Addressing the ability weakness for the Dragon Ball verse

[MrLuk2000]

(If this has been already been addressed then please close this thread)

So this has come to my attention in many Versus Threads that I have seen relating to Dragon Ball matchups. This would be the abilities in the Dragon Ball verse and how 1 would argue character A's hax wouldn't work on character B due to character B's power being far superior, even though when they don't have resistance to that said ability one would argue since that is what we typically see in Dragon Ball.

Why am I making this thread? Why to finally address this.

Mostly noted by @Gilad_Hyperstar to make a CRT where this isn't a resistance but a weakness for the Dragon Ball characters since a character of lower power can't affect the character with higher power with their abilities. So I think we should make a page for this where characters in Dragon Ball can't affect those where the opponent's power is greater than their own.

The main abilities that should be addressed are: Void Manipulation/Existence Erasure, Paralysis Inducement (God Bind), and to a degree Time Manipulation

 

[Cass5373]

Following

 

[Huesito88]

Ok then list the hax that'll be affected by this, if it does go through.

 

[Vietthai96]

At this point there are so many of this thread about DB haxes have weakness that can't affect one with stronger power than users, and i'm tired of this shit

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Agree with the premises of only the cases were it’s made clear that the Hax in question doesn’t works against a character with a higher power level.

 

[Cass5373]

Ok then list the hax that'll be affected by this, if it does go through.

I believe that manipulation of Fate means that the Dragon Gods cannot affect beings more powerful than them with their powers without their permission...that would be the clearest example, at least I think...

 

[Vietthai96]

Iirc, there only one case of His Time Skip in DBS manga and people start extrapolate it into either people can powered through hax or it is DB hax weakness is can't affect stronger character, some do argue Hakai case iirc

 

[MrLuk2000]

Ok then list the hax that'll be affected by this, if it does go through.

Mostly Void Manipulation/Existence Erasure via the Hakai in Dragon Ball Super but there are many more abilities if we were to include Xeno/Heroes which I'm no expert in.

 

[Vietthai96]

Xenoverse/Heroes you can't powered through hax, it is explained under note section on both Special Ki Manipulation and Time Power page

 

[MrLuk2000]

There's also Transmutation regarding Vegito during his fight with Buu and Mind Manipulation with Vegeta when Babidi tried to take over Vegeta's mind

 

[Vietthai96]

Vegito still get transmuted, it is just that he can move himself while being transmuted, Vegeta didn't powered through Babidi mind hax, it is his strong willpower to resist the mind hax, Dabura was completely under the mind hax

In Xenoverse/Heroes, Babidi can even mind hax Janemba, Omega Shenron,.......

 

[MrLuk2000]

What you said for Transmutation is fair but the Mind Manipulation still stands. Vegeta let Babidi mind control him so he could get a power boost and fight Goku.

 

[Vietthai96]

What you said for Transmutation is fair but the Mind Manipulation still stands. Vegeta let Babidi mind control him so he could get a power boost and fight Goku.

Vegeta still getting affected by Babidi trying to control his mind, that displayed through his struggling on screen, and you still not address Dabura situation.

Also Vegeta iirc, isn't about power boost, he want him back to his old ruthless nature so he can fight Goku, he got soften in the time he spent on Earth, with people like Bulma and his son

 

[MrLuk2000]

Vegeta still getting affected by Babidi trying to control his mind, that displayed through his struggling on screen, and you still not address Dabura situation.

Also Vegeta iirc, isn't about power boost, he want him back to his old ruthless nature so he can fight Goku, he got soften in the time he spent on Earth, with people like Bulma and his son

He struggled at first but then later gave into it to get a power boost. Vegeta even implied that he let him control him so he can get the power he needed to fight Goku. Despite him being "controlled" he maintained his free will

 

[Vietthai96]

He struggled at first but then later gave into it to get a power boost. Vegeta even implied that he let him control him so he can get the power he needed to fight Goku. Despite him being "controlled" he maintained his free will

He let Babidi control his mind, but when Babidi decide to exert his mind control power he still influence Vegeta mind, make him struggling like crazy, until Vegeta doing his usual Saiyan pride shit then Babidi stop trying, so power or not, his mind still being influenced

 

[MrLuk2000]

He let Babidi control his mind, but when Babidi decide to exert his mind control power he still influence Vegeta mind, make him struggling like crazy, until Vegeta doing his usual Saiyan pride shit then Babidi stop trying, so power or not, his mind still being influenced

Despite him being influenced, he still outright refused to obey Babidi.

 

[Vietthai96]

Despite him being influenced, he still outright refused to obey Babidi.

And??, what matter??, it is still his resistance feat, Vegeta mind still get influenced by Babidi trying to control, just his willpower is strong enough to refuse to obey Babidi suggestion, nothing here indicated power is in play, it is just you assume it is

 

[MrLuk2000]

And??, what matter??, it is still his resistance feat, Vegeta mind still get influenced by Babidi trying to control, just his willpower is strong enough to refuse to obey Babidi suggestion, nothing here indicated power is in play, it is just you assume it is

Despite the fact that he was being influenced he still broke out of it. That's all I'm saying

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah........but........it is his resistance feat, i'm confused, what exactly you are arguing for??, Babidi can't mind control Vegeta cause Vegeta power > Babidi and it is just Vegeta let him do it or what???

 

[VinnyXD]

This isn't really a thing most of if not almost all hax in Dragon Ball you can't resist just by being stronger.

Whis made like one statement in DBS manga about one of Hits abilities

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I wouldn't say all haxes in Dragon Ball works that way. but it is the case for Hit's time skip (directly stated in the manga), and about Hakai

 

[Vietthai96]

about Hakai

then would you mind explain how base Goku who is vastly weaker than Golden Frieza still alive when he get hit by the Hakai, unless you want to claim that Sidra is weaker than base Goku, and in manga, Goku nearly EE Fusion Zamasu despite him did a failed version if it and he would be erased if Mai isn't there to be a free hostage for Zamasu???

I'm tired of this same bullshit

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

then would you mind explain how base Goku who is vastly weaker than Golden Frieza still alive when he get hit by the Hakai, unless you want to claim that Sidra is weaker than base Goku,

Goku would have been erased if Beerus didn't show up, and the hakai ball Sidra gave to them wasn't his full power at all

and in manga, Goku nearly EE Fusion Zamasu despite him did a failed version if it and he would be erased if Mai isn't there to be a free hostage for Zamasu???

Zamasu is immortal, Beerus stated himself that hakai can't kill immortals in the manga

 

[Vietthai96]

Goku would have been erased if Beerus didn't show up, and the hakai ball Sidra gave to them wasn't his full power at all

Sidra still intent to erase them, and no, Goku was withstanding the Hakai, in his base form, for a good amount of time before Beerus blow away the Hakai, hell Goku even talking with Frieza and then Beerus slowly come in then did some talking, and lastly, Hakai effect is an instant effect in anime, so your argument that Goku would have been erased if Beerus didn't show up is wrong

Zamasu is immortal, Beerus stated himself that hakai can't kill immortals in the manga

Can't kill cause he can regen from it erasure power, and the manga disagree with you, Zamasu was slowly being erased away by Goku before he take Mai as hostage

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Besides Hit's thing, there's also:

Goku's God Bind being negated by Broly powering up and overpowering Goku's ki.

Nappa resisting Chaotsu's telekinesis by being too strong

The Dragon Balls can't effect people stronger than it without their permission. Stated again here.

Gohan resisted East Kaioshin's paralysis because he was simply too strong and Shin could barely control him.

Vegeta breaking out of supposedly ab0 ice by powering up.

Goku overpowered

However, even in Dragon Ball itself, there's counterexamples

Moro's energy drain works on people stronger than him.
Guldo's Time Stop and Telekinesis work on people stronger than him.
Roshi's Mafuba worked on Vegeta despite their strength gap and his Sleepy Boy technique also worked on people stronger than him.
Ginyu's Body Change is specifically used on people stronger than him to steal their body.

It's a very case by case basis.

 

[Jaakor48]

Vegeta's absolute zero showing already nullified this like of reasoning, as it blatantly showed that increasing their ki increases their current resistance to attacks


I am not sure what "came to your attention" but in all the Dragon ball threads I've seen, all resistances are based on their profile, you can't argue a resistance to a hax if it's not on their profile, so I am not sure which matchups you're referring to


DBS manga hit and Dragon balls when asked to kill someone are the only ones stated to have this limitation

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Resistance if it exists in relation to power is due to ki. No other verse has it and thus it doesn't apply.

 

[AwkguyDB]

If we are simply saying that resistance doesn’t work because people increase their ki then wouldn’t that just actually give more people resistances since ki is DB exclusive? You would actually be arguing that through ki DB characters would be able to resist a lot of stuff

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses. For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses. It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess. However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization.

Equalization works highly on a case-by-case basis, so many relevant cases should be discussed in the versus thread itself.

 

[VinnyXD]

Besides Hit's thing, there's also:

Goku's God Bind being negated by Broly powering up and overpowering Goku's ki.

Nappa resisting Chaotsu's telekinesis by being too strong

The Dragon Balls can't effect people stronger than it without their permission. Stated again here.

Gohan resisted East Kaioshin's paralysis because he was simply too strong and Shin could barely control him.

Vegeta breaking out of supposedly ab0 ice by powering up.

Goku overpowered

However, even in Dragon Ball itself, there's counterexamples

Moro's energy drain works on people stronger than him.
Guldo's Time Stop and Telekinesis work on people stronger than him.
Roshi's Mafuba worked on Vegeta despite their strength gap and his Sleepy Boy technique also worked on people stronger than him.
Ginyu's Body Change is specifically used on people stronger than him to steal their body.

It's a very case by case basis.

Chaotsu Telekinesis later worked on Base Goku in Super. Nappa could actually have a resistance

Broly just adapted

For the Dragon Balls didn't Vegeta get teleported to Earth at the end of the Frieza arc?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Telekinsesis isn't hax wtf...

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

For the Dragon Balls didn't Vegeta get teleported to Earth at the end of the Frieza arc?

These were the Namekian Dragon Balls, which may not have this power limitation

 

[VinnyXD]

Telekinsesis isn't hax wtf...

Depends on how you use it

 

[Huesito88]

Depends on how you use it

More like depends on how you resist telekinesis

 

[StrymULTRA]

Always agreed with this, Dragon Ball just sucks hax-wise.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm not really seeing the arguments here. EE Resistance being power-based is inherently contradicted by Base Goku's resistance to a power Golden Freeza struggles with (when we later see them be totally matched when Goku uses Blue) and it's spelled out in that same episode that Freeza evolved his Ki Control.

Soul Destruction is a little vague. I presume since you single out the manga that's for DBS? In which case what exactly are we talking about? Is it Goku erasing Zamasu? Because the only reason that was stopped was because Zamasu warped Mai over as a hostage. And Zamasu resisted it due to a mixture of Goku's inexperience and Zamasu being immortal.

God Bind...maybe? But his profile accepts that as Broly having Reactive Evolution. i.e he developed the resistance in response to experiencing paralysis. And I think that's a little contradicted by feats like Freeza's Imprisonment Ball working on much stronger characters like GoD Toppo for several seconds.

Time Manipulation? That only stands with Hit's Time Skip in the manga which is explicitly based on Ki vs Ki. In the anime there is nothing like that. When Goku breaks through Time Skip, Hit just evolves it to be more effective (rather than using higher raw power).

The best argument I've seen thus far is for Telekinesis but I could have sworn Telekinesis was treated as a Lifting Strength thing, wasn't it? That is, if the target has greater Lifting Strength they can inherently resist it. If I'm remembering that correctly then why would Nappa breaking telekinesis with power be strange? He simply has greater Lifting Strength because he's much stronger. Ergo Chiaotsu's telekinesis does not work.

Same deals with Babidi's mind hax (nothing indicates it's based on power) or Transmutation (it literally works on Vegito. Vegito just uses his Ki to enhance his jawbreaker form and retains consciousness because...reasons? Souls exist?)

-

I'm not seeing seriously convincing arguments here for DB hax being inherently power-based. Hammer it in with something more concrete.

 

[Cass5373]

At least in the case of the Super anime there are some anti feats but it could be applicable in the case of DBS and in the case of the Dragon Gods with their reality Warping. I am in favor of resistance to Hax with respect to major in DB but what you have to do is create a valid argument for it to be accepted.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Of course it's not a weakness, it's a merit to Ki, where certain skills can be bypassed with Ki, this just means that Ki can nullify certain hax or skills, obviously if you have Ki you can resist certain attacks or even nullify them all. I disagree.

We have already had two conversations on this subject and each time they were rejected, I don't see why this is open

 

[Huesito88]

Of course it's not a weakness, it's a merit to Ki, where certain skills can be bypassed with Ki, this just means that Ki can nullify certain hax or skills, obviously if you have Ki you can resist certain attacks or even nullify them all. I disagree.

We have already had two conversations on this subject and each time they were rejected, I don't see why this is open

So we can get a discussion rule for it

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

So we can get a discussion rule for it

I can't wait, it's the same argument every time and wanting to lower the characters' resistance, all because it serves both to resist and cancel attacks, just give characters attack or resistance cancellations through ki.