplay.
We're gonna be forced to use gameplay feats, otherwise 99% of stats for them are just gonna be a flat unknown, LS being the least of our concerns.
Besides, gameplay feats aren't even inherently bad, they only become an issue when they're consistently at odds with other canonical superseding information.

Though that's actually a good point, they can throw each other, and it's a critical, crucial, part of the game.
We could probably do some calcs of that as well as the boxes and shit, they're there, they can toss them, ergo they can unless we have really, really, good reason to think otherwise.

And I can't speak for anyone else but I'm more willing to discredit the secret codec over a critical key part of the games that's universally applied in every single one, especially as the codec isn't even a solid anti-feat, it's not like he says he can't, just that he isn't sure if he could, possibility still exists, and given them lifting boxes and what not is a feat that actually takes effort (it isn't something they do casually that's for sure), I don't see much reason to say Snake saying he doesn't know if he could lift the high tech hammer that means anything , if the codec is even canon at that, it could just be a neat easter egg.

The Ike one on the other hand I wouldn't pay it any mind, if Snake is meant to be acting like how he usually does, then Snake in his own canon has pointed out the capabilities of other dudes in surprise before, while also outclassing them in said capability, he just gives credit where credit is due because it's not every day you fight a sniper who can wait weeks and hit a mark from 800m away in a blizzard or a wacky bi-sexual vampire or yourself but blonde and shirtless.

tldr, gameplay feats fine, it's smash. The only real condition I'd slap on it is if the circumstances of it is possible in Subspace/WoL, if the feat can be replicated in those it should be fine to take at face value (As in no hyper specific match settings that is normally impossible to find in single player).
While we're at it, has anyone looked through the WoL matches? I'm sure there's bound to be some special matches that set the stage for some potentially decent LS feats or other such things. (Actually would items even be gameplay? Some of the WoL matches has items being wielded built in by default, and needless to say, doing all the WoL matches is the canonical ending).

 

[Armorchompy]

For the record, I wasn't actually inherently opposed to at least throwing people with a giant mushroom or a metal box active, both might be sus but I'm sure there's some combat scenario that sets this up by default.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Chariot has a valid point, SSB has very little to no story in general, and basing the profiles exclusively on the lore of a few things seems sort of counterintuitive. It is a very lore-light game and is mostly based around the gameplay almost exclusively.