Alice Anotherbible (Toaru) Revision

[FantaRin_The_First]

Bump.

So, with Qaw's words, I suppose the issue regarding Alice's resistances are solved (for the most part) as long as they are slapped with a possibly rating?

@XDragnoir , @Zensum , @Accelerate420
Am I correct to assume that you guys are fine with the proposed AP/Tier rating?

To organize things, and help this move along,
Current points of contention:
1. Regeneration negation

2. Infinite speed

3. Immunity/Resistance to various forms of internal damage


Changes to Initial Proposals:
1. Removal of creation
2. Changing SoL speed to Sub-Relativistic
3. Removal of Death Manipulation via Fate Manipulation

Did I miss anything?

I also wanna say that I agree with changing regen negation to resurrection negation, Infinite Speed to Teleportation and I agree with all of the changes to the initial proposals, btw.

 

[Axscell]

I just made additions to the votes section above. Can I get everyone's stance on the following points:

Infinite Speed:
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral: @Axscell

Regeneration Negation:
Agree with regeneration negation:
Agree with resurrection negation: @Axscell
Disagree with both:

Internal Damage Immunity:
Agree with blanket term "immunity to internal damage":
Agree with listing down all immunities as possibly: @Axscell , @XDragnoir , @Qawsedf234
Disagree with immunity to internal damage:

 

[XDragnoir]

I just made additions to the votes section above. Can I get everyone's stance on the following points:

Infinite Speed:
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral: @Axscell

Neutral.

Regeneration Negation:
Agree with regeneration negation:
Agree with resurrection negation: @Axscell
Disagree with both:

Resurrection negation.

 

[StrangerALover]

It seems that this topic will continue indefinitely.

 

[Aseka]

Infinite Speed:
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral: @Axscell

Agree

Regeneration Negation:
Agree with regeneration negation:
Agree with resurrection negation: @Axscell
Disagree with both:

Resurrection negation

Internal Damage Immunity:
Agree with blanket term "immunity to internal damage":
Agree with listing down all immunities as possibly: @Axscell , @XDragnoir , @Qawsedf234
Disagree with immunity to internal damage:

Possibly

 

[StrangerALover]

I just made additions to the votes section above. Can I get everyone's stance on the following points:

Infinite Speed:
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral: @Axscell

Regeneration Negation:
Agree with regeneration negation:
Agree with resurrection negation: @Axscell
Disagree with both:

Internal Damage Immunity:
Agree with blanket term "immunity to internal damage":
Agree with listing down all immunities as possibly: @Axscell , @XDragnoir , @Qawsedf234
Disagree with immunity to internal damage:

agree
resurrection negation
agree

 

[Axscell]

agree
agree
agree

Agree with resurrection negation, or regen negation?
Agree with blanket immunity term or listing down as possibly?

Please be a little more specific.

 

[Accelerate420]

@XDragnoir , @Zensum , @Accelerate420
Am I correct to assume that you guys are fine with the proposed AP/Tier rating?

To organize things, and help this move along,
Current points of contention:
1. Regeneration negation

2. Infinite speed

3. Immunity/Resistance to various forms of internal damage


Changes to Initial Proposals:
1. Removal of creation
2. Changing SoL speed to Sub-Relativistic
3. Removal of Death Manipulation via Fate Manipulation

Did I miss anything?

The proposed rating is good, just not the Hyperversal part as it stands.

As for the other changes, I disagree with infinite speed and Regen/Ressurection, but I'm alright with putting down possibly for the immunities.

 

[Axscell]

Anyone know of any staff who would interested in this thread (other than DT, since they seem to be off the site currently)?

 

[XDragnoir]

I think there's not much we can do other than wait.

 

[Churronzon]

Is this the Afterward that he said in the event that the group killed Othinus there would be no one left to remake the world?
Yea you don't get specific stated resistances for fighting someone offscreen/hypothetically or from vague implication, we went through this extensively with staff a while back with True Gremlin.

It's not the same case as True Gremlin at all.

If our arguments were along the lines of "Othinus threw a punch at Alice and Alice survived, so that means Alice can survive Othinus' reality warping", that would of course not work for very obvious reasons and is the reason why magic gods don't currently resist each other's reality warping since they never demonstrated using it on each other.

Othinus however, does use her reality warping on Alice and the rest of the transcendents, which is later followed by a WoG stating they could have survived. According to the author, Alice isn't surviving a punch, she's surviving reality warping. (The 'dark space' being the biproduct of destroying the world.)

Occam's Razor? With how many of them and how much the Transcendents vary from each other + Alice, you have exactly 0 idea how a hypothetical fight would go down or how they would manage to kill Othinus. Immunity to internal damage is wholly irrelevant to this conversation and to a character who fights normally by manipulating the external world...
You're missing the broad point about policy, on the True Gremlin discussion if you recall it was stated by staff:
1) Just because characters can explicitly fight each other doesn't mean they get stated resistances to each others powers.
2) There are more ways to circumvent a power than resistances. So stated resistance shouldn't be given due to vague implications.
3) Stated resistances are only given if a character shows it on-screen or on-panel. Not even if it's implied, because there could be a number of unknown factors at work.
4) There could always be PIS. Characters not using extremely powerful abilities when they really should is common in fiction.

I agree that immunity to internal damage is a poor reason when reality warping targets much much more than just internals, and I posited my own reason without knowing this discussion was even occurring here.
1) I explained why that's not the case above. They're not just fighting each other offscreen, they're surviving reality warping if you value WoG.
2) Point 2 has merit, so I posit a possibly rating. The end result is still however the survival of reality warping.
3) Same as #2. Possibly conditionals exist.
4) I see where you're coming from and yes it is extremely common in Toaru, however, this is fortunately not the case this time. Othinus is explicitly using Gungnir to kill them all and then transcendents are stated as being capable of surviving it if they used a specific card available to them.

 

[Zensum]

It's not the same case as True Gremlin at all.

If our arguments were along the lines of "Othinus threw a punch at Alice and Alice survived, so that means Alice can survive Othinus' reality warping", that would of course not work for very obvious reasons and is the reason why magic gods don't currently resist each other's reality warping since they never used it on each other.

Othinus however, does use her reality warping on Alice and the rest of the transcendents, which is later followed by a WoG stating they could have survived. According to the author, Alice isn't surviving a punch, she's surviving reality warping. (The 'dark space' being the biproduct of destroying the world.)

Missing my point. To reiterate:
1) This WoG scenario never occurred, its a hypothetical, we don't see it happen 'onscreen' in the novel either.
2) The WoG refers to Transcendents + Alice as a group, that's like what 30+ characters with wildly different abilities, and it doesn't actually tell us the method they would use to survive. This doesn't prove resistance. It could be a myriad of things. It makes it more vague because they were canonically killed by it.
The throw a punch analogy doesn't work:
I.E: Othinus says a fight involving a Magic God that doesn't destroy the world/lead to a confrontation in that pitch-black space would be abnormal. That's not enough for resistances based on standards.

I agree that immunity to internal damage is a poor reason when reality warping targets much much more than just internals, which is why I posited my own reason without knowing this discussion was even occurring here.
1) I explained why that's not the case above. They're not just fighting each other offscreen, they're surviving reality warping if you value WoG.
2) Point 2 has merit, so I posit a possibly rating. The end result is still however the survival of reality warping.
3) Same as #2. Possibly conditionals exist.
4) I see where you're coming from and yes it is extremely common in Toaru, however, this is fortunately not the case this time. Othinus is explicitly using Gungnir to kill them all and then transcendents are stated as being capable of surviving it if they used a specific card available to them.

Your CRT just seems to be about surviving Gungnir throw because the lance's parameters don't target them in Risk 4? If I agreed with that line of arg, I personally wouldn't see that as a resistance if they are just being 'whitelisted' and not reality warped in the first place.
1. Like above, WoG doesn't give us a reasoning, so we can't jump to "resistance".
2/3. It's really a standard discussion. These points are just broad reasonings for why an explicit resistance can't be added. For a "possibly" for this line of argument, we'd need mod input imo which is why we were waiting.
4. She's not using Gungnir throw at the end of NT8. General MG phase manipulation is used.

 

[Churronzon]

Missing my point. To reiterate:
1) This WoG scenario never occurred, its a hypothetical, we don't see it happen 'onscreen' in the novel either.
2) The WoG refers to Transcendents + Alice as a group, that's like what 30+ characters with wildly different abilities, and it doesn't actually tell us the method they would use to survive. This doesn't prove resistance. It could be a myriad of things. It makes it more vague because they were canonically killed by it.

1) Yah it didn't. That's why it's a WoG and not a feat. If you think the author is wrong then just say so and provide counterevidence to the author's claims to invoke "Death of the Author".
2) Nah, I know it seems counterintuitive, but the method of what confirmed to have killed them ironically helps them since it removes doubt on what the author is stating they would be capable of surviving if they weren't so lax to pull out their one card.

And we know the one thing all of the 30+ transcendents have in common is fulfilling Gungnir's requirements via releasing their seals, while simultaneously not fulfilling it in their base forms.

The throw a punch analogy doesn't work:
I.E: Othinus says a fight involving a Magic God that doesn't destroy the world/lead to a confrontation in that pitch-black space would be abnormal. That's not enough for resistances based on standards.

I wasn't around to follow the discussion when people tried to give magic gods a resistance in a bygone age of outdated standards. Do you know if they tried to attach a possibly rating?
The benefit Alice's case has is that it's unquestionable what it is that killed the transcendents while the fight between Magic Gods doesn't require phase manipulation to destroy the world. In fact, their very presence causes that even before they can attempt to overlay a phase.

Regardless, I believe it should be handled in a case-by-case basis since the circumstances are different.

Your CRT just seems to be about surviving Gungnir throw because the lance's parameters don't target them in Risk 4? If I agreed with that line of arg, I personally wouldn't see that as a resistance if they are just being 'whitelisted' and not reality warped in the first place.

No I don't see Gungnir as choosing to ignore anyone that leaves the territory of humanity; that'd serve no purpose. Narration would've described it as a weakness of Gungnir rather than as something impressive for anyone who looks to oppose and survive it. I see it more as, because the transcendents left the category of humanity, they are capable of withstanding the esoteric changes to the phases.

You'd likewise have to prove that they're being whitelisted instead of resisting it. That's why a possibly rating is so great here, if it can be either or. The note could even explain that it's either a resistance or a weakness of Gungnir if it comes to it.

1. Like above, WoG doesn't give us a reasoning, so we can't jump to "resistance".
2/3. It's really a standard discussion. These points are just broad reasonings for why an explicit resistance can't be added. For a "possibly" for this line of argument, we'd need mod input imo which is why we were waiting.

alright

4. She's not using Gungnir throw at the end of NT8. General MG phase manipulation is used.

The instance pictured here utilizes Gungnir when creating a pile of rubble with the manipulation of the phases and thus carries the anti-humanity aspect.

Magic God Othinus had the ability to create, so she was technically not destroying
anything. This may have been a change brought about by adding a new phase into the
world. Nevertheless, it was blatantly obvious what the scene before Kamijou’s eyes would
produce. It was the same as referring to the utter destruction of a luxurious palace as
“creating a pile of rubble”. This was undeniably a torrent of destruction.

[...]

Most likely, no one could have escaped that lance when attacked head on. No matter what
form of defense or evasion they attempted, they would have had no hope of surviving.
That attack had been given the parameter of “no human can oppose it”. Unless one left
the territory of man, one would be smashed to pieces.

Edit: Fixed image link

 

[Zensum]

1) Yah it didn't. That's why it's a WoG and not a feat. If you think the author is wrong then just say so and provide counterevidence to the author's claims to invoke "Death of the Author".
2) Nah, I know it seems counterintuitive, but the method of what confirmed to have killed them ironically helps them since it removes doubt on what the author is stating they would be capable of surviving if they weren't so lax to pull out their one card.

And we know the one thing all of the 30+ transcendents have in common is fulfilling Gungnir's requirements via releasing their seals, while simultaneously not fulfilling it in their base forms.

1) I didn't say he was wrong, I said it did not occur in the novel. This was in relation to "shown onscreen" in my OG post.
2) To reiterate, we neither have any idea what the group would use to survive destruction or how they would defeat Othinus, other than it is possible based on WoG. "One card" isn't very specific and it refers to the previous 2 sentences on how they are maxed for destruction, but lack in the other areas. It's followed up in the next Afterword where we see they don't necessarily have the defense to survive their own offense.

Gungnir throw wasn't used to destroy the world, general Magic God Phase manipulation was, so I don't see the relevance of this Risk 4 argumentation.

I wasn't around to follow the discussion when people tried to give magic gods a resistance in a bygone age of outdated standards. Do you know if they tried to attach a possibly rating?
The benefit Alice's case has is that it's unquestionable what it is that killed the transcendents while the fight between Magic Gods doesn't require phase manipulation to destroy the world. In fact, their very presence causes that even before they can attempt to overlay a phase.

Regardless, I believe it should be handled in a case-by-case basis since the circumstances are different.

The 4 points you responded to came from DontTalk, bureaucrats and admins, we're waiting for mod input so if you think these standards are outdated then they can let us know about this too. People mentioned possibly, but only the note in the Notable Attack & Techniques section was allowed.

Sure, but Othinus tells us if another Magic God existed in the world in NT9 they would have been capable of interfering with her billions of hells and High Priest talks of conflicts from Magic Gods over overwriting each others world, regardless the debate ended up as "how do we know what they used to counter if it wasn't onscreen", not "how do we know they used their abilities period."

No I don't see Gungnir as choosing to ignore anyone that leaves the territory of humanity; that'd serve no purpose. Narration would've described it as a weakness of Gungnir rather than as something impressive for anyone who looks to oppose and survive it. I see it more as, because the transcendents left the category of humanity, they are capable of withstanding the esoteric changes to the phases.

You'd likewise have to prove that they're being whitelisted instead of resisting it. That's why a possibly rating is so great here, if it can be either or. The note could even explain that it's either a resistance or a weakness of Gungnir if it comes to it.

The narration tells us flatly with examples, the lance's magic explicitly has an "anti-human" parameter and unless one left that box they would be destroyed. That's just what Gungnir throw does.

Spoiler: NT_Volume09_Chapter04_Part7

Most likely, no one could have escaped that lance when attacked head on. No matter what form of defense or evasion they attempted, they would have had no hope of surviving. That attack had been given the parameter of “no human can oppose it”. Unless one left the territory of man, one would be smashed to pieces. Not even Fiamma of the Right or Ollerus could have done anything when faced with it.

The instance pictured here utilizes Gungnir when creating a pile of rubble with the manipulation of the phases and thus carries the anti-humanity aspect.

4) Your link doesn't work, but I'm assuming it's the only illustration of it.
No that's not correct, Gungnir is explicitly a throwing spear, which is the 1/5 property along with its 5th property 'destroy all human symbols' that carries the "anti-human" parameter in it's Phase attack. They are numbered and listed out for us.
Gungnir isn't thrown in NT8.

 

[Churronzon]

1) I didn't say he was wrong, I said it did not occur in the novel. This was in relation to "shown onscreen" in my OG post.

I wanted to make sure we were on the same page / agreeing with the author that they'd be able to act after the destruction of the world. Can't really continue if we disagree on that part.

2) To reiterate, we neither have any idea what the group would use to survive destruction or how they would defeat Othinus, other than it is possible based on WoG. "One card" isn't very specific and it refers to the previous 2 sentences on how they are maxed for destruction, but lack in the other areas. It's followed up in the next Afterword where we see they don't necessarily have the defense to survive their own offense.

Sorry if I missed it or forgot, but did you ever posit a scenario for how they could survive Othinus' destruction that wouldn't grant them a resistance, outside of being considered whitelisted in the hypothetical I provided?

The 4 points you responded to came from DontTalk, bureaucrats and admins, we're waiting for mod input so if you think these standards are outdated then they can let us know about this too. People mentioned possibly, but only the note in the Notable Attack & Techniques section was allowed.

I found the thread where it seems some were willing to agree with LazyHunter's possibly proposal and one staff member (or maybe they were already retired?) had even suggested it themselves, but I didn't see anyone respond or refute it at all prior to having it fully rejected. It just stopped being a point of discussion. A possibly conditional could very well get rejected in this thread, but I'd hope to see a reason this time at least.

The narration tells us flatly with examples, the lance's magic explicitly has an "anti-human" parameter and unless one left that box they would be destroyed. That's just what Gungnir throw does.

No that's not correct, Gungnir is explicitly a throwing spear, which is the 1/5 property along with its 5th property 'destroy all human symbols' that carries the "anti-human" parameter in it's Phase attack. They are numbered and listed out for us.
Gungnir isn't thrown in NT8.

I'm going to humor the distinction you've made here, but we gotta get a better name for it fr. If I'm following you correctly you're saying the transcendents were not killed by the STRONG GUNGNIR THROW that manipulates the phases and whose parameters the transcendents can select to fulfill, but rather the phase manip that manipulates the phases?

 

[Zensum]

I wanted to make sure we were on the same page / agreeing with the author that they'd be able to act after the destruction of the world. Can't really continue if we disagree on that part.

I agree that Kamachi says it's possible.

Sorry if I missed it or forgot, but did you ever posit a scenario for how they could survive Othinus' destruction that wouldn't grant them a resistance, outside of being considered whitelisted in the hypothetical I provided?

Any of the unnamed Transcendents having an ability that's useful in some way against Phase Manipulation.
Sprengel says Transcendent specialties vary so much there may have been one that could easily hard counter Kingsford.
LAIW being used, Kamachi's statement indicates they were aware of Othinus beforehand, so they could prepare in any manner of ways.

I found the thread where it seems some were willing to agree with LazyHunter's possibly proposal and one staff member (or maybe they were already retired?) had even suggested it themselves, but I didn't see anyone respond or refute it at all prior to having it fully rejected. It just stopped being a point of discussion. A possibly conditional could very well get rejected in this thread, but I'd hope to see a reason this time at least.

Specific counter scenarios didn't need refutation because of site policy and LH wasn't arguing for a 'possibly' rating he was saying they could possibly have a resistance or it could just as possibly be X other things.
Maybe it's different now, we asked for input here, but no response other than Qaws so far. Maybe DT will comment since he's starting to get active again.

I'm going to humor the distinction you've made here, but we gotta get a better name for it fr. If I'm following you correctly you're saying the transcendents were not killed by the STRONG GUNGNIR THROW that manipulates the phases and whose parameters the transcendents can select to fulfill, but rather the phase manip that manipulates the phases?

You could just say Gungnir. Correct.