• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Archetype Earth 1-A thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
3,346
1,911
Credit to @Grand_Saver_Ritsuka and grindsetgang for providing me with scans and such.

First, in MBAA, a fight between arcueid and shiki occurs.
Ryougi explicitly states that Void is the one urging her to do this instinctively and is behind all of this.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039008145495838740/1039023816325738557/1.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039008145495838740/1039023815965016154/7.png
the "I" here is especially important. Void is generally referred to as "Ryougi Shiki" with quotation marks.

the counter arguments for this not being Void all fall flat. the arguments are that this Ryougi is unaware of Void's existence and that she is likely referring to SHIKI, her other personality. one: this takes place after KnK's main story, meaning Ryougi could've found out about Void. Kokuto may have told her even since he met Void. two: SHIKI mentally died and no longer exist at this point. three: SHIKI has no cosmic plans or anything and has no idea what Archetype-Earth or a ***** Type is.


Archetype has some level of a connection to the Root and the same origin as her. we know Archetype has a connection to the Root for several reasons.

one: Nasu states she was a True Ancestor born from nothingness (likely referring to being born from the Root like Void) and that there are secrets about her we do not know even now. Arceuid also shared a similar trait of lacking a personality or ego of her own, which is confirmed in void’s case to be because of her root connection.

Nasu: Any True Ancestor aside from the very first one is artificial in some way or another. Arcueid is an Ancestor who was created even though there was really no need for her. Whenever another True Ancestor can be created, the other Ancestors get together and say "Well, things are like this right now, so we need someone who can take this role" and then mold the new one. Arcueid was originated from nothingness -- a product to realized the pointless goal of "the strongest True Ancestor"... there are a few other secrets, but... (Laughs)

Editor: Seems like it is best if we just stop here. (Laughs) - TYPE-MOON Long Interview - Kanwa Tsukihime - "The True Ancestor Arcueid"


Archetype is also stated to have inherited Type-Moon's abilities, which would include his Mystic Eyes that are on the level of MEoDP, which are eyes stemming directly from the Root.

For just a second, it is possible to catch a glimpse of the vampire princess Arcueid’s true power. The phantom that appears behind her back is her original form. Its appearance, abilities, and very thoughts could be called the Crimson Moon.


Further, beyond Jewel lies “Rainbow.” These ultimate mystic eyes, which blend and mix all seven colors of the rainbow like a kaleidoscope, are considered to be the mark of the King of the Moon. - Fate/Side Material - Encyclopedia: Noble Colour [Others], p.068


Yes, I heard someone talking about the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception yesterday. The "Rainbow" ranked Mystic Eyes that can impose death to those it sees equally.”


Archetype has also used the Second Magic to summon the Crimson Moon ahead of the appointed time to revert Wallachia to his original state as a DA. this wasn't even a fully manifested Archetype. you can tell she has just partially manifested, as she does not donned Arcueid's old appearance and is limited due to this according to Wallachia.

1.jpg


2.jpg


3.jpg


4.jpg

5.jpg

Ryougi says she is the same kind of person and that is undeniable proof that Archetype is connected to the Root. i mean what else could they have in common? being female? that's half of the population. Ryougi is also a human and Archetype is a True Ancestor/Ultimate One. their only common trait is their connection to the Root.
This would also be in line with several wog statements putting arcueid over ryougi, such as this
A: Magical Amber, Neco Arc, and Tiger. Well, not really.
Seriously, it's Arcueid, "Ryougi Shiki", and primordial demons.(Not counting Servants)
シエルルートが特別なんですよ。TYPE-MOON伝奇の最強格を敵に回したらどうなるかを,絵として見せなくてはならなかったので。残りのルートがあれ以上派手になることはありません。……ないと……思います……。
basically this says arcueid is the strongest in tm history.

I want to portray this sequence (Arc VS Roa), up until the last moment, to the best of my ability. I’ll really drive home her being the strongest being in the setting of Tsukihime and Mahoutsukai no Yoru.
While the events of tsukihime could not exist in the world of knk, the events of mahoyo could have very well occurred in knk.
Ryougi shiki’s lore and powerset have largely been unchanged since the release of knk, so there is little room for contradiction.

when Archetype talks to Ryougi, going off what she is saying you can tell she is talking directly to Void through Ryougi. she knows who Void is and why she has come, referring to her as the Will of the Heavens, yet is confident in defeating her still. the fight happens off-screen of course. though the fight itself is hyped. this is significant because one: we know normal Ryougi doesn't stand a chance in hell against Archetype. Archetype's no concept of death alone renders her MEoDP useless and she massively outstats her in general. so it's clear Void took over Ryougi after the scene of Archetype talking ended. there is absolutely no reason to hype a fight with Archetype Vs. someone she would curbstomp. this means they were hyping Void Vs. Archetype. and this means they are in the same league as each other.
this is also a side thing that should be considered very minor in the grand scheme of things, but I feel like mentioning it. in versus mode if you beat Archetype with Ryougi/Void (Void comes out in her Last Arc), Ryougi has no special win quote with Archetype. however if you defeat Ryougi with Archetype, Archetype has a special win quote for their fight specifically. if we count this as anything, that would imply Archetype was the winner of their fight since she's the only one with a special quote. not only that, but she is clearly speaking to Void yet again based off what she is saying.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039008145495838740/1039024889748787252/WA.png

"We both chose the wrong time to wake up."


clearly she's not referring to normal Ryougi waking up from an afternoon nap. she's referring to Void waking up and taking over, as she does on rare occasions. this line up in parallel with Archetype-Earth being the dormant side of Arcueid that only wakes up on rare occasion. she then says "For now, quietly stay submerged into dreams of nothingness." Void stays inside Ryougi looking inward at the Root sleeping in a dreamlike state. And the Root is referred to as nothingness several times (which really is referring to how its a swirling mass of chaos with no definable traits because of how jumbled up and random it is mostly).
Combine all this shit with the number of times nasu says arcueid is strongest, and you get it.


Now, to debunk void shiki being completely omnipotent.
—Your wish, Kokutou. Tell me it. I can grant most human wishes. And Shiki seems to like you, so - what's mine by right is yours.
note how she says most and not ANY.
—Ordinarily a creature whose being is poured out straight from " " simply dies in its mother's womb. That was my case. But the Ryougi clan possessed a technique for keeping such a thing alive. - Kara no Kyoukai: Epilogue
if she was completely omnipotent she would be able to sustain her own existence without help, since it would exist in all points of time.

Also, this couldnt be self-suggestion, as shiki needs a sword, and even a shiki with self suggestion amps cannot beat a;e.
Plus, as in the knk manga, self suggestion changes her personality to begin with.
Additional Notes:
Magic can only be used by individuals that have opened a path to the Root ( although there can only be one magician per magic, as even if other people re-trace the same steps, they will not be able to gain magic, or people with root fuckery hax.)

in ryougis conversation in mbaacc, arcueid talks of the earth separating from the roots authority, and becoming a separate entity.
In order to resist the authority of something in the nasuverse, you need comparable authority, which is only possible if Arc has a connection to the root.


For these reasons, I wish to upgrade Arcueid's A;E key to 1-A.

tl;dr:




A fight between Arcueid and Shiki occurs in the MBAA game, with Void being the one urging Shiki to participate.
Shiki's arrival would have not been possible without void, as this Shiki exists in a completely different universe, and does not possess the second magic to hop parallel worlds.
Counter-arguments suggesting this is not Void are invalid due to the timing of the event, the death of Shiki's other personality, SHIKI, and ShikiI's lack of knowledge about the cosmic plans or Archetype-Earth.
Self-suggestion is not possible, due to archetype being better than Shiki in pretty much everything stat-wise, and cannot be killed by the MEODP.
Archetype is connected to the Root, as per Nasu's statement that she is a True Ancestor born from nothingness (likely the Root), and shares characteristics with Void.
Archetype has inherited Type-Moon's abilities, including Mystic Eyes that may possibly be from the Root, due to sharing the same rank as the MEODP (Rainbow).
Archetype uses Second Magic to summon the Crimson Moon, further indicating her connection to the Root.
Shiki also calls arcueid a similar existence to herself.
There are numerous statements of Arcueid being the strongest in type-moon, and is constantly portrayed as the strongest in each work she appears in, with the only exceptions being when she is weakened in some way.
The fight between Archetype and Ryougi, in which Void likely took over, is hyped, indicating they are in the same league.
There is a special win quote for Archetype defeating Ryougi in a game, hinting at Archetype's victory and further communication with Void. Ryougi herself lacks such a quote, though.
The omnipotence of Void Shiki is debated, with her being able to grant most wishes, and her past inability to sustain her own existence without help from the ryougi family as evidence against it.
Ryougi's last arc in Melty, is identical to saber shiki's np in fgo, which is void shiki in the body of a servant.
There is an unique ability of individuals who have opened a path to the Root to use Magic, this and Arcueid discussing the ability to resist the Root's authority to separate the Earth's laws from it, implies her own connection to the Root.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As I've said before and I would say again; That was not Void Shiki fighting. If Void Shiki were to "fight," she wouldn't waste her time engaging in a physical battle. All she has to do is warp reality using her Root powers. Archetype is a being derived from the Root which means her very existence is meaningless to Void Shiki since every feat that is performed in the verse is meaningless to her as she stated in KnK epilogue. Saying Arc>Void is basically implying Arc>Root which sounds asinine.

Void Shiki only ever appeared in KnK epilogue and FGO (as Saber Shiki). She never appeared in Melty blood. The Shiki that fought Arc is literally just Shiki with Self-suggestion. The same Shiki that fought Souren Araya.

Therefore, I wholeheartedly disagree with the proposal.
 
As I've said before and I would say again; That was not Void Shiki fighting. If Void Shiki were to "fight," she wouldn't waste her time engaging in a physical battle. All she has to do is warp reality using her Root powers. Archetype is a being derived from the Root which means her very existence is meaningless to Void Shiki since every feat that is performed in the verse is meaningless to her as she stated in KnK epilogue. Saying Arc>Void is basically implying Arc>Root which sounds asinine.
did you like, ignore this part
Now, to debunk void shiki being completely omnipotent.
—Your wish, Kokutou. Tell me it. I can grant most human wishes. And Shiki seems to like you, so - what's mine by right is yours.
note how she says most and not ANY.
—Ordinarily a creature whose being is poured out straight from " " simply dies in its mother's womb. That was my case. But the Ryougi clan possessed a technique for keeping such a thing alive. - Kara no Kyoukai: Epilogue
if she was completely omnipotent she would be able to sustain her own existence without help, since it would exist in all points of time.
Void Shiki only ever appeared in KnK epilogue and FGO (as Saber Shiki). She never appeared in Melty blood. The Shiki that fought Arc is literally just Shiki with Self-suggestion. The same Shiki that fought Souren Araya.

Therefore, I wholeheartedly disagree with the proposal.
ryougi's last arc in mbaacc is the exist same as saber shiki's np in fgo. exact name, exact visuals, all of that.
 
did you like, ignore this part
I didnt ignore it. It just wasn't relevant enough for me to discuss. Void using the word "most" rather than "any" doesn't automatically disprove her being omnipotent. This is just using unnecessary semantics to prove a point. The holy grail for instance is always referred to as an omnipotent device but we know the word "omnipotence" is a little bit exaggerated for it since "nigh-omnipotence" is more logical. So according to your logic, the grail must be omnipotent because it isn't called "nigh-omnipotent?" Semantical.

As for her living/dying? Its more philosophical rather than literal. What the scan meant is that Void being derived from Root itself ceased to exist in the womb of Shiki's mom because obviously, trying to make the root your "Jinchūriki" is just against logical reasoning. It didn't die in a literal sense. Rather, it wasn't supposed to exist in a human' belly but the Ryougi family found a way to make it exist. This doesn't disprove anything.
ryougi's last arc in mbaacc is the exist same as saber shiki's np in fgo. exact name, exact visuals, all of that.
Saber Shiki is merely an avatar of Void Shiki. Like really, check Saber Shiki's profile rn on vsbw and you would know their difference despite being the same in a way. Also, the NP being the same thing and phrase doesn't really matter. Gilgamesh has always blabbered the same NP quotes in all versions. Does that make them all the same level?
 
I didnt ignore it. It just wasn't relevant enough for me to discuss. Void using the word "most" rather than "any" doesn't automatically disprove her being omnipotent.
except it does, its shiki saying she has a limit of some sort.
This is just using unnecessary semantics to prove a point. The holy grail for instance is always referred to as an omnipotent device but we know the word "omnipotence" is a little bit exaggerated for it since "nigh-omnipotence" is more logical. So according to your logic, the grail must be omnipotent because it isn't called "nigh-omnipotent?" Semantical.

the grail has nothing to do with shiki or this crt.
As for her living/dying? Its more philosophical rather than literal. What the scan meant is that Void being derived from Root itself ceased to exist in the womb of Shiki's mom because obviously, trying to make the root your "Jinchūriki" is just against logical reasoning. It didn't die in a literal sense. Rather, it wasn't supposed to exist in a human' belly but the Ryougi family found a way to make it exist. This doesn't disprove anything.
this is just an assumption, void straight up said shiki wouldn't have survived in the womb without intervetion/
Saber Shiki is merely an avatar of Void Shiki. Like really, check Saber Shiki's profile rn on vsbw and you would know their difference despite being the same in a way.
still the same being, helps my point all the less.
Also, the NP being the same thing and phrase doesn't really matter. Gilgamesh has always blabbered the same NP quotes in all versions. Does that make them all the same level?
not relevant, as gil doesn't have separate personalities.
 
None of those are explaining what you want.

In a couple sentences just explain what statistics you actually want changed.
I want archetype earth to be 1-A, as she is at or above shiki's level. I want ryougi shiki's page to remove all mentions of omnipotent, and replace it with nigh-omnipotent instead.
 
the "I" here is especially important. Void is generally referred to as "Ryougi Shiki" with quotation marks.
The "I" that is "watashi" instead of "ore" (for those that do not known, Ryougi Shiki uses both pronouns before the "death" of the so called male part, watashi is used by the female one, ore is used by the male part, later adopted by what Tohko calls something like a third personality, that would be equivalent to the female part that didn't die, but went into coma), and only has marks in the scan you gave, not having them in the video linked below... Even in speech form, there's absolutely no emphasis or anything like that to the "I" or personal pronoun part...
So... Original? The very scan you give differs from the translation that you give in the video...
 
I see way too much overuse of the word "Omnipotent" being thrown around and of course Void Shiki isn't as no one is even if they're 1-A or Tier 0 and what not.

However, the opposition is still making sense regardless that the form used isn't the version with the 1-A powers let alone actively using them against Arcueid based on how I am reading through the comments.
 
I see way too much overuse of the word "Omnipotent" being thrown around and of course Void Shiki isn't as no one is even if they're 1-A or Tier 0 and what not.
We're talking "omnipotent", as in her verse, and her profile uses the same wording.
However, the opposition is still making sense regardless that the form used isn't the version with the 1-A powers let alone actively using them against Arcueid based on how I am reading through the comments.
There's a big gaping issue with this, in which archetype earth outstat's and hax's everything in her arsenal. Her self suggestion is noted on her profile to be equal to shiki nanaya, which is leagues below a;e. she cant use the mystic eye's of death perception either, as arcueid in this form is completely immune. Literally nothing the regular shiki has is capable of putting a scratch
 
The "I" that is "watashi" instead of "ore" (for those that do not known, Ryougi Shiki uses both pronouns before the "death" of the so called male part, watashi is used by the female one, ore is used by the male part, later adopted by what Tohko calls something like a third personality, that would be equivalent to the female part that didn't die, but went into coma), and only has marks in the scan you gave, not having them in the video linked below... Even in speech form, there's absolutely no emphasis or anything like that to the "I" or personal pronoun part...
So... Original? The very scan you give differs from the translation that you give in the video...
i'd have to find a japanese copy of actress again current code, and look at Ryougis story from there. or if there arent any script differences, use the ps2 version
 
We're talking "omnipotent", as in her verse, and her profile uses the same wording.

There's a big gaping issue with this, in which archetype earth outstat's and hax's everything in her arsenal. Her self suggestion is noted on her profile to be equal to shiki nanaya, which is leagues below a;e. she cant use the mystic eye's of death perception either, as arcueid in this form is completely immune. Literally nothing the regular shiki has is capable of putting a scratch
even if this was somehow not valid, there are a total of 3 wog statements putting arcueid up as the top-dog of the verse. i've seen similar revisions get approved for less
 
The "I" that is "watashi" instead of "ore" (for those that do not known, Ryougi Shiki uses both pronouns before the "death" of the so called male part, watashi is used by the female one, ore is used by the male part, later adopted by what Tohko calls something like a third personality, that would be equivalent to the female part that didn't die, but went into coma), and only has marks in the scan you gave, not having them in the video linked below... Even in speech form, there's absolutely no emphasis or anything like that to the "I" or personal pronoun part...
Some additional evidence is that shiki came to the melty blood universe from another one, which would be in line with void "compelling" her to arrive, as she doesnt have the second magic.
 
even if this was somehow not valid, there are a total of 3 wog statements putting arcueid up as the top-dog of the verse. i've seen similar revisions get approved for less
this is also the same guy that said Void Shiki<Ciel and ORT>Arcueid.

also, just make one post instead of multiple
 
Void Shiki<Ciel and ORT>Arcueid.
He said ryougi shiki (3rd) personality, which could be referring to self suggestion shiki. also i never found a source for the second one.

Either way, he has been very consistent in portraying arcueid as the strongest in each work she appears in and the times she is not is because she's very clearly weakened.
 
nasu never refers to void shiki as anything else except ryougi shiki in quotes in media before this and since this, so I severely doubt this is talking about void.
 
put it into persective for a second, how could ryougi shiki fight a being that has not only immeasurable speed, but is immune to every single one of her attacks?
 
put it into persective for a second, how could ryougi shiki fight a being that has not only immeasurable speed, but is immune to every single one of her attacks?
Well, if she did fought and succeeds, or is said as if she had the chance of succeeding, the starting point would be to question the immeasurable speed and immunity to all her attacks.
 
Some additional evidence is that shiki came to the melty blood universe from another one, which would be in line with void "compelling" her to arrive, as she doesnt have the second magic.
White Len says she is "summoned"
She (Shiki) clearly wasn't the one doing said movement, as she is said to be waking up as if from a dream, a point she reiterates in her story arc IIRC.

Also, second magic/Zelretch/Kaleidoscope isn't the only way such thing could be done. Third/Cup of Heaven/Heaven's Feel, the oldest of Magics, could just as well be the case.
And, even if she doesn't have said magic, effects that mimick at least one of the features aren't exactly a thing that doesn't exist - Sasaki Kojirou explictly uses a feature of the second, Multi something yada yada Reflective Phenomena, or something like that, for his Tsubame Gaeshi.
 
Well, if she did fought and succeeds, or is said as if she had the chance of succeeding, the starting point would be to question the immeasurable speed and immunity to all her attacks.
shiki herself said she couldn't see any lines of death, which would be her only wincon, as arceuid has high godly regen ( it says low godly on the profile, but that's because people forgot about it). without her mystic eyes, shiki is just a really physically strong human, which is next to nothing against an ultimate one
 
White Len says she is "summoned"
ryougi corrects her, she said she isnt summoned by the counter force.
She (Shiki) clearly wasn't the one doing said movement, as she is said to be waking up as if from a dream, a point she reiterates in her story arc IIRC.
That proves my point even more, if shiki wasnt controlling her self then who was?
Also, second magic/Zelretch/Kaleidoscope isn't the only way such thing could be done. Third/Cup of Heaven/Heaven's Feel, the oldest of Magics, could just as well be the case.
good point. either way it isnt in ryougi's arsenal.
 
ryougi corrects her, she said she isnt summoned by the counter force.
In the video above, unless I'm missing something, she didn't.
That proves my point even more, if shiki wasnt controlling her self then who was?
good point. either way it isnt in ryougi's arsenal.
The problem is that it's technically not in Void Shiki arsenal either.
She can't actually change the World, per her words herself. She can only create a new world by literally destroying the past one completely.

So, it really can't be Void Shiki doing anything. It would be strange for Void Shiki to WILL anything, to begin with, but that could easily be plot-induced dumbness - the point is that, she shouldn't have the capacity. And it's never said it was she.

Ryougi Shiki (male, female, or female post-coma) NEVER refered to Void Shiki as herself - I believe you also talk about this, the fact is that Void Shiki is actually NEVER MENTIONED by them, in any way whatsoever. Not even Void Shiki did (thought of herself as "Shiki"), at least at first, even though she express she is glad Kokutou believes "she" to also be Shiki.

One of the infuriating things of Nasuverse is that many things aren't actually answered. As this case, or more broadly, Melty Blood "universe" in general is VERY AWKWARD. But for it to be Void Shiki is just non-sensical.
 
Last edited:
In the video above, unless I'm missing something, she didn't.
it should be adressed in the op, but here:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039008145495838740/1039023439824027769/4.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039008145495838740/1039023440230887504/5.png
The problem is that it's technically not in Void Shiki arsenal either.
She can't actually change the World, per her words herself. She can only create a new world by literally destroying the past one completely.
the second magic doesn't really change anything, you just hop from one world to the next, and can use mana from other worlds.
That helps my point more, as arcueid is part of the world (Gaia).
So, it really can't be Void Shiki doing anything. It would be strange for Void Shiki to WILL anything, to begin with, but that could easily be plot-induced dumbness - the point is that, she shouldn't have the capacity. And it's never said it was she.
Void has a personality, that is expressed quite clearly in her fgo self.
Ryougi Shiki (male, female, or female post-coma) NEVER refered to Void Shiki as herself - I believe you also talk about this, the fact is that Void Shiki is actually NEVER MENTIONED by them, in any way whatsoever. Not even Void Shiki did, at least at first, even though she express she is glad Kokutou believes "she" to also be Shiki.
thats because shiki isnt even aware of void in knk, mikiya could've easily told shiki about void. Though that's explain by the fact ryougi herself says this is the first time "herself" is urging her on.
One of the infuriating things of Nasuverse is that many things aren't actually answered. As this case, or more broadly, Melty Blood "universe" in general is VERY AWKWARD. But for it to be Void Shiki is just non-sensical.
its not non-sensical at all. who else is "herself" that is capable of hopping parrallel worlds to fight arcueid? ryougi doesnt even know who arcueid or archetype earth her.
 
She doesn't deny the summoned by (or, actually, AS a) the CF, she only says she's not there to do the destroy TATARI part... Which is reinforced by the fact she says that Aoko should be the one doing it.

the second magic doesn't really change anything, you just hop from one world to the next, and can use mana from other worlds.
That helps my point more, as arcueid is part of the world (Gaia).
Gaia isn't the World...
And Arcueid DEFINITELY isn't Gaia.

Void has a personality, that is expressed quite clearly in her fgo self.
Yet had only ever done two things - withdrawn from reality by creating Shiki and SHIKI, and talked to Kokotou because Shiki liked him a lot.

thats because shiki isnt even aware of void in knk, mikiya could've easily told shiki about void. Though that's explain by the fact ryougi herself says this is the first time "herself" is urging her on.
Problem is she says explictly "watashi", the female part of the dual personality created as Ryougi Shiki. So, that doesn't stand.

its not non-sensical at all. who else is "herself" that is capable of hopping parrallel worlds to fight arcueid? ryougi doesnt even know who arcueid or archetype earth her.
Not herself, again. It's not jibun, or something like that. She uses the personal pronoun "watashi", and that pronoun is literally tied to female Shiki, litrerally a plot point in the entire KNK.

Void has never been shown to be able to hop worlds, either... She herself says the only way she could do the changing the world is by destroying the old and creating a whole new other. There's absolutely never been anything that even hints at her being capable of Sliding - the technical Nasu term introduced in the game verse for Parallel Worlds movement.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top