Adding some abilities (Instant Death)

[Ihsjihahxu]

Acausality Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality are completely independent of cause and effect, existing outside causality. Characters of this nature require evidence of being unable to be changed by any effect that relies on a system of causality, meaning that interacting with them normally is impossible.

As we know, characters that Transcend Causality cannot be changed by anything that exists within the system of cause and effect.

The End is something that Transcend the convergence of any fate — it is something that contains nothing.
The place UEG discovered was an infinite, ever-expanding darkness and nothingness that permits nothing to exist. Neither creation nor destruction changes it in any way.

The Celestial Foundation Eater reverses time and alters the causes of effects it has received — yet what has already been determined remains unchanged even after its causes and effects have been altered, because it Transcends Cause and Effect.

Now returning to UEG — we know that the gods killing the concepts of a person and battle simply means they are squeezing out power and strength to fight one another, nothing more.

Alright, back to the main chapter. UEG brought forth every ounce of power she possessed to destroy this void and irrationality. Yet this act of destruction produced no effect or change
whatsoever. The Nothingness was not altered and remained as empty as ever.
So why does this matter? We know that UEG is one of the three goddesses of the Ultimate Ensemble World. She possesses the greatest freedom among all the deities (excluding the other two and UG).

The people of the celestial sea also possess various abilities. As stated: resistance to instant death was a given in battles that occurred in the celestial sea. Instant death. Reflection. Time stop. Time reversal. Spatial severance. Total erasure. Conceptual attacks. Causality erasure. Such things were possible for virtually anyone in the sea, so the leaders of the pirates were more than capable of neutralizing them.

These abilities are not limited to pirates alone — the gods too possess these same capabilities.

When we connect this to what UEG did within the void, she attempted to use all of her power — including every ability mentioned above, all of which operate within the system of cause and effect — to destroy that Nothingness. Yet those powers produced no effect or change whatsoever, vanishing into the void. I believe everyone shares the same question I do: if that place is devoid of cause and effect, or exists outside the causal system entirely, then why did those powers function at all? Honestly, I don't know.

UEG also attempted to create things in order to bring change to that place — but to no avail. Whatever worlds or constructs UEG tried to bring into existence proved completely futile. The void underwent no change whatsoever in response to the power of the gods who exist beneath the causal system of the Ensemble World.

There are many things that don't make sense in what I'm saying, like using power under a system of cause and effect in a place where cause and effect doesn't exist. It's just strange.

Idk, This is all I can do.

What about it being a Type 1 concept in abstract existence?

Idk

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

And also, for the last time, these are not the author's questions and answers. These are the characters themselves speaking.

That space is not inherently connected to Canon, and is just used to interact with fan via Q&A. Those are just Q&A session, you can see the question asked by a fan with username written in almost every volume at the end.

Btw this particular pic is from vol 11 bonus short story. you seriously want me to take this as canon? Like com on.

 

[sukuna171]

The only thing here I agree with is BDE type 1; everything else is a definite no for me.

 

[Mbpoops]

Remember to remove phoneks and add twilight as disagree

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Well, now that I have time to look at the thread, here's my two cents:

The Ultimate Ensemble is the world that contains all possible worlds; it contains everything without exception.

This is by extension of its nature limited to the cosmology, which is 1-C.

Its true form is the beginning and the end of everything. It is the end of all things, and the only one that will remain in the end because it is the end itself and the ultimate destination of all fates. There is nothing beyond it. Its darkness is a void of nothingness, a representation of the end of everything, where nothing remains and nothing is allowed to exist here.

Sure.

The argument for BDE 1 and Type 1 concept is the same as the arguments for NEP 1 in the previous topic; however, I will only explain the justification here.

Keep in mind for concept type 1, it has to be independent of the cosmology, not just exist alongside it. And for the BD1 you need to lack space-time in specific.

As we said, its true form is the end of everything, and when I say the end of everything, I mean the Ultimate Set. The Ultimate Set contains everything without exception, and its darkness is a void of nothingness representing the end, where nothing exists here and nothing is allowed to exist here. This is where everything has ended and returned to it, because it is the final destination of all things. Since everything ends here, it is a Type 1 concept because it is not bound to the world but independent from it, as the entire world has ended and nothing remains. Therefore, it is an independent concept from the entire world.

This doesn't exactly prove independence tho? All it shows is that parallel worlds and dimensions don't exist there. Sure, but that is not even close to the scope The "End" governs (the end governs the entire ultimate ensemble, yet the scans here only talk about universes and dimensions not existing here).
Also, where are you even getting the idea that yogiri is a concept? The current justification from the profile is this:

• Abstract Existence (Type 1. Exists as a rule that governs and regulates the Ultimate Ensemble World, acting as the End, Stopper, and Limiter of all existence)

It does not mention End being a concept, nor does it classify it as such. Abstract existence does not automatically mean conceptual existence. Abstractions come in many other forms, such as Laws, Information, etc. Also, you already gave him this:

Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1; Aspects Type 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5 [Other: Fate, History, Causality, Space-Time, Life & Death]

Aspect 2 is Concept. You're basically saying "he's a concept that lacks a concept", which is nonsense... (I mean I can get the logic behind a concept of nonexistence, but not this)

As for BDE 1, it is roughly the same as the spacetime nullification it possesses in Side 5 of NEP 1, because the end is the final destination of everything and the end of all things. Everything will return to it and dissolve within its darkness, which is a void of nothingness where nothing exists and nothing is allowed to exist. It is the only thing that remains at the end because it is the end itself. Therefore, all possible spacetimes have returned to it and ended within it, and absolutely nothing remains.

This is more like just it being a cosmological constant, rather than it lacking space-time outright in the BDE1 sense. Also, I'm fairly sure but, rather than being "the lack of it", it is instead one with all space-time. From yogiri's speed section:

Exists across all the space and time

Unless the mechanic through which it exists throughout all of time and space is explained (such as everything being an infinitesimal part of the End, which the current rating does not suggest, I would disagree and regard the end existing across all of time and space as an anti-feat.

We will now talk about its darkness:

Here, when UEG was inside its darkness—despite being one of the highest-ranking gods in the narrative—she herself could not understand anything there and did not even know where she was. This is despite her being nearly omniscient. Nevertheless, she could not even determine her own location, which indicates that she is beyond everything. The evidence continues: she attempted to travel and move to parallel worlds or other universes, yet all of this failed. There was truly nothing there at all.
The gods are capable of time travel, dimensional travel, and even teleportation:

• Dimensional Travel (Capable of moving between different worlds sending messengers and pulling people's spirits to their world when they die. According to UEG, this strength is expected for a god[3])
  
  Space-Time Manipulation, Power Nullification & Time Travel (The ability of System Engineer allows the user to influence the Battlesong System. Capable of nullifying skills or magic, as well as control space and time.[6] One of Darian’s powers is to travel back to the past if he dies[8])
  
  
  Teleportation (Can teleport to any place that they had visited before[28])

Although she was capable of teleporting anywhere, traveling through time, or moving across dimensions, here she was completely unable to do any of that, as if she were entirely isolated from all of reality. There was no time, no space, no world, and nothing at all. She confirmed that there was truly nothing, which also supports what I said to you about BDE 1.

After that, UEG tried to destroy everything (space-time, the universe, and higher universes, including it as well). However, all of this power that was supposed to destroy all these things vanished into its darkness and had no effect on anything whatsoever. The text once again confirms that there is absolutely nothing here.
Since she could neither do anything nor go anywhere, despite being one of the gods and capable of creating anything there—even an entire world—whatever she created there would melt into its darkness and disappear instantly. The text states that nothing is allowed to exist there.
After that, UEG herself realized that she too was melting into the darkness, and she completely dissolved—her form, her sense of self, and even her very identity—until she disappeared into the darkness and came to an end.

The gods are capable of rewinding time, changing fate, and manipulating causality, as they can alter causes and effects in order to change events and even erase things on a causal level. They can also manipulate information and concepts, and information is what composes the entire world—it is the world itself—and through information manipulation they are capable of changing anything and doing anything.

• Dimensional Travel (Capable of moving between different worlds sending messengers and pulling people's spirits to their world when they die. According to UEG, this strength is expected for a god[3])
  
  Space-Time Manipulation, Power Nullification & Time Travel (The ability of System Engineer allows the user to influence the Battlesong System. Capable of nullifying skills or magic, as well as control space and time.[6] One of Darian’s powers is to travel back to the past if he dies[8])
  
  
  Teleportation (Can teleport to any place that they had visited before[28])

Information Manipulation (Type 2), Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2), Information Analysis & Reality Warping (Should capable of accessing the higher layer of information of the world.[10] Can manipulate the world's core, a condensation of information that defines the world and influences it.[11] By manipulating the world core, reality also will be impacted from it. Those with the authority of god[11] can freely manipulate the world, which is a conceptual structure.[12] Gods are capable of manipulating the underlying building blocks of reality.[13] Can manipulate the information that defines an individual's existence[3])


UEG transcends space-time itself.

Despite all the abilities she possesses, she was still completely incapable of surviving within its darkness. Even though she could rewind time, manipulate space-time, manipulate the information that composes the entire world, or alter the causality of her own state, none of that was possible there, because everything had already ended. There was no concept of causality, information, space-time, fate, or anything else.

This doesn't work at all. For one:

1. It doesn't show a changeless nature. It just shows that because everything ends at it, you can't go back once you have arrived at it. If I had to put it in an analogy, it would be the ultimate "Effect" that all Cause leads to, and also perhaps the cause itself (Since it is both Alpha and Omega), but by no means does being that (being the Final Effect) mean it lacks and transcends causality.
2. Your whole argument is under the assumption that Space-Time = causality, which is not how we treat it here. The acausality page even has a note for specifically this type of argument:

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality are completely independent of cause and effect, existing outside causality. Characters of this nature require evidence of being unable to be changed by any effect that relies on a system of causality, meaning that interacting with them normally is impossible.

Note that being utterly and totally immutable is something that, strictly speaking, is only guaranteed for characters with a Tier 0 rating, while lesser characters can only have likewise lesser forms of the ability by their own nature. They may, however, have a particularly potent form of immutability bestowed upon them by a Tier 0.

Note: Being completely independent of space, time, laws, or similar forces does not make you completely independent of causality without the relationship between these forces and causality being clarified, with it only being considered as evidence for an irregular relationship with causality otherwise.

The Mysterious Space is a space that exists outside all time and space; therefore, this Mysterious Space possesses a BDE 1 nature and is also referred to as the “Question Corner” or the Mysterious Space.

Ah yes, something that's BDE1 (lack of space and time) but is literally called "Space". This just looks like plane range to me; the space exists outside the space-time of the rest of the cosmology. That does not grant BDE1 or anything close to it.

There is also of course the canonity issue.

Information constitutes the entire world and is described as the world itself. Since the world contains everything without exception, including the Sea of Darkness—which is a world possessing NEP 1—and since information is what forms and defines the world and is the world itself, then information also constitutes both existence and non-existence, because the Sea of Darkness is also part of the world. As stated, gods are capable of changing or doing anything through manipulation of the world’s information, and reality itself is altered as a result. Therefore, all characters who possess information manipulation, such as gods and other entities, should also possess erasure of non-existence and BDE 1 through Type 2 information manipulation, because information constitutes the entire world and is the world itself. This applies especially to Yogiri, as he is capable of destroying information itself.


Information Manipulation (Type 2), Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2), Information Analysis & Reality Warping (Should capable of accessing the higher layer of information of the world.[10] Can manipulate the world's core, a condensation of information that defines the world and influences it.[11] By manipulating the world core, reality also will be impacted from it. Those with the authority of god[11] can freely manipulate the world, which is a conceptual structure.[12] Gods are capable of manipulating the underlying building blocks of reality.[13] Can manipulate the information that defines an individual's existence[3])

Uh, this is about the "world". You have to prove Sea of Darkness is a part of a "World" as well. I'm talking about a world as in a universe or CF, not the ultimate ensemble. Otherwise you first have to prove the same single core governs the entire ultimate ensemble and not just a "world".

The End: NEP 2

As we stated previously, the world contains everything without exception, including the Sea of Darkness, which is a void possessing NEP 1. Since information is what composes the world and can itself be regarded as the world itself, as explained earlier, then the End transcends both nonexistence and existence simultaneously. Its darkness is a void of nothingness representing the end of everything, where nothing remains and nothing can exist there. It is the end of information and the entire world itself because it is the end of all things. For this reason, it does not possess information, as is evident from Side 4 of NEP 1, because it represents the end of everything where absolutely nothing exists, as we have repeatedly stated, and this point was already discussed previously.

• Sea of Darkness: Nonexistent Physiology

The idea here is that its nonexistence does not participate in information because it is the end of information and the entire world itself; therefore, it possesses no information, whereas information is what composes the world itself, and the world includes the Sea of Darkness, which is a form of nonexistence possessing NEP 1. Thus, its true form exists completely outside the duality of existence and nonexistence.

Yeah no, same as above. You need to prove Sea of Darkness is encompassed by a world's information core to begin with. Based on what I read, it seems to be an individual world-by-world thing

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Well, now that I have time to look at the thread, here's my two cents:

This is by extension of its nature limited to the cosmology, which is 1-C.

Sure.

Keep in mind for concept type 1, it has to be independent of the cosmology, not just exist alongside it. And for the BD1 you need to lack space-time in specific.

That is something I already know.

This doesn't exactly prove independence tho? All it shows is that parallel worlds and dimensions don't exist there. Sure, but that is not even close to the scope The "End" governs (the end governs the entire ultimate ensemble, yet the scans here only talk about universes and dimensions not existing here).

That is not correct.
The text confirms multiple times that absolutely nothing existed there. No matter how much UEG searched for any world, universe, dimension, or anything else, there was truly nothing at all. After that, she attempted to travel somewhere, but that also failed, despite the fact that she is capable of time travel, interdimensional travel, and teleportation to any location. Even so, the text explicitly states that there was nowhere to travel to in the first place because nothing existed at all. Therefore, your argument here is not correct, and the text itself never stated what you are claiming here; that is only your own interpretation.

"....I see. this definitely seemed to be a phenomenon that even the wisdom of mistress could not comprehend.
But, would the mistress die? I don't know where I am, but I just have to move to wherever it is I'm going."

UEG explored the area. The darkness went on forever, really forever. It goes on and on, endlessly, as far as UEG's perception can go.

Then she tried to find another dimension, another parallel world, another universe, but that didn't work either. What she see is nothing but emptiness.
There really is nothing here.

Realizing this, UEG was slowly beginning to feel fear. No matter where she tried to go, there was nothing. As long as there was nothing, there was nowhere to travel to.

UEG would have also destroyed everything—spacetime, the universe, and higher universes (including his true form)—but that was pointless because these things do not exist in the first place, as they have already ended. You cannot destroy things that do not exist.

Very well then! I will destroy everything! Space-time! The universe! Higher universes, including that one as well!”

UEG unleashed all of her power with everything she had, but the power that was supposed to destroy everything vanished into the void. UEG’s power had absolutely no effect on the surroundings.

“It’s useless. There is nothing here. You cannot destroy something that does not exist.”

Summary:
This proves that spacetime does not exist and that there is absolutely nothing, as the text explains. Even spacetime itself and higher universes are not present. She stated everything, and the text still confirms that these things do not exist. Of course, there is nothing because everything has already ended here in the end, and the narrative confirms that he is the one who will remain at the end because he is the End. As I said, his darkness is a void of nothingness representing the end, so yes, in essence he is the end of everything. In the end, nothing remains.

This supports his possession of BDE 1, since spacetime itself does not exist, as shown when it was targeted along with everything else.

Also, where are you even getting the idea that yogiri is a concept? The current justification from the profile is this:

It does not mention End being a concept, nor does it classify it as such. Abstract existence does not automatically mean conceptual existence. Abstractions come in many other forms, such as Laws, Information, etc. Also, you already gave him this:

Aspect 2 is Concept. You're basically saying "he's a concept that lacks a concept", which is nonsense... (I mean I can get the logic behind a concept of nonexistence, but not this)

I am talking about the law. If there is a law that defines and governs the entire world and is independent from the world, then it should also be a Type 1 law, although I don’t think this currently exists in VSBW. However, regarding his true form, he is the one that defines and knows the entire world. So the “law” here means a law that governs the entire world, which is very similar to a concept, but under the name of a law. Therefore, it should be considered an independent law.

This is more like just it being a cosmological constant, rather than it lacking space-time outright in the BDE1 sense. Also, I'm fairly sure but, rather than being "the lack of it", it is instead one with all space-time. From yogiri's speed section:


Unless the mechanic through which it exists throughout all of time and space is explained (such as everything being an infinitesimal part of the End, which the current rating does not suggest, I would disagree and regard the end existing across all of time and space as an anti-feat.

Being present across all time and space is not an anti-feat, and this also does not mean that spacetime is a part of it as you claim.
Rather, the novel only states that it exists in all time and space; it does not say that spacetime is a part of it. What you are saying is merely your own inference that is not supported by evidence.

This is the justification, and this is what the novel states:

Omnipresent (Exists across all the space and time,[5][6] acting as "The End" and Limiter of the Ultimate Ensemble World[59])

Therefore, what you are saying is not correct. The text does not state that spacetime is a part of it or that it is one with spacetime. Rather, it is only described as existing across all time and space as the End and the limiter of the Ultimate Ensemble world.

(This is what is clarified in the novel and in the justification, and if you have an issue with it, you can also open another thread.)

This doesn't work at all. For one:

1. It doesn't show a changeless nature. It just shows that because everything ends at it, you can't go back once you have arrived at it. If I had to put it in an analogy, it would be the ultimate "Effect" that all Cause leads to, and also perhaps the cause itself (Since it is both Alpha and Omega), but by no means does being that (being the Final Effect) mean it lacks and transcends causality.
2. Your whole argument is under the assumption that Space-Time = causality, which is not how we treat it here. The acausality page even has a note for specifically this type of argument:

Ah yes, something that's BDE1 (lack of space and time) but is literally called "Space". This just looks like plane range to me; the space exists outside the space-time of the rest of the cosmology. That does not grant BDE1 or anything close to it.

For now, I will not discuss Acausality Type 5.

There is also of course the canonity issue.

Uh, this is about the "world". You have to prove Sea of Darkness is a part of a "World" as well. I'm talking about a world as in a universe or CF, not the ultimate ensemble. Otherwise you first have to prove the same single core governs the entire ultimate ensemble and not just a "world".

Yeah no, same as above. You need to prove Sea of Darkness is encompassed by a world's information core to begin with. Based on what I read, it seems to be an individual world-by-world thing

I will respond to this when I am not busy.