Asgore vs Asriel and Chara, ft. SCP (But Its a Jojo Reference)

[TacticalNuke002]

There's a ton of old stuff lying around the basement of Asgore's castle, so for the annual spring cleaning drive, he decides to go there and incinerate all the trash. He goes to the basement and sees a weird black painting of a human woman and decides to make it the first thing to incinerate.

Asgore vs Under the Moon

Speed unequal.

Starting distance is 20 m.

No prior knowledge.

Asgore Dreemurr: 1 (Imaginym)

Under the Moo:

Thunder McQuee:

Who wins and why?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

How does Asgore not stomp here?

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Hmm, let's see.

Constantly summoning ghosts. Ghosts don't exactly attack, merely walk towards the target, so Asgore might not attack them. The ghosts will be people who Asgore knows have died, so they'll include young Asriel and Chara, possibly Toriel, Undyne etc. too, depending on the route.

Not to mention, Asgore doesn't exactly know the painting's doing it or that coming into physical contact with them is bad.

 

[Imaginym]

Reading about Under the Moon's abilities, it replicates the cause of death on those who touch the Memory Ghosts. But reading, Chara & Asriel died when Chara became terminally ill from consuming buttercups (I'm not sure if those would affect Asgore as they do humans.) then crossed the barrier with their souls fused (Sharing control of Asriel's body & carrying Chara's corpse.), and were killed by humans.

Supposing that was replicated for Asgore, would he get his SOUL fused with a human's, granting him insane power? Would he carry his own corpse? Would he be force fed butterscotch pie with buttercups in it?

 

[TacticalNuke002]

The humans killing them would be replicated since it was the ultimate fate for them.

Note: I didn't think their death was that convoluted.

The aftermath of the death, like decomposition, exhumation, autopsy etc. are also replicated btw.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Wait a second, does Asgore know exactly how they died? This is a big factor.

 

[Imaginym]

@TacticalNuke002: First off, apologies: I got events slightly wrong. Death did not occur by the humans/in the human village, technically.

https://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Asriel_Dreemurr#Main_Story

"The villagers assumed that the Asriel/Human fusion had attacked and killed the human child. The Asriel/Human fusion did not fight back but only fled. Lethally wounded, the Asriel/Human returned to the Underground and died. Once deceased, Asriel's body turned to dust, which spread across the garden in New Home."

So technically, Asriel's body with both his and Chara's SOULS in it died in the Underground, after re-entering through the barrier, which was after being attacked by humans.

Second off, the answer to if Asgore knows of how they died.... I'm not sure. Anyone got an Undertale text dump? Although, given that Asgore & Toriel were probably still together at this time, Asgore may have been at New Home to witness them die, but he may not have observed how & I'm unsure he got to hear their part of the story. Although, it is apparently why he started the war on humans.

Quoting the Wiki again:

"Later, just before the queen left, Alphys injected determinatio into one of the garden's golden flowers-- the first one to bloom after Asriel's death.[6] Initial experiments on the flower vessel proved unsuccessful, and Alphys returned it to Asgore.[7] Once Alphys replanted the vessel, Flowey awoke within the garden."

To paraphrase, Asriel (A monster, which in Undertale, become dust when they die.) got his dust on the garden, which Alphys (Royal scientist) took a flower from, injected Determination into (to no effect.), & gave it back to Asgore, replanting it. Thus, Flowey was born, who is sort of Asriel.

It may also be worth considering Alphys's entries the UT Wiki cites:

1. Ôåæ ENTRY NUMBER 8: I've chosen a candidate. I haven't told ASGORE yet, because I want to surprise him with it... In the center of his garden, there's something special. The first golden flower, that grew before all the others. The flower from the outside world. It appeared just before the queen left. I wonder... What happens when something without a SOUL gains the will to live?
2. Ôåæ ENTRY NUMBER 15: Seems like this research was a dead end... But at least we got a happy ending out of it...? I sent the SOULS and the vessel back to ASGORE. And I called all of the families and told them everyone's alive. I'll send everyone back tomorrow. : )

"Everyone" probably refers to Alphys's subjects for Determination experiments, not Chara & Asriel, IIRC.

Now the answer gets weird: Remember Flowey, who is technically Asriel also? As it turns out, thanks to the Determination he was injected with, he could SAVE and LOAD. His first time as a flower, eventually, Asgore found Flowey/Asriel, who explained everything that happened to him, but Flowey soon realized he couldn't feel any emotion/compassion for anyone, ran away, decided to commit suicide, but as he was dying felt apprehensive, & managed to LOAD his SAVE for the first time, to back at the garden.

TL;DR - In THAT timeline, Flowey told Asgore all about a lot of what happened, so Asgore of that timeline would know plenty. But that's probably not the main timeline Asgore.

 

[Imaginym]

So, with that lore dump posted, just gonna bring up another issue.

You said: "The aftermath of the death, like decomposition, exhumation, autopsy etc. are also replicated btw."

As I detailed above, Chara's SOUL was in Asriel's body at the time of Asriel's death.

"In the Genocide Route, Chara says that the protagonist's "determination" and "human soul" awakened them from death. There is evidence that some narration, as well as descriptions of certain actions and events, is by Chara themself. However, the narrator throughout the entirety of Undertale is up to speculation."

So it's ambiguous if Chara died at that time; They "awakened" from death, but only much later, when Frisk or the protagonist arrived, & their SOUL may still have been around. Nonetheless, Chara's body was put in a coffin, so Asgore probably considers him dead.

The problem is the aftermath of Asriel's death, because it involves him turning into Flowey. (Asriel dies, turns to dust, dust falls on garden, flower from garden is taken to lab, injected with Determination, replanted in garden, & Determination+Asriel's dust+flower makes Flowey.)

If that gets replicated here, do we get an Asgore-Flowey?

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Replicated as in what Asgore thinks happened. Which needn't be accurate to what the true events are. Its a memory ghost after all.

For instance, when Rohan's ancestors' ghosts touched him, their deaths weren't replicated but he started to age rapidly and decompose. This was based on Rohan's default assumption of human death that they died of old age and decomposed afterwards (which is the natural way of thinking). All the ghosts wouldn't have died of old age surely, but since they are distant relatives that Rohan knows vaguely at best, the cause of death for them was assumed to be old age by default.

So, what Asgore thinks caused their deaths is what'll happen to him if he touches them. And if he doesn't know, he'll decompose on touching Chara's ghost and turn to dust if Asriel.

 

[Imaginym]

Not that important, but turning to dust is the default result of death for Undertale monsters; They are made of magic, at least physically. Also, according to the writer of a book in-universe, monster SOULs are made of love, hope & compassion.

As for what Asgore thinks happened, that's difficult to discern. I suppose it could be supposed he knows that Asriel was attacked by a village of humans, walked back home, & then collapsed in the garden, dying & turning to dust. But it's unclear if he saw it.

In the case of Chara, Chara consumed buttercups, getting poisoned. They wanted to see the flowers from their village, but couldn't, and died. Then, as monsters can do so, Asriel absorbed Chara's SOUL, & carried the corpse to said village.

As far as Asgore would know, Chara died of buttercup poisoning. But it may not be as effective on Asgore.

When we tried to make butterscotch pie for Dad, right? The recipe asked for cups of butter... But we accidentally put in buttercups instead. Yeah! Those flowers got him really sick. I felt so bad. We made Mom really upset.

He got sick, but he got better, albeit, at home, after an unknown amount of time. Would Asgore fall (terminally) ill of buttercup poisoning if he touched Chara's memory ghost? Don't diseases take a while to kill?

And if Asgore touches Asriel's memory ghost, thinking Asriel was killed by humans, what happens then?

UT humans are much stronger than Monsters, while even Stand-user humans in Jojo aren't very close to "Tier: At least 7-C, likely far higher" Would the durability negation apply if its summons attacked?

Supposing touching a Memory Ghost causes decomposition, does the decomposition only occur while in contact?

 

[Imaginym]

Also, Asgore is a Boss Monster, meaning his SOUL can persist for a few moments after death , & he doesn't age , which could be relevant, supposing he can attacking during those moments. I forget which he needs, though.

Being unaging may also protect him from some means of Under the Moon's assault.

1. Ôåæ "There is one exception to the rules above: A certain type of monster, the "boss" monster. Due to its life cycle, it possesses an incredibly strong soul for a monster. This soul can remain stable after death, if only for a few moments." - Monster History part 8
2. Ôåæ "ASGORE. He's a real interesting type of monster. The strongest type of all. We call 'em Boss Monsters. When they have an offspring, the SOUL power of the parents flows into the child... Causing the child to grow as the parents age. But ASGORE doesn't have a child. So he's been stuck at the same age... And probably will be forever. Huh? What if the child is a human...? What? Nah. That wouldn't work. So if ASGORE's your father, he'll definitely outlive you." - Gerson, during the Epilogue

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So... why does Asgore not burn the painting with absolutely no problem by tossing a wall of fire at it?

THe fact that neither of the ghosts summoned would have his kids souls would kinda hint him off that they are not the real deal and all.

 

[Imaginym]

I'd imagine he probably does. Is there anything in UT to suggest monsters can't tell one SOUL apart from another? Nonetheless, Asgore can probably tell these aren't his kids' SOULs, & the painting may not even make a proper UT human SOUL for all we know.

Of course, Asgore's profile notes he's been shown to be a bit naive, & can get shakey, especially if he's doing he shouldn't do. He might hesitate for a moment before he realizes the truth. Given a 20 meter starting distance (The basement of Asgore's castle is big, apparently.), he'll have more than enough time to burn the painting before the memory ghosts reach him, since they move at a walking pace.

Also, just to be sure.... You linked Thunder McQueen's profile in the OP. Is he supposed to be involved in this match? Why and how?

 

[TacticalNuke002]

So... why does Asgore not burn the painting with absolutely no problem by tossing a wall of fire at it?

THe fact that neither of the ghosts summoned would have his kids souls would kinda hint him off that they are not the real deal and all.

They'll look like his kids in the flesh, like they did just before their time of death. Those things are kinda soulless btw.

Also, no prior knowledge means that he'll not know its the painting doing it. If he does try and fight, he'll likely try to fight the "ghosts" (they're ghosts in name only, not actual souls), instead of focusing on the painting.

Thunder is linked both as a joke (Incon king) and because the Painting's ability is similar to throwing an army of Thunder McQueens at the target.

And, its not just limited to Asriel and Chara. The painting will constantly summon ghosts indefinitely. Anyone Asgore knows, has heard of, read about, seen etc. and has died will get summoned.

 

[Imaginym]

So it sends soulless memory ghosts at him? Those could definitely be identified as fakes.

Heck, Asgore especially should know what a SOUL looks like, as he went and killed 6 humans specifically to put their SOULs in containers so he'd eventually have 7 to break the barrier. Not to mention in his battle against Frisk, he'll use attacks that are influenced by the Mode of Frisk's SOUL as well as attacks that'll home in on it.

Not to mention, Monster SOULs being so attuned to their made-of-magic-formed-beings, do not persist after death, or in the case of Monster SOULs, not very long after death. It might make him hesitate more, but that'd be all the more reason not to believe it.

No monster in Undertale should have a ghost, because its SOUL will be gone when it dies.

This could confuse him or make him hesitate more or make it think they're his real kids, though, & he can be a bit naive & clingy.

(Napstablook is a ghost, yes, but a ghost Monster, & there's hardly any suggestion he's a spirit of someone deceased, let alone amonster.)

Nonetheless, your own opening post says:

"There's a ton of old stuff lying around the basement of Asgore's castle, so for the annual spring cleaning drive, he decides to go there and incinerate all the trash. He goes to the basement and sees a weird black painting of a human woman and decides to make it the first thing to incinerate."

He'd have motive to go after the painting first.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Will he still continue after seeing the army of people he thought were dead? The ghosts are indiscernible from real people. Also, is Asgore prone to this kind of behaviour?

https://jojo.wikia.com/wiki/Pierre

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

He'll throw flames right away, ghost appearing won't stop that.

And the indiscernible part kinda fails when none of them have souls.

 

[Imaginym]

Will he still continue after seeing the army of people he thought were dead? The ghosts are indiscernible from real people. Also, is Asgore prone to this kind of behaviour?
https://jojo.wikia.com/wiki/Pierre

Is Asgore prone to what kind of behaviour? Attack first, talk later? I mean, I'm going off what you said in the opening post.

He's never fought after the barrier is open, and before it is, he's a bit nervous about having to fight Frisk. Offering them tea, a chat, not wanting to do it. Partially because he didn't want to kill a child, but he needed the 7th Human SOUL to break the barrier.

However, in combat itself, he was quite resolute not to talk things over. IIRC, he's one of the few enemies in UT that can't be pacified, & in fact, he breaks the Mercy button at the start of the fight, so Spare literally isn't an option then.

Nonetheless, a Human without a SOUL to target would be a tip off.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Can UT monsters see souls in others by default?

 

[Imaginym]

It's a bit unclear, but probably. Within battles, Frisk's SOUL is what dodges attacks on the bullet board from enemies. Several characters have moves that change the SOUL's Mode (It turns a different colour, & how the SOUL is controlled in gameplay changes, too.) as well.

Supposedly, UT Human Souls come in several colours; Frisk's is a red heart. Monsters have upside down White hearts.

Quoting the Wiki: "A human's SOUL is not the entirety of their being, but rather their essence housed in a physical body."

Similarly, a Monster's SOUL is their whole being, hence their body turning to dust if their SOUL is destroyed.

Also, Asgore has Light Blue and Orange attacks in his battle. Light Blue pass through harmlessly if the SOUL isn't moving, and Orange do the same if the SOUL IS moving.

https://undertale.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Types In Undertale, Sans explains about Light Blue attacks, & Alphys explains about Orange attacks, so it seems reasonable to assume Asgore might understand about how those and the SOUL can interact.

Although, Sans & Alphys have both been scientists, albeit, not sure how much so about the SOUL. Sans studied timelines, I think, & Alphys, Determination, IIRC? So MAYBE it isn't common knowledge?


A SOUL-less Chara would be highly suspect if Asgore can see SOULs. SOUL-less Asriel might be harder to pick up on: Since a monster's SOUL is their whole being, for all we know, their SOUL might be indiscernible from their body.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Fair enough.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Oh, they absoluyely can. They have several homing attacks that would makebno sense otherwise.

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah, good point. There is the homing attacks, too. Although it could be argued just because they have attacks that home in on something doesn't mean they can perceive it. As a hypothetical example, just because a fictional character has heat-seeking attacks doesn't mean they can see things on the heat spectrum like with infrared vision or something.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

This seems like it might be solidly in Asgore's coner.

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah. As long as he doesn't stay nervous too long after seeing his dead kids & his SOUL perception is good enough, he should be able to go on the attack long before the Memory Ghosts finish walking to him.

His clingy nature may make him maybe want to hug them, but as long as he controls his impulses & picks up on their weird behaviour of only silently walking, he'll probably be fine.

And the scenario in the OP does specify him already about to burn the painting.

Also, if Chara's Memory Ghost touches him, he gets ill of buttercup poisoning, which has made him really sick before, but he survived, & if Asriel's touches him, he turns to dust, & as a Boss Monster, his SOUL will persist for a few moments.

Possibility of not acting because of emotional shock aside, given that Speed is Unequalized, in either of those scenarios, he'll probably have a bit of time (Disease setting in or moments of SOUL persistence.) in which he can make a killing blow on the painting, supposing his SOUL can still attack at that point if it's Asriel's MG, & probably regardless if it's Chara's.


So I think Asgore will calm down and be reasonable quick enough to burn the painting before he gets touched by a Memory Ghost & thus win the majority of time, sometimes get an inconclusive via burning the painting in his dying moments, and lose the least.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

So, voting for Asgore?

Tbh, the painting is a little hard to make matches for. If I give the opponent knowledge he'll attack the painting immediately and the painting can't fight back. If I don't, the opponent gets oneshotted by the ghosts and due to not focussing on the painting. I also cannot make matches with non-fire users since one needs to burn the painting to get rid of its effects (merely destroying the painting doesn't help because the paint is the cause of the effect and needs to be burned or destroyed).

So UT fire users are the fairest matchups for it, even if its in a losing cause.

 

[Imaginym]

I would say yes, voting for Asgore unless given reason otherwise.

Also, sorry to hear about your matchmaking difficulties. Good luck, though!

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You could put it against Gobo slayer. Dude does have fire that he uses semi-regularly, and has lost his sister.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

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[TacticalNuke002]

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