Addressing Roshi's Feat

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Might be a stupid question, but aren’t the supreme Kai’s just flat out ordinary creationists?

As in they don’t use magic to create and they’re just regular outright creators?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I still don't get how having 7-B feats somehow debunks the 5-C one.

 

[SomebodyData]

No, they use magic.

Update on the calc:

"Checked over the manga when I got back, outside of those scans I, unfortunately, got nothing. Even when Goku flies on Nimbus to Tien they don't show the city until the demon wave attack.

I guess the feat isn't calculable."

It's sort of good and bad news: bad news in that we can't calc it ofc, but sorta good news in that means that King Piccolo and King Furry's statements can be considered. @ProfessorKukui4Life if you know anyone who calc it based on the two panels, you could still debunk it.

@Da_Lunge_Fish it doesn't- in order to prove it is an outlier they have to debunk all the evidence, which means they have no choice but to argue everything in the op. This means that this is gonna be a long thread, but it's probably going to succeed in defeating the outlier mentality.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Was it ever said they use magic to create? I’ll need a refresher on that one.

Anyway, so the feat isnt able to be calced? And how would it consider King Piccolos statement when the city clearly isn’t shown to be fully destroyed?

 

[SomebodyData]

I mean, its literally on the page lmao.

You could try to get someone to calculate it based on the two panels, but the calcer (Drite77) I got stated it'd be less accurate. Again, even if a neighborhood or two or three or even ten survived that doesn't change that they both stated the city was erased. We could be generous and say it 50 / 50 destruction and not destroyed, that'd still prove the point. Heck, even if it was 33 / 66, it would prove another point since Master Roshi's accidental feat is only 3x smaller than the current demon wave calc.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Like I said before, what’s shown > what the characters themselves say as the priority.

If the city isn’t shown to be fully destroyed, then it isn’t. The characters saying it is shouldn’t be taken at face value at that point.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I still don't get how having 7-B feats somehow debunk the 5-C one.

This was asked and said above already.

The argument uses a point that if Piccolo casually did a 7-B feat, 7-B can’t be his overall tier limit, and thus, cant be used to say 5-C is an outlier for him.

However

That entire point relies on Piccolos casual feat being 7-B, the same tier that his strongest move is calced at, in the first place. And it isn’t.

 

[SomebodyData]

Like I said twice now, if you can get someone to accurately calc it, then you can go ahead. Until then, I'm taking the words of the guy who destroyed the city and the guy who reigns over the capital.

Again, I'm being highly generous here by playing with this idea- even if they lied to themselves for no reason and only one side of the city was actually destroyed, that 50/50 split means KP can do it repeatedly or Roshi's feat proves that isn't the limit.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Like I said twice now, if you can get someone to accurately calc it, then you can go ahead. Until then, I'm taking the words of the guy who destroyed the city and the guy who reigns over the capital.

Okay and I’m going to take what’s literally and outright shown to us as the priority that debunks what the characters say.

Unless you want to push for statements having priority over blatant visuals, which none of us here should be agreeing with.

Again, I'm being highly generous here by playing with this idea- even if they lied to themselves for no reason and only one side of the city was actually destroyed, that 50/50 split means KP can do it repeatedly or Roshi's feat proves that isn't the limit.

A casual feat being 2 or so tiers below the tier your aiming for doesn’t equate to this.

Your whole point here hinges on it being 7-B because it destroyed the city and the latter, as it’s shown, isn’t the truth.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Funny you say that when Piccolo destroyed the moon.

*King Piccolo

Happy now?

 

[SomebodyData]

With no calc you can't say that. Your entire argument against two of the most credible first-hand sources to the city's destruction is the fact that a couple of buildings, maybe a couple of neighborhoods even, where King Piccolo did not attack still stand.

Master Roshi's accidental feat is only 3 times weaker than KP's maximum power feat, hence why if even a portion of the damage in KP's demon wave was already done by the hand waving feat it'd prove that it isn't KP's limits.

Until you bring a calc to actually have some credence behind 'it doesn't look like the city was destroyed' or some better point, refrain from commenting on the staff thread.

Heck, considering the Kais are definitely magic users and that argument is settled, there really isn't anything else left to debate.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

The term outlier is so overused here. Outlier is something really out of place, something that sticks out like a sore thumb. Here, every feat a tier or two higher than average a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶e̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶f̶f̶ ̶m̶e̶m̶b̶e̶r̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶g̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ is called an outlier.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The term outlier is so overused here. Outlier is something real out of place, something that sticks out like a sore thumb. Here, every feat a tier or tow higher than average a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶e̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶f̶f̶ ̶m̶e̶m̶b̶e̶r̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶g̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ is called an outlier.

^
This on infinite levels.
cough comics cough

 

[Ionliosite]

Comparing anything related to outliers and scaling to comics is pretty much misleading, since we explicity treat them as an exception to our regular rules, as explained on the page about that. Like, comics are its thing, not our standard.

 

[Drite77]

Eyyyy, I don't know nothing about what is being talked here, but SomebodyData asked me to calc the feat that Piccolo Daimao made, and it is here if someone wants to check it out

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So the feat, even with its high end result, isn’t even higher than Roshis accidental feat?

 

[Drite77]

I mean, you tell me, I was asked to do the calc and I figured it would be important to give people the information they need, I make calcs, not debate

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Of course. Well either way, thanks for the help Drite. It’s appreciated.

 

[Drite77]

 

[SomebodyData]

Well R.I.P. that point. Fortunately, it seems that the Kami side of things has been concluded for the thread in time.

 

[SomebodyData]

Let me tie up a loose end before we go into "grace" for this thread.

Speed I think is the last issue AKM had with accepting Moon level Roshi, however, I do have an argument for that:

According to Popo on the last page, the issue was Goku only using his eyes when he should be sensing the chi instead, not necessarily speed.

This isn't unique to this page either, Gohan had the exact same issue with an inferior Saibaman and Jaco mentioned this in the U6 and Moro Arcs.

 

[AKM sama]

Teaching Goku to sense chi is completely unrelated to telling him to be faster than lightning. One is teaching him extrasensory perception while other is telling him to increase his speed. Goku using his eyes and not his ki sensing to track Popo's movement doesn't have any effect on Goku's own speed which is below lightning speed at this point according to Popo.

Also, the Kami thing still has arguments that are unanswered and it is important because the feat is being used to prove that Roshi's is not an outlier. You proved how magic and ki are not corelated and that was my initial point as well. They are two completely different power systems and DB itself makes a distinction between them, and you also proved how many characters have much more ki-based AP than Magic based. While many characters get a ton of different abilities via their magic (creation being no different). Kami along with Moori, Dende and Guru, is from the Dragon-clan that specifically excels in magical abilities and that is why they can create a magical reality warping dragon. While Warrior-type Namekians excel in ki-based powers. There is clear distinction between the two. So if magic and ki based AP are shown to be different, magical abilities are shown to be vastly different then ki-based abilities, the Namekians are divided into types based on this, how do you scale Kami's Moon creation that is purely a magical ability to his ki-based AP? Why should we automatically assume that his magical ability of creation is equivalent to his ki-based attack potency. I still don't see any proof of it and I don't remember Kami ever displaying anything suggesting that either.

 

[SomebodyData]

That's why I brought up Gohan and Jaco- they shouldn't get faster or slower just because they can "see better", yet clearly are doing just that. It's stupid, but we frequently see chi sensing required to keep up with people below like with Gohan or leagues above like with Jaco. And its not even like how Bulma can somehow track a fight- Toriyama actively mentions that constantly. The same issue happened with Zeno needing an iPad to keep up with the fights- despite happening in realtime. Ignoring that would be like claiming Gohan wasn't Sub-Rel or Rel during the fight with Nappa just because he can't keep up without chi sensing.

Well like I said if you want to interpret the creation feats to be uncorrelated be my guest. However, every one of your examples, safe for Babidi who lacks offensive attacks for both magic and chi, has chi > magic.

Shenron's magical abilities are limited directly by the strength of Kami, which seems like a direct correlation there. Let's ignore every other character who isn't in the Dragon Clan then for a moment (I don't like how we're separating how magic works now by race unless there is more evidence, but to get to another point). We don't know the power level of Dende & Moori, and the only way to guess would be based on their potential unlock which probably isn't enough evidence here. Kami is being debated ofc, though the fact that he's actually stronger than King Piccolo debunks the idea that Warrior Clan is inherently > Dragon Clan. Not to mention he was stronger than a restored King Piccolo casually, but that's one example. So Guru is the last one left. Well back in the Namek Saga, Guru implies he could have defended the dragon balls himself at one point but has since grown too old and weak. He directly mentions Frieza here, and this is before the Ginyu Force arrive and after Nail reveals himself stronger than Zarbon- so this is pretty much referencing at the very least first form Frieza.

 

[SomebodyData]

Actually, just remembered there is another speed feat on the caliber of Roshi's Kamehameha- Goku's power pole reached the moon (Coincidence I guess on the same distance). It was considered an outlier for the power pole and didn't really scale to Goku (since at most people can only do a surprise face when hit, meaning no one really blocks or anything). However, looking back., Goku managed to fight mid-expansion against King Piccolo, it might not be an outlier at all. Another coincidence here, since like you mentioned with the Piccolo feat and Popo statements' consistency, this would be a natural progression of Goku's speed.

 

[AKM sama]

When did Gohan get a speed boost just because he used ki sensing? Gohan's speed remains the same, the only difference was at first he was using his eyes so he couldn't keep track of the opponents and speed is irrelevant when you can't even see your opponent, but later he started using ki sensing so he was able to keep track of his opponents. And it is obvious that once you can keep track of your opponents, you can react to their attacks. How does that make him any faster? That doesn't change his inherent speed. Jaco can also keep track of much faster opponents. But I fail to see how it effects his inherent speed. Again, extrasensory perception =/= speed boost. The former just lets you keep track of your opponents better which helps you to react to their attacks and latter is your own movement speed. It is completely unrelated here where Popo tells Goku that his movement speed should be faster than lightning.

I never said some members of dragon clan can't be more powerful than other members of warrior clan. Young Guru's strength is a complete mystery and that is not relevant to my point. Dende and Moori are also unknowns as you said. But none of that proves why should we just assume Kami's magical creation ability as his normal ki-based AP.

Goku's power pole expanding to the Moon is a gag feat, and it is treated as an outlier because Goku cannot survive in space. So him reaching Moon and coming back to Earth is a contradiction. Not to mention, the timeframe of that feat is also unspecified. (Also, I remember Goku actually fought while extending his power pole on several occasions during the Red Ribbon saga as well or even before that.)

 

[Damage3245]

Where are we at to currently with the arguments from the OP? Because I believe that some of them like:

• Considers King Piccolo's first (Not the one through an energy beam that we are currently scaling based upon) casual 7-B feat an outlier, which was done by merely waving his hand. This does not look like the face of someone who was tired out of a 7-B attack.

Have been addressed and aren't entirely valid (such as that attack not having a 7-B calc).

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that we do have what seem to be two legitimate 5-C feats. One from full power Roshi and one from Kami empowering Shenlong, so at the end of the day this largely depends on if we can find a way to make sense of the scaling that would be based on this.

 

[Damage3245]

I thought the one from Shenlong was still being disputed as not something relevant to the AP scaling?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Whether or not it scales to raw stats, if its just environmental destruction, is a glass cannon, just a reality warper, etc., it’s still a feat.

 

[AKM sama]

Where are we at to currently with the arguments from the OP?

From the summary in the OP:

There exist 3 5-C feats, one by Roshi and if we're conservative, one by Shenron and one by Kami-though most likely both by Kami. King Piccolo alone has another casual 7-B feat that proves his attack against Goku isn't limited to city level and states himself that he is capable at least 6-B to High 6-A feats. By all accounts, 5-C Roshi is not an outlier.

The other two 5-C feats mentioned are done through magical creation ability and we don't know whether that scales to Kami's ki-based AP. It appears safer to just make him 5-C via creation magic imho. If so, it wouldn't be supporting evidence for Roshi's feat.

And there is also the speed issue that I brought up before that is not mentioned in this summary. Basically, it makes Goku and cast sub-relativistic while a much faster Goku was being trained to move faster than lightning later in the series and later showed consistent faster than lightning feats in the 23rd Budokai.

 

[Damage3245]

That does seem to be an inconsistency, yeah.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I have a question, but was the Roshi feat even calced? Or can it not be?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

No it wasn’t.

 

[SomebodyData]

@AKM sama "speed is irrelevant when you can't even see your opponent"

And why can't he see his opponent? It was just because of speed unless you want to argue with people who can't sense chi are practically blind to people with Popo's level of speed or higher. Popo directly connects Goku not keeping up with his lack of extrasensory ability and not having a blank mind. The second page linked has him teaching Goku how to move faster than lightning by doing so. The only consistency between the lightning feats is MHS+ to slightly higher MHS+. Between the power pole and Roshi that's just as consistent, if not more (Considering how apparently adult Goku only grew slightly faster after Popo taught him faster than lightning movement as a child?)

I'm pointing it out because if you want to argue they're not related, that's fine. However, in the examples, the chi of the Dragon Clan still surpass their magical abilities. Guru's power is a mystery yeah, though the fact that he considers being able to defend the dragon balls in his youth from Frieza shows he was at least higher than Porunga. Hence there is no reason to assume Kami, who can still move in his old age, is completely inverted. Also forgot to mention Piccolo in this as well, given he's still part of Dragon Clan but shows his chi to be much more better than his magic.

Early Dragon Ball was mostly gag feats, I'm not quite sure why we're separating this one from the others. Monster Carrot's profile still accounts for that moon feat and apparently Toriyama even comments on what happened to them after the moon was destroyed. It's pretty clear the moon has oxygen given the Carrot crew survived, although like you said, we don't know the timeframe so it's not like him running out of the air would have been a problem. As far as I'm aware, most fights involving the pole either involve him using it as a ranged weapon with extend or as a regular pole, not fighting while being comparable to the speed of the extending.

We also haven't talked about King Piccolo's Tier 6 statements which inherently debunk the outlier argument by showing his demon wave isn't the limit to his AoE.

 

[Damage3245]

We also haven't talked about King Piccolo's Tier 6 feats which inherently debunk the outlier argument by showing his demon wave isn't the limit to his AoE.

For a statement without a supportive Tier 6 feat, couldn't we just say his tier is "7-B, likely/possibly higher"?

I don't see how the statements completely debunk his rating being 7-B.

Unless there is some other Tier 6 feat I'm forgetting about.

 

[SomebodyData]

I mean he literally had the lottery in hand, it seems rather absurd to think he wasn't going to do it or it would only fetch "likely / possibly higher"

 

[SomebodyData]

Also just remembered we tried hiding some of the contradictions of 7-B Roshi. Such as stating he was training in secret when he conveniently gained 5-C scaling in Dragon Ball Super in his buff form too. Nevermind the fact that Roshi without the training of someone like Kami or higher would never be able to reach the tier.

Similarly, Goku managed to survive and knockback Old Piccolo back in his 8-C tab which we ignore (or consider an outlier, wasn't there for that discussion). Which makes the scaling go from:

Young Piccolo Full Power (Only a 3x gap with Max Power Roshi's accidental feat mind you) > Young King Piccolo > Old Piccolo > Max Power Roshi

Young Piccolo Full Power (Still only that 3x gap) > Young King Piccolo normally > Old Piccolo > Tien with Kikoho > Kid Goku (Pre-Water, despite being hungry managed to knock back KP, actually bothered fighting whereas Roshi didn't even use Max Power) => Tien => Max Power Roshi

It's contradictory to think that the gap between them is only 3x at most thanks to the casual nature of Roshi's feat and the drain of KP's feat with a scaling train like that.

EDIT: Something to add from XSOULOFCINDERX:

"Roshi blew up the moon but can't beat King Piccolo. King Piccolo killed Shenron who can recreate the moon. Kami is casually above that King Piccolo and the Goku who beat said King Piccolo.

I'm just saying it makes the whole "Kami isn't Moon Level through Shenron" thing a little less messy considering he's that much stronger than the guy who's already stronger than the Moon Buster."

He has a point, it would be more consistent within the scaling if we assume Kami is 5-C regularly than what would be "6-C with chi, 5-C with magic" if this revision is knocked down.

 

[AKM sama]

And why can't he see his opponent?

It is said right there on the scan you linked.
1. Popo's speed was too great for Goku to keep track of. Goku asks why didn't he see anything.
2. Popo says Goku was only looking with his eyes and that he needs to clear his soul, sharpen his spirit and feel the slightest movements in the atmosphere (this is not only extrasensory perception, it is also enhanced senses).

And that's how Popo taught Goku how to keep track of faster opponents. That has nothing to do with speed. The only speed part here is Popo blitzing Goku or demonstrating his own speed while specifically telling Goku that he needs to move faster than lightning.

Guru's power is a mystery yeah, though the fact that he considers being able to defend the dragon balls in his youth from Frieza shows he was at least higher than Porunga.

No that statement is taken out of context and incorrectly translated. The conversation was how Guru was about to die in a few days and that Krillin needed to hurry up before that. And that Guru was not able to move from there and not even Nail would be able to protect him if Freeza arrives. Nothing about being able to protect himself or his balls from Freeza in his prime.

Also forgot to mention Piccolo in this as well, given he's still part of Dragon Clan but shows his chi to be much more better than his magic.

He is different case given how he is unable to make dragon balls and the dragon balls disappeared when Kami merged with him, meaning he isn't your regular dragon clan Namekian and clearly an abnormality given how powerful he was as compared to the rest of his race. That's why Goku asked if he can un-fuse again. Kami clearly possessed much more magical prowess given the scenario while Piccolo only had next to nothing. And that was the whole reason why Goku went looking for a new dragon clan Namekian. That analogy is unrelated to Kami who was so much more magically inclined as to be able to create the dragon balls which only the dragon-clan members can do.

Monster Carrot's profile still accounts for that moon feat and apparently Toriyama even comments on what happened to them after the moon was destroyed. It's pretty clear the moon has oxygen given the Carrot crew survived

Your comment itself points out why this feat is gag and isn't meant to be taken seriously. Even the manga pays direct homage to the beloved Japanese "Rabbit on the Moon" folklore for children where rabbits live on the Moon making mochi. Toriyama also says that Monster Carrot and his crew survived the explosion of the Moon and are still floating in space. So I guess they have Moon level durability now and those humans can survive in the vacuum of space, but Goku and Vegeta can't? This has gone from validating Roshi's outlier to validating every other blatant inconsistency/outlier/gag in DB which would ultimately invalidate a massive plot point of Freeza saga and RoF arc.

Also, being able to tell when the power pole should stop extending/retracting wouldn't be possible if its speed was sooooo much greater than Goku's, who couldn't even see a Popo who was only lightning fast. (We not that on Monster Carrot's profile because we don't assume he is a regular human given his...you know...appearance and such, but honestly I am indifferent about giving him the ability to survive in space and it doesn't really matter here.)

He has a point, it would be more consistent within the scaling if we assume Kami is 5-C regularly than what would be "6-C with chi, 5-C with magic" if this revision is knocked down.

It would have made perfect sense for Kami to be 5-C regularly if we didn't treat Roshi's feat an outlier, because powerscaling. But as long as Roshi's feat itself is invalidated, we have no reason to assume as such.

I mean he literally had the lottery in hand, it seems rather absurd to think he wasn't going to do it or it would only fetch "likely / possibly higher"

I will agree with you here. While I get that an empty statement by a guy who called himself "limitless/omnipotent" depending on the translations and constantly hyped himself as someone who is unbeatable even though he knew of Kami's existence, is hard to believe without him backing it up. But I personally don't think King Piccolo would have said something like that to the whole world if he wasn't capable of that, when he was just going to demonstrate it in a little while. I mean, talk about the embarrassment he would have felt if it didn't happen the way he described to the whole world after talking so big. I think we can get it calculated how much energy is needed to destroy 1/43rd of the world's land in the same way he destroyed this city as an example.

 

[God900]

You know, I actually think that DB Magic is almost equal to Nanatsu No Taizai Magic...

The origin of both is not explained and they seem not to use your own stamina.

Also, Both Magics aren't realated to someone's Life energy/Chi.
Otherwise, Drole should've died when Zeldris sealed away all of his Magic power. Or when Moro was still alive after having all his Magic sealed away by the Supreme Kai.

 

[SomebodyData]

Popo: "First empty your soul."
Goku: "Incredible! That calm.... I can't sense you at all...."
Goku (Trying to mimic Popo): "Like this?"
Popo: "You're fuist not thinking of anything. Clearing your soul is different."
Goku: "That's hard."
Goku: "And... You must move faster than lightning."
Goku (Can't see Popo's movements): "Aaah!!"

Popo directly links emptying his soul to achieve speeds faster than lightning. Also, again, Gohan and Jaco prove otherwise anyway. There is also the possibility that it's just a contradiction. Right now we only have Popo's statement against 2 feats, not to mention this isn't the first time we've had this issue (ala Dypso FTL and Frieza LS).

It's not out of context as much as it seems we have different translations.

I don't think it's ever stated that Piccolo can't create dragon balls (It wouldn't make sense either way with Kamicclo being the Original Namekian). I'll concede on that point if it was.

I don't see why referencing another story makes it inherently not a feat? Early DB itself was the story of Journey to the West, with Toriyama known for including movie and superhero references (Like the Terminator and Superman) into DB. As for Goku's power pole, pretty sure he already has a distance in mind when he extends the power pole, but you can correct me if you want.

Yes but right now it's a circular form of reasoning. Roshi's feat is an outlier so 5-C Kami doesn't make sense so Roshi's feat is an outlier.

I mean, just from the 1 /43 of the world (assuming he only meant land) would be tier 6 by default. I could get a calc if needed, although it would be slightly redundant.