Android 18 during the ToP

[LordTracer]

I know 3-A 18 has been discussed here before, but I don't think I've seen this brought up before. 18 effortlessly threw away Tupper, who was previously overwhelming base Goku. This adds on to her defeating Giant Ribrianne, who was (in a lesser form) contending with base Goku and Vegeta. As such, I believe ToP 18 and those who scale to her should be 3-A, or at the very least: 4-B, since that's what suppressed Goku and Vegeta seem to be considered here.

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask the staff members listed in the Dragon Ball verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List to comment here.

 

[Dark649]

Neutral about the whole thing, but DBS [its been 4 years after was announced] was not made with the word scaling in mind unlike the prev. series and relevant pieces below was lebelled as PIS/Outliers/The far helding back arguments:

If the supposed narrative of the series is followed, after BoG Goku absorbed the power of his god form, he's grown in power since then so much that if even if far supressing himself he would be still be 3-A / Low 2-C due the massive gap, as such everyone that tried to contend with him scales: BoG Base to SSG Goku, RoF to U6 Base to SSB Goku and Vegeta, RoF Final and Golden Frieza, U6 Piccolo, U6 to GB Gohan, U6: Botamo, All Forms Frost, Cabba and Hit, Copy Vegeta, Watagash, Zamasu, Goku Black, Future Trunks and Initial Fusion Zamasu, and then there's Krillin recovering his latent power.

In the next saga after the Goku Black one there's Golden Frieza overpowering Sidra destruction energy and ToP Base Goku resisting it for a period of time before being saved, which was viewed as possibly Low 2-C here since a far casual Sidra would be here due to the massive gap of the tier. Since here there's stuff like Roshi fighting Goku and requiring him to use the kamehameha to take him out, Krillin fighting Gohan and then Goku went SS to SSB against him culminating with 18 deflecting his kamehameha and that everyone nearly fought with eachother in the tournament: Everyone in the Exibition Match, Almost everyone in the Tournament of Power [including all the ones mentioned by the OP], The Trio in the Broly Arc. S.Arale, G.Zamasu and SSB Vegito [these three might be above ToP Base Goku] would be possibly Low 2-C [weakest] to at least Low 2-C [strongest like FP. Jiren].

Or alternatively everyone above is just possibly Low 2-C to Low 2-C later on since a far suppressed Beerus against Goku in the BoG and CV Arcs might be still on there like Sidra. Lastly Shisami might be higher since he could have trained and grabbed RoF Base Goha with a bearhug, forcing him to power up.

 

[LordTracer]

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at, are you just saying Super's scaling is nonsensical?

Why would a suppressed Goku still be 3-A? In DBS, Goku has shown that he can suppress himself down to the point where bullets scrape his skin, the people who've fought a suppressed Goku (First Form Frost, Botamo, Trio de Dangers, etc) could be less than 3-A.

Roshi seems to almost consistently scale to base Goku, IMO. Krillin stated that Gohan was suppressed against him, and SSB Goku was also clearly suppressed as Krillin was later shown to be weaker/comparable to base Goku level opponents, and he was one-shot by Final Form Frost, who was nearly SSJ Goku level.

Are you suggesting that everyone who'd scale to BoG Goku is Low 2-C? Also Shisami should logically be higher, as RoF Gohan is 4-B.

 

[Dark649]

Yes. Goku can supress himself to 10-C if he can, he wanted to make more Krillin more confident but him going SS to SSB against him was unneeded and their beam clash was deflected by 18, which Krillin sparred before the ToP. That's what the series shows, also in the ToP Krillin fought opponents that harmed 18 and there's no reasons to assume that ToP Krillin and the others are far far below Roshi of all people, again i'm neutral about the whole thing.

 

[LordTracer]

Remember, this is DBS Goku. He does a lot of unnecessary things, especially in the ToP. Going Blue for the Final Kamehameha against the Trio de Dangers, who he was handling just fine in a suppressed base form. Showing off SSJ3 to Caulifla and Kale, instead of going straight to God. Going Blue to take out Ribrianne, who he was matching fine in his base form. Goku was 100% suppressed when Krillin matched him, and 18 and Gohan both said Krillin had zero chance against a fully powered Goku Blue. Hell, Krillin was only pressuring base Goku with attacks that would catch him off guard. 18 kicking away the beam clash can also be chalked up to Goku holding back. Krillin managed to fight Shosa and Majora, yes, however both of them were only able to harm an off-guard 18, so he really doesn't scale to her. Roshi has the most consistent 3-A scaling out of all the humans, and Goku did say Roshi had been hiding his power, I don't think it would be out of the question to say Roshi is way beyond Krillin and Tien. If you're neutral on 3-A 18, then whatever, I'll just wait for others' input.

 

[GyroNutz]

Who would Roshi actually scale to, 3-A wise? Frost said the only reason why he struggled against Roshi (not counting Mafuba) was because he was pulling his punches so as not to kill him.

 

[LordTracer]

Base Goku, Ganos (who clashed with base Goku, and Roshi thought would soon be able to beat Goku), and still Frost. Yeah, Frost was holding back, but Roshi was also heavily fatigued and injured when he was pressuring Frost.

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe to this thread due to time constraints. You can send me a message later if you need help.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Technically yes, most of the aftermentioned characters scale to base Goku/Vegeta. As for if they are outliers, I find that to be subjective on whether it is or not, especially since many of these guys only have one or two fights to go off of including whatever one scales them up, so using outlier as an argument not to upgrade is questionable imo.

 

[AKM sama]

This was also brought up tho. I am against 18 being 3-A.

 

[LordTracer]

Why?

 

[AKM sama]

Because of the reasons that are already discussed multiple times on multiple threads.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Base Goku is always holding back and toying around with all the fodder characters, and 18 only stomped the underdogs. And she herself was portrayed as an underdog throughout the tournament and often needed to be rescued by her brother. While she's much stronger than Krillin for sure, she's no where near the power Base Goku or Base Vegeta.

 

[LordTracer]

Looking back at older threads, the only reasoning against 3-A 18 that I can see is outliers or that she's comparable to Krillin (which makes no sense as Krillin could only contend with people that caught 18 off guard).

If Goku was suppressed against Tupper, wouldn't he have been able to just transform/stop suppressing himself and overpower him? 18 pretty much stomped Ribrianne, who was matching base Vegeta (and Vegeta doesn't screw around as much as Goku). Also Frost, who was nearly SSJ Vegeta level (and made Hit get serious for a brief moment), decided to run instead of actually fighting 18. How is getting rescued by Blue level 17 a strike against 18?