Additions to the HDE page (Staff Thread)

[ImmortalDread]

Then the ability from Aliex X should probably be removed.

 

[RaveeCPN]

You just need to be infinitely bigger than it in one of the many ways fiction imagines qualitative superiority.

That's one of the things that I'm trying to say. Thank you for your answer

 

[ImmortalDread]

That's one of the things that I'm trying to say. Thank you for your answer

And my point has been proven, it is not mathematically impossible.

 

[Georredannea15]

If you contain a 4D structure, you're probably 4D (some exceptions exist), but if you contain just a 3D structure as infinitely small thing, then you are not necessarily 4D. You just need to be infinitely bigger than it in one of the many ways fiction imagines qualitative superiority.

Yes, so if a character mathematically infinitely larger than a 3D structure this character should take HDE. I meant that too.

 

[Georredannea15]

This is attack potency

Yes, this is AP alone, but along with what I said, it also qualifies for HDE.

 

[ImmortalDread]

;-; you said "or" which indicate that it has no relevance to the second instance, but I will drop it and say myself, you misspoke.

 

[Georredannea15]

;-; you said "or" which indicate that it has no relevance to the second instance, but I will drop it and say myself, you misspoke.

Actually, all of what I talked about should be considered together, but in short, I explained it wrong.

 

[PrinceofPein]

snip.

This is a first I am hearing about it, so we are not equating it to other forms?
By this, tons of profiles will lose their HDE.
In my opinion, i think we should not make the HDE page to pertain to only maths and physics

You can be larger than n-dimensional space in many ways, not all of them are having more dimensional axis

my example up above is when you are uncountably infinite larger than a 3-D space, that is indeed giving an extra dimensional axis

 

[Georredannea15]

Instead, it should be written on the HDE page that characters with a Type 8 Large size can directly qualify for HDE.

Because characters with a Type 8 Large size will be as large as or contain a universal 4D space-time continuum. In this case, they will have a 4D being.

 

[Firestorm808]

No immediate concerns on the top of my head.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Bump I guess

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The HDE page is for entities that are higher-dimensional in a proper mathematical sense, not simply for all Tier 1 beings/constructs, so neither of these three criteria qualify.

This is true for beings and constructs but what about a particular space such as a realm?

 

[DontTalkDT]

This is true for beings and constructs but what about a particular space such as a realm?

The page isn't for realms for a start. But that aside, the same.

This is a first I am hearing about it, so we are not equating it to other forms?
By this, tons of profiles will lose their HDE.
In my opinion, i think we should not make the HDE page to pertain to only maths and physics

Anything else would not be higher dimensions in any sense of the word, though. And it ultimately would just be a physical tier. The entire page would become pointless as we would need to remove most content form it on grounds that it generally doesn't apply to the users. Just makes no sense to handle it that way.

And that we don't give HDE to beings that are not higher-D isn't new, so I'm not sure why any pages would need to be revised, unless they were created against current standard.

my example up above is when you are uncountably infinite larger than a 3-D space, that is indeed giving an extra dimensional axis

Not necessarily. In fiction you can be larger than stuff in many ways, not all of the involving higher dimensions. Like... any kind of higher plane stuff, basically, where the lower plane is just reduced to some insignificant thing.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The page isn't for realms for a start. But that aside, the same.

oh I see! I understand it’s not for a realm but how can I know if a realm is higher dimensional? I have been having a bit of trouble trying to get a point across, I thought it was straight forward. For instance:

if a realm is stated numerously to be a higher dimension using kanji that imply it is in a mathematical sense ( “ko jigen” for instance) would you consider that realm a 4-D realm?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Anything else would not be higher dimensions in any sense of the word, though. And it ultimately would just be a physical tier. The entire page would become pointless as we would need to remove most content form it on grounds that it generally doesn't apply to the users. Just makes no sense to handle it that way.

We do not need to remove any content, we just find things that equates to 4D even though it is not in Mathematical or Physics sense.
What I mean by that is that even if a character is Higher D by nature of Transcendence or Ontology, they are still Higher Dimensioned regardless.

So to clarify, as 3D we have 3-axes (Height, Length and width) to be given the HDE, you need to be of an extra axis? or stated to have it or shown to have it?

And that we don't give HDE to beings that are not higher-D isn't new, so I'm not sure why any pages would need to be revised, unless they were created against current standard.

A bulk of pages probably a quarter of the pages with HDE are HDE based on statements that says "They are Higher Dimensional" without further contexts as to how. And based on your comment, the characters must be HDE in the mathematical sense to be given HDE.
Let me give you some examples
1. Mammoth from Sonic he has just " Higher-Dimensional Existence," no explanation but I am thinking it is cause he has a statement that says he transcends space and time
2. Mori Dan from GOH, he has " Higher-Dimensional Existence (4-D - Exists in a place where space and time overlap, and can oversee all of creation from this realm),"
3. Eru IIuvatar from LOTR he has just " Higher-Dimensional Existence" and that is because he is responsible for creating the universe through music which is a form of R>F and also holds the whole creation within his mind
4. Arceus and the creation Trio from Pokemon also have just " Higher-Dimensional Existence," and this is based on creating the multiverse
5. Sinbad from Magi " Higher-Dimensional Existence," this is based on the fact that there is an author and fiction difference between Gods.
6. Shinra from Fire Force "Higher-Dimensional Existence (Is the true god of all of creation in the verse, even greater than The Evangelist.)" The Evangelist is a being who is called someone from a higher plane and this is even though there is no qualitative difference in the series.

So now these are just a few of the examples and there are many more, Some of these have HDE just based on them creating the universe or R>F or just based on a statement calling them Higher D alone and there are many more like that, all these are Higher D in their own rights but not in the mathematical sense. So yes if this revision does not go through half of the HDE on the profiles will be revised.

Not necessarily. In fiction you can be larger than stuff in many ways, not all of the involving higher dimensions. Like... any kind of higher plane stuff, basically, where the lower plane is just reduced to some insignificant thing.

So things like this also do not qualify for HDE without context of it being of an extra axis?

And lastly things like
1. Containing timelines or being a timeline would be HDE?
2. Statements like "We humans cannot understand xoxoxo since he is a Higher Dimensional Being" will not qualify without more context to make it in mathematical sense?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Number 3 - eru, this is wrong. He is explicitly referred as higher dimensional as well as in the sense of low 1-C and r>f transcendence combined

 

[PrinceofPein]

Number 3 - eru, this is wrong. He is explicitly referred as higher dimensional as well as in the sense of low 1-C and r>f transcendence combined

there is no direct statement of anyone calling him Higher Dimensional, none of the Ainur did, the R>F you must be referring to the music used for creation, I will add that to it but it does not matter since R>F will also not qualify

The HDE page is for entities that are higher-dimensional in a proper mathematical sense, not simply for all Tier 1 beings/constructs, so neither of these three criteria qualify.

 

[ImmortalDread]

How it comes r>f transcendence is not a good side evidence? You are making no sense right now.

 

[PrinceofPein]

How it comes r>f transcendence is not a good side evidence? You are making no sense right now.

I think we are misunderstanding each other, I mean to say that right now unless this thread goes through, R>F will not qualify for HDE

 

[Aachintya31]

And that we don't give HDE to beings that are not higher-D isn't new, so I'm not sure why any pages would need to be revised, unless they were created against current standard.

Just curious
Should these beings not have higher dimensional Existence ?

 

[Testarossa002]

I feel this is a proper material for staff discussion

The general feeling site wide is that something like R>F seals the deal for HDE
Heck, even a statement like "He's Higher Dimensional" have been used to grant HDE

Maybe we need to revise our standards for HDE and accommodate some stuffs

There's bickering on more than 1 thread now on how their character is HDE via R>F or Transcendent statements

 

[Arceus0x]

4. Arceus and the creation Trio from Pokemon also have just " Higher-Dimensional Existence," and this is based on creating the multiverse

Pretty sure it's from embodying the 4D multiverse doe.

 

[DontTalkDT]

oh I see! I understand it’s not for a realm but how can I know if a realm is higher dimensional? I have been having a bit of trouble trying to get a point across, I thought it was straight forward. For instance:

if a realm is stated numerously to be a higher dimension using kanji that imply it is in a mathematical sense ( “ko jigen” for instance) would you consider that realm a 4-D realm?

I'm not an expert in japanese, but most likely you have to interpret it based on the context.

We do not need to remove any content, we just find things that equates to 4D even though it is not in Mathematical or Physics sense.
What I mean by that is that even if a character is Higher D by nature of Transcendence or Ontology, they are still Higher Dimensioned regardless.

First, there is no such thing as being higher D by nature of ontology. Dimensions are a strictly mathematical thing.

Second, yes we would need to remove the content because it just doesn't apply. We can't say "the character has an additional directional axis through which its body expands" anymore, because that's not true for characters that don't fulfil the actual mathematical properties of dimensions.

We couldn't have the pseudo-invulnerability, because lower D attacks don't necessarily interact with just crossections anymore, as we don't know the geometry of the beings then.

We couldn't have pseudo-teleportation, as we don't know if they can move through a space with additional dimensional axis.

Basically all of the explanations the page gives would not apply to them anymore, as the characters would not be described by subsets of cartesion products of the real numbers etc.

By generalizing it like that, you take basically everything away except what comes with the tier itself, which makes the page pointless. We don't need a page for a character having physical Tier 1 stats, the stats clarify that already.

So to clarify, as 3D we have 3-axes (Height, Length and width) to be given the HDE, you need to be of an extra axis? or stated to have it or shown to have it?

A bulk of pages probably a quarter of the pages with HDE are HDE based on statements that says "They are Higher Dimensional" without further contexts as to how. And based on your comment, the characters must be HDE in the mathematical sense to be given HDE.
Let me give you some examples
1. Mammoth from Sonic he has just " Higher-Dimensional Existence," no explanation but I am thinking it is cause he has a statement that says he transcends space and time
2. Mori Dan from GOH, he has " Higher-Dimensional Existence (4-D - Exists in a place where space and time overlap, and can oversee all of creation from this realm),"
3. Eru IIuvatar from LOTR he has just " Higher-Dimensional Existence" and that is because he is responsible for creating the universe through music which is a form of R>F and also holds the whole creation within his mind
4. Arceus and the creation Trio from Pokemon also have just " Higher-Dimensional Existence," and this is based on creating the multiverse
5. Sinbad from Magi " Higher-Dimensional Existence," this is based on the fact that there is an author and fiction difference between Gods.
6. Shinra from Fire Force "Higher-Dimensional Existence (Is the true god of all of creation in the verse, even greater than The Evangelist.)" The Evangelist is a being who is called someone from a higher plane and this is even though there is no qualitative difference in the series.

So now these are just a few of the examples and there are many more, Some of these have HDE just based on them creating the universe or R>F or just based on a statement calling them Higher D alone and there are many more like that, all these are Higher D in their own rights but not in the mathematical sense. So yes if this revision does not go through half of the HDE on the profiles will be revised.

3 and 4 are perfectly legitimate, if creation they contain refers to at least the timeline. Meanwhile 6. doesn't even proof being physically any tier and 1. has the usual "transcendence" problems mentioned in the Tiering System FAQ. 2. Is also so vague that I don't think it would qualify for even evidence of being Tier 2.

People using the ability in wrong ways is not really a reason to change the standards.

So things like this also do not qualify for HDE without context of it being of an extra axis?

And lastly things like
1. Containing timelines or being a timeline would be HDE?
2. Statements like "We humans cannot understand xoxoxo since he is a Higher Dimensional Being" will not qualify without more context to make it in mathematical sense?

Containing a timeline would be fine, as a timeline is 4D.

What Higher D statements in concerned you just need to evaluate them in context to judge whether they mean proper dimensions or something else.

Just curious
Should these beings not have higher dimensional Existence ?

The explanation sounds like plausible Higher D to me, but that is in isolation. I know nothing about the verse's context and stuff.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

1. has the usual "transcendence" problems mentioned in the Tiering System FAQ. 2. Is also so vague that I don't think it would qualify for even evidence of being Tier 2.

The profile is missing some scans as his profile is still under crt regarding higher dimensional and is being evaluated and handled by Sir Ovens.

What it is missing is mostly scans that refers to higher dimensions. I believe Pain is unaware of this crt so it shouldn't be used as an example here as it lacks further context as to why he gains HDE

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tier-1-goh.153279/#post-5728993

 

[PrinceofPein]

I feel this is a proper material for staff discussion

There is no point and the Staff Discussions are strict now that normal users need to go through a lot to reply there

The profile is missing some scans as his profile is still under crt regarding higher dimensional and is being evaluated and handled by Sir Ovens.

What it is missing is mostly scans that refers to higher dimensions. I believe Pain is unaware of this crt so it shouldn't be used as an example here as it lacks further context as to why he gains HDE

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tier-1-goh.153279/#post-5728993

No I am missing nothing to quote the part you linked

He IS a higher dimensional being. This part was never in question. However, he's NOT 5D. You can have HDE and be 4D. You can see past, present, and future, AND STILL BE 4D.

Tell me what makes the tablets "snapshots" using actual evidence from the story and not using a bunch of unrelated moments to string a theory that the tablets might be whole 4D space times. Even saying it out loud sounds absurd, like why would Xanzang have multiple timelines of the exact same events that are happening in the single timeline we're reading about? At the very best assumption, each tablet is a moment in the past and Mori grabbing one projected himself like Xanzang did during his fight against Satan.

You want to know why Satan said Mori was a higher dimensional being? Because he was being protected by one. Otherwise Mujin would've been a higher dimensional being the moment he became Supreme God.

Do I have to tear this argument apart further or can we start thinking rationally?

nothing here suggest mathematical dimensions, besides it is derailing

 

[PrinceofPein]

First, there is no such thing as being higher D by nature of ontology. Dimensions are a strictly mathematical thing.

I think I should clarify better, I am not saying that there is a literal Higher D by nature of Ontology, I am saying it can be equated but you clarified why it is not so in the later posts, so I will concede on that point.

Second, yes we would need to remove the content because it just doesn't apply. We can't say "the character has an additional directional axis through which its body expands" anymore, because that's not true for characters that don't fulfil the actual mathematical properties of dimensions.

We couldn't have the pseudo-invulnerability, because lower D attacks don't necessarily interact with just crossections anymore, as we don't know the geometry of the beings then.

We couldn't have pseudo-teleportation, as we don't know if they can move through a space with additional dimensional axis.

Basically all of the explanations the page gives would not apply to them anymore, as the characters would not be described by subsets of cartesion products of the real numbers etc.

By generalizing it like that, you take basically everything away except what comes with the tier itself, which makes the page pointless. We don't need a page for a character having physical Tier 1 stats, the stats clarify that already.

Based on this, R>F and Ontology cannot work, so Let me argue for the nature of size. It is nothing long, just tell me what you think about it.
As you know, 1D becomes 2D the moment you stack uncountable infinite of it, same goes for 2D to 3D, and I think by logic, the same should be for 3D to 4D. So size should at least qualify in that sense.

Also, the examples you clarifies helps a lot at least now, we know what gets HDE and what does not get it.
Well I guess I have lots of work to do in that regards, I will revise the profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk seems to make sense to me above, but you both likely need to finish up your discussion above.

 

[PrinceofPein]

He says he replies during the weekends when he is free, so I am waiting on that

 

[Georredannea15]

I don't know how much I can contribute, but as I mentioned above, it can be written on the HDE page that characters with Large size Type 8 can qualify for HDE.

 

[PrinceofPein]

snip

bump

 

[PrinceofPein]

You know what they say, if you cannot beat the players cause the game is rigged, flip the board
I made a draft to be added to the page for better clarification since like me some times ago, most of the wiki members and staffs do not get what the HDE page is about, you can take a look at this thread and my talk with Glassman and see what I mean. Most of the wiki thinks been R>F or transcendence is enough for HDE, so in that sense this should be added to the page

Note: The Higher-Dimensional Existence is for Objects and Entities that are Higher-Dimensional in a proper mathematical sense i.e. the regular 3-Dimensional axis + 1 or more dimensional axis. The following will not qualify for this criteria
1. Viewing 3-Dimensional objects, entities or constructs as fiction; Viewing something as fiction does not mean your body has an extra dimensional axis, as the beings are still portrayed as regular 3-Dimensional beings, they are just 'more real'
2. Holding ontological difference over 3-Dimensional objects, entities or construct; Most times this is a measure of power and will not equate to having an extra dimensional axis
3. Stated to be larger than or contain 3-Dimensional objects, entities or construct; there are numbers of ways fictions portrays infinitely larger than a 3-Dimensional construct but not all of it would mean an extra dimensional axis; being uncountable infinite larger than a 3-Dimensional construct or something similar will mean qualitative superiority as fictions tends to portray it as so, but without further contexts, it should not mean an extra-dimensional axis
4. Stated to be Higher Dimensional or a Higher Plane or a Higher Existence; without further contexts that shows it to be in the virtue of them having an extra dimensional axis to 3-Dimensional entities or objects.
5. Stated to be Extra-Dimensional; the literal meaning of this is an entity or object that comes from outside the regular 3-D space,; this does not mean these entities or objects have an extra dimensional axis in contrast to 3-Dimensional objects, without further contexts.
6. Stated to transcends space or transcend space and time; there are lots of ways a character can transcend without having an extra-dimensional axis or in relation to the geometry of the Object.

I should say though that I currently still hold the view that being uncountable infinite larger than a 3-D structure is enough to say you possess an extra axis, but I will like to see what other staff members thinks

 

[ImmortalDread]

Your draft, Pain, is worse than DT's. However, I do not agree with points 4 and 5, and I believe this thread requires more attention from the staff members.
Since people often dismiss context or categorize it as "insufficient."

As for point 6, it is entirely unnecessary since the FAQ already covers it.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Your draft, Pain, is worse than DT's. However, I do not agree with points 4 and 5, and I believe this thread requires more attention from the staff members.
Since people often dismiss context or categorize it as "insufficient."

As for point 6, it is entirely unnecessary since the FAQ already covers it.

Dread this is a staff thread, please get permission before you comment.
And make an actual argument, your personal views or "I do not agree" are not arguments.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Mind eloborating in your part what is "not enough context" in point 4 and 5?
Also your draft needs a hell of rework, I am not sure if we are going to implement a draft where they capatlise Object or Construct? Ya, no offense, but I could lend you an assistance in fixing this draft.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Mind eloborating in your part what is "not enough context" in point 4 and 5?

an additional spatial axis, is the enough context, anything not that is not enough

Also your draft needs a hell of rework,

it is not the final draft, there will still be a few argument

I am not sure if we are going to implement a draft where they capatlise Object or Construct? Ya, no offense, but I could lend you an assistance in fixing this draft.

Get permission and then you can.
You were the one who made the thread on it being a rule violation to comment on a staff thread without permission

 

[ImmortalDread]

an additional spatial axis, is the enough context, anything not that is not enough

According to who? I am really curious to know why adding limitations to the context.

it is not the final draft, there will still be a few argument

I am glad

Get permission and then you can.
You were the one who made the thread on it being a rule violation to comment on a staff thread without permission

I never knew this is a staff discussion, but hey, why not helping my best friend here? Because it is awful to see the draft with this capatlisations.

The term "Higher-Dimensional Existence" refers to objects and entities that exist in more than the regular 3-dimensional space, with at least one additional dimension. It is important to note that certain criteria must be met for an object or entity to be considered Higher-Dimensional.

• Simply viewing 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs as fiction does not qualify them as Higher-Dimensional, as they are still portrayed as regular 3-dimensional beings.
• Ontological differences over 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs are often a measure of power and do not necessarily indicate the presence of an extra dimensional axis.
• Being larger than or containing 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs does not necessarily mean an object or entity is Higher-Dimensional. While fictions may portray something as infinitely larger than a 3-dimensional construct, this does not necessarily mean it has an extra-dimensional axis. Without further context, it should be regarded as a qualitative superiority
• Simply stating that something is Higher Dimensional or from a Higher Plane or a Higher Existence does not necessarily imply the existence of an extra-dimensional axis in relation to 3-dimensional entities or objects.
• Stating that something is Extra-Dimensional simply means it comes from outside of the regular 3-dimensional space. It does not necessarily mean that it has an extra-dimensional axis in contrast to 3-dimensional objects, without further context.
• Stating that something transcends space or space and time does not necessarily imply that it has an extra-dimensional axis or that it pertains to the geometry of the object

 

[PrinceofPein]

According to who? I am really curious to know why adding limitations to the context.

Cause there are tons of ways to be of higher dimensional without an extra axis in fiction, so yes the burden of proof falls on whoever is trying to say it is in terms of geometry

I never knew this is a staff discussion,

lies, it is literally in the title and i told you twice, Read your draft in contrast to mine and it losts a lot of important contexts, so I will go with mine and edit the grammar when the thread is done.

Anyway please stop derailing now and wait for staffs

 

[ImmortalDread]

You mean a lot of redundancy and the unnecessary usage of words? Ya, I agree

If you don't take criticism, it's fine for me but no need to mark comments you don't like as derailment.

Also, you still did not elaborate what is reason of choosing context you like and limit others?

Also may I understand what is the reason for not equating the likes of number 4 and 5 the same we equate r>f transcendence to qualitative superiority?

 

[ShionAH]

You mean a lot of redundancy and the unnecessary usage of words? Ya, I agree

If you don't take criticism, it's fine for me but no need to mark comments you don't like as derailment.

Also, you still did not elaborate what is reason of choosing context you like and limit others?

Also may I understand what is the reason for not equating the likes of number 4 and 5 the same we equate r>f transcendence to qualitative superiority?

Dread stop, you will get reported

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Going off of what DT said, why should being bigger or having ontological differences give you HDE? It sounds like just giving participation trophies for beings who have tier 1 without an extra-spatial axes.