Acceleration

[Zefra3011]

Hi. The plan is to clarify how we treat acceleration on this site. Based on my experience, I've seen that we don't have standards, and it leads to some inconsistencies, mainly for calc evaluations.

I'll link some calcs I made. I don't care about their evaluations; I'm just using them to present inconsistencies between the calc group members' opinions on the matter, which happen because we don't have standards for these things.

Here, the opinion is "an attack reaches full speed only when it completes the movement." Here I found the same opinion. This basically also implies that attacks constantly accelerate and only reach top speed at the end of the movement.

Here I found the opposite opinion. "We need proof to say the attack maintained the acceleration for the entirety of the distance."

Here, here, and here, acceleration wasn't even considered, knowingly or not, even though they are similar situations to the above examples.

These examples talk about the acceleration for the "projectile." But if we do consider it, should we also somehow consider it for the character performing the feat? We never make the calculation accounting for the character to move at different speeds. We usually say "He dodged a bullet, so he moved at supersonic," and the profile reflects that, not an average speed or a top speed, just "supersonic". Yet, wouldn't considering it for the projectile and not for the character be weird? The scene and the verse are the same. "The character doesn't accelerate conventionally, but the 'projectile' does."

We also never consider deceleration. We always assume bullets, arrows, and similar projectiles are always moving at top speed, yet they should constantly decelerate as they move forward. If we don't consider it for these projectiles, why do we consider acceleration for others like punches?

I believe we need to find some consistency, or decide whether to ignore it. If we decide to account for it, why for something, yes, but not for something else, no? Just to make sure it's not treated differently, especially between CGMs.

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Mr. Bambu @M3X_2.0 @Dalesean027 @DMUA @Therefir @Psychomaster35 @TheRustyOne @Flashlight237 @SeijiSetto @Floxy178

 

[DontTalkDT]

Acceleration, positive or negative, is considered when it seems relevant. This is also a question for the type of attack, as the forces that act upon them are obviously different and so is whether an amount of force is relevant to the attack as a whole given its magnitude.
Combat speed generally refers to speed reached over a battle relevant time/distance. Long acceleration periods would be travel speed. We don't list anything more specific on acceleration.

 

[Zefra3011]

Acceleration, positive or negative, is considered when it seems relevant. This is also a question for the type of attack, as the forces that act upon them are obviously different
Combat speed generally refers to speed reached over a battle relevant time/distance. Long acceleration periods would be travel speed. We don't list anything more specific on acceleration.

That's fair. But in the first examples I provided (a 'projectile' moving a short distance) some cgms consider it at top speed, some don't, and say it couldn't reach it, and it's geniuely the same scenario in all feats. That's my main concern.

For the bullets' point, we never considered it, but with enough distance, a bullet slows down (like from 300 m/s to 250 m/s), and thus hypotetically reducing the result. That's not relevant?

 

[Floxy178]

Well we just go with lowball for each scenario I believe. When calculating speed or KE we take average speed but if the calc involves acceleration we assume constant acceleration.

Even tho these don't coexist, I think it's a good way to prevent inflation. Because mostly you won't have constant acceleration and may reach top speed way before finishing movement. For example if you assumed constant acceleration without any further reason here, you'd inflate speed and KE rating.

 

[Zefra3011]

Well we just go with lowball for each scenario I believe. When calculating speed or KE we take average speed but if the calc involves acceleration we assume constant acceleration.

Even tho these don't coexist, I think it's a good way to prevent inflation. Because mostly you won't have constant acceleration and may reach top speed way before finishing movement. For example if you assumed constant acceleration without any further reason here, you'd inflate speed and KE rating.

If we go for the lowball, what about these examples I gave:

- a punch (the 'projectile' to be blocked/dodged to calc someone's else speed) moved only few centimeters, so the speed we use for it shouldn't be the top speed it can reach, since it might be reached at the end of the movement and not that soon.

- a bullet that travels 10 meters before reaching the character who dodges it. We should account for the bullet to decelerate within that distance? So we should find a way to calc that speed, rather than using the muzzle velocity of the bullet.

 

[KLOL506]

- a bullet that travels 10 meters before reaching the character who dodges it. We should account for the bullet to decelerate within that distance? So we should find a way to calc that speed, rather than using the muzzle velocity of the bullet.

About that...

Bullets IRL don't experience velocity drop until they're like, several hundreds of meters down range, and even then it varies per bullet (Certain ammunition can hold their speed over long distances very, very well). And even then you'd have to use the velocity at that specific range and still use bullet-to-target distance (And we actually do have IRL documented bullet velocity charts at specific distances, and that's what we should use, we shouldn't try to calculate them ourselves because it'd get hilariously wrong results - we are not a lab nor an ammunitions manufacturer with ample testing gear and humongous budgets to blow holes through our bank accounts).

But over a meagre 5-10 meters? Where most of our feats happen? That's melee range. Drop in velocity would be outright minimal, if not outright non-existent. The bullet-to-target argument would also stand here in this case.

 

[KLOL506]

All in all, just stick with muzzle velocity for these close-quarters dodging feats and stick to end of gun barrel-to-target distance for extremely-close-range dodging feats.

Bullet-to-target instances are very rare anyway, it's for when we don't know the target's distance from the muzzle but we know they are within reasonable CQC range.

 

[Poiesis_Element]

Quick aside, not sure if this should also be added to the discussion, but are there standards for acceleration regarding lifting strength, specifically in regards to throwing objects or stopping objects from moving? Because, you know, force = mass × acceleration

 

[Floxy178]

- a punch (the 'projectile' to be blocked/dodged to calc someone's else speed) moved only few centimeters, so the speed we use for it shouldn't be the top speed it can reach, since it might be reached at the end of the movement and not that soon.

For punch you just won't use top speed. However in projectile scenario you'll most likely use it since it won't accelerate midway.

For the bullet stuff, pretty much what KLOL said.