Ashita no Joe CRT

[Cauann2K]

Counter is a technique that the objective is to put all the force of the opponent's attack against himself. It is not necessary to be hit for that. There should be more examples, but I don't remember the chapters for now

 

[Silvervigilant]

Is this going anywhere ?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Oh yeah, I should probably apply the changes

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

May I get to the editing?

 

[Silvervigilant]

May I get to the editing?

I suppose, but maybe we should talk with Antvasima first.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Wow, I created this over a year ago and it's still gone nowhere. My apologies. I wanna do one finale recalc, get that evaluated and then add all the abilities.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Before that, about Joe's intelligence. He should def be genius fighting wise imo, but should he be above average or gifted outside of it? He developed a prison break plan that would've worked had Rikishi not intervened, manipulated Wolf's trainer into letting him and Danpei back into boxing and scammed the Shiraki group into giving him 500000 yen

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Honestly even with the counterarguments this guy seems like Genius fighting-wise to me. Rest seems ok anyway tho.

Late AF, sorry for that, do you remember that calc? You rejected using full weight because it's likely it wasn't applied then. But I just realized one thing - Joe essentially slammed Harimau onto the floor. Since both Harimau and Joe were stopped by that, doesn't it require Harimau to absorb the entire weight of the attack, therefore havint it scale to his durability?

 

[Armorchompy]

Late AF, sorry for that, do you remember that calc?

no

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

no

Ashita no Joe-recalc

vsbattles.fandom.com

So, below we had a debate over whether or not full KE should be used here. But I’m just wondering, if Harimau was outright slammed into the floor, shouldn’t he have absorbed the entire weight behind the attack? Joe was right on top of him and descended his entire body weight

 

[Armorchompy]

Could I ask for a gallery of the feat, preferably higher quality than the current scans? It's a bit hard to parse

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Could I ask for a gallery of the feat, preferably higher quality than the current scans? It's a bit hard to parse

Sure, when I go home

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Could I ask for a gallery of the feat, preferably higher quality than the current scans? It's a bit hard to parse

Not sure if I have better quality, sorry

 

[Armorchompy]

Quality's more than fine. That said, slamming someone into the ground doesn't really mean your full weight went into the attack, theirs did I guess but the kinetic energy of the attack comes before the impact, it would likely slow down as that happens

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Quality's more than fine. That said, slamming someone into the ground doesn't really mean your full weight went into the attack, theirs did I guess but the kinetic energy of the attack comes before the impact, it would likely slow down as that happens

So, what should we do here? Joe was said to descend his entire weight into the attack

 

[Armorchompy]

I kinda already talked about that a year ago, his fist is visibly moving faster than the rest of the body. Though if it's any consolation I believe 1/75 is used for FTE, not 1/70, so that would slightly increase the results

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I kinda already talked about that a year ago, his fist is visibly moving faster than the rest of the body. Though if it's any consolation I believe 1/75 is used for FTE, not 1/70, so that would slightly increase the results

But thing is, if he slammed him into the floor, shouldn't he have been stopped in his tracks, making the dude's face absorbing the energy of Joe's body suddenly stopping? Or changing directions, at least. Also, Joe's fist is not just visibly moving faster than the rest of his body, it's also moving faster than the spinning Harimau. Like, significantly faster. And this spinning thing seems to be a specific technique where Harimau moves this fast, so pixel scaling how far the fist moves compared to how far Harimau spins won't be calc stacking.
Also, I'm not sure if the fist moving faster automatically debunks full body KE? Mike Tyson's fist also moves the fastest, but he still puts the weight of his shoulder and some upper body in it

 

[Armorchompy]

But thing is, if he slammed him into the floor, shouldn't he have been stopped in his tracks, making the dude's face absorbing the energy of Joe's body suddenly stopping? Or changing directions, at least.

I mean yeah, the KE was transferred to his body, that doesn't mean all the speed is since mass increases.

And this spinning thing seems to be a specific technique where Harimau moves this fast, so pixel scaling how far the fist moves compared to how far Harimau spins won't be calc stacking.

eeh, i don't think you can say it's the same speed down to the mm/s

Also, I'm not sure if the fist moving faster automatically debunks full body KE? Mike Tyson's fist also moves the fastest, but he still puts the weight of his shoulder and some upper body in it

i uh also replied to that a year ago

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I mean yeah, the KE was transferred to his body, that doesn't mean all the speed is since mass increases.

eeh, i don't think you can say it's the same speed down to the mm/s

i uh also replied to that a year ago

I mean yeah, the KE was transferred to his body, that doesn't mean all the speed is since mass increases.

Isn't KE a direct result of the speed though

eeh, i don't think you can say it's the same speed down to the mm/s

Considering it's a corkscrew flip, it must be pretty hard to control its velocity. Even then, it's really unlikely the flip was significantly slower that time

 

[Armorchompy]

Isn't KE a direct result of the speed though

Speed meeting mass. If the an object moving at a certain speed hits a heavier object (and somehow translates 100% of its energy to it), that object will move slower due to its higher mass. It's a ratio type thing, mass doubles, speed goes sixfold, KE's gonna stay the same

Considering it's a corkscrew flip, it must be pretty hard to control its velocity. Even then, it's really unlikely the flip was significantly slower that time

I mean it's an execution thing, a even top level athlete isn't going to repeat their moves that precisely.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Speed meeting mass. If the an object moving at a certain speed hits a heavier object (and somehow translates 100% of its energy to it), that object will move slower due to its higher mass. It's a ratio type thing, mass doubles, speed goes sixfold, KE's gonna stay the same

Well, the reason the velocity didn't change is precisely cause the dude got slammed into the floor. Which would be the reasoning for full KE scaling

I mean it's an execution thing, a even top level athlete isn't going to repeat their moves that precisely.

Yeah, but it shouldn't be a significant enough difference

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, the reason the velocity didn't change is precisely cause the dude got slammed into the floor. Which would be the reasoning for full KE scaling

?? What makes you think it didn't

Yeah, but it shouldn't be a significant enough difference

eeeeh still unsure, there's also the fact that you calculated the speed of the whole technique while realistically parts of it would involve less movement than others

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

?? What makes you think it didn't

Sorry for my density, could you explain me the KE thing again?

eeeeh still unsure, there's also the fact that you calculated the speed of the whole technique while realistically parts of it would involve less movement than others

Well, lesser parts of it would take a smaller amount of time. 1/75 seconds is how long the entire thing took.

 

[Armorchompy]

Sorry for my density, could you explain me the KE thing again?

just, the point is that if you punch something heavier than your arm it's gonna move slower than your arm did because of how the energy transfers, even ignoring that no impact is perfect and some of the energy will inevitably be lost

Well, lesser parts of it would take a smaller amount of time. 1/75 seconds is how long the entire thing took.

Yeah but like, there's still parts that move more slowly than other parts, it's not a mechanical, one-directional movement.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

just, the point is that if you punch something heavier than your arm it's gonna move slower than your arm did because of how the energy transfers, even ignoring that no impact is perfect and some of the energy will inevitably be lost

I somewhat get it. How do we calc KE then?

Yeah but like, there's still parts that move more slowly than other parts, it's not a mechanical, one-directional movement.

The fact that some parts are slower is made up by the fact that other parts are even faster

 

[Armorchompy]

I somewhat get it. How do we calc KE then?

KE is the means by which it's transmitted so even if it transmitted perfectly the KE of the body getting slammed would only be as high as the punch that hit it

The fact that some parts are slower is made up by the fact that other parts are even faster

I mean yeah but how do you know what parts you're using for comparison

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

KE is the means by which it's transmitted so even if it transmitted perfectly the KE of the body getting slammed would only be as high as the punch that hit it

Could you explain me how this works based on examples? We have a common feat of being hit by a car- gets street. Being slammed into a wall by a car gets wall cause you absorb its full KE. How is this feat any different?

I mean yeah but how do you know what parts you're using for comparison

His (spinnijg dude’s) arm is moving visibly faster than the rest of the body, and Joe punches faster than it. This would also buff the current calculation

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm sorry I just really don't care to continue this discussion, contact another calc member if you'd like

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I'm sorry I just really don't care to continue this discussion, contact another calc member if you'd like

'Tis fine. This conversation was probably very annoying for you

 

[Armorchompy]

Nah, s'fine, just a bit long and repetitive, don't worry about it

 

[Silvervigilant]

Well i know that some time has passed since i last saw this thread, but i just finished re-reading Ashita No Joe recently, and i notice that Joe should have these abilities:

Supernatural Willpower: Joe is able to take horrible beatings and continue to fight, he can stand up and keep fighting after getting hit by devastating attacks time and time again to the point of exhaustion through sheer determination alone. He was able to keep fighting while unconscious multiple times during the series. He was able to overcome his psychological trauma of attacking up high through sheer willpower alone. Joe was able to stand up after taking Yong-bi Kim's chom-chom technique, a technique that no boxer was able to stand up after receiving it. Joe was able to keep fighting after taking a beating that would render any human's physical and psychological state destroyed, he was even able to beat Kim, despite having no stamina left on his body, due to the grueling weight loss he had while preparing for this fight (While trying to lose weight for the fight Joe refused to eat and drink for dangerously long periods, even going so far as to pass out in a hot sauna just to shed the extra pounds). His willpower is strong enough to overcome his advanced punch-drunk state, something that defied even medical knowledge. In his fight against José Mendoza, Joe was able to fight against José, while severely punch drunk and blind of an eye, Joe was even dominating the fight during the last round despite being practically dead, José was even convinced that he was fighting a dead man or a outright ghost.

Accelerated Development: Joe is a naturally talented fighter, who can become considerably stronger with little to no training, he was able to close the skill gap between him and Wolf Kanagushi in a short time period, Carlos Rivera was shocked by how much he progressed in a short amount of time. Joe is able to grasp even highly difficult techniques with relative ease, such when he was able to tag Rikiishi (A undefeated pro) with his jabs, despite practicing them only for a day or so, Rikiishi was impressed by his jabs and even compared them to those of a pro. Not only that, Joe in his first boxing match, was able to tie with Rikiishi by hitting him with a cross counter, a high level technique that he completely mastered just after seeing once. Was able to blitz Aoyama despite getting blitzed by him during the beginning of their fight. Can get better as the fight progresses.

Acrobatics: Joe is fairly athletic. He was able quickly jump into a boxing ring, can easily perform some difficult acrobatic stunts, can jump high altitudes and land perfectly fine. Joe was even able to use Harimau's own acrobatic fighting style against him.

Technique Mimicry: Joe is capable of mimicking techniques through simple observation even after just a single viewing. He was able to perfectly copy the cross counter just after seeing once. He copied Aoyama high level hit and run techniques through simple observation, Aoyama skills were on a such high level that even Rikiishi was not sure he could deal with them. He also copied Aoyama konnyaku techniques, while punch drunk, just by remembering it. Joe was able to copy Carlos Rivera hidden elbow smash attack something that's difficult for the average boxer even see. Used Harimau's own acrobatic fighting style against him. Copied José Mendoza's advanced corkscrew punches, a high level punch. Joe even used some of Mendoza's other techniques against him.

Genius Intelligence (Combat wise): Joe is repeatedly stated to be a fighting genius by Danpei, who is pretty damn smart himself when it comes to boxing. Joe learned how to do a effective footwork, block and even a high level sway all by himself, he also developed the no-guard stance by his own. He is capable of coming up with unorthodox strategies to win even in the heat of the moment and is a master at using ropes to his advantage, he used the ropes to land a cross counter on Rikiishi, managed to caught Pinang Sarawak of guard by using the ropes, Joe was even able to use the ropes not only to counter Harimau acrobatic attacks but also as way to make him fall of the ring in a perfectly legal way. Joe is also an excellent counter puncher, he was able to knock out a large number of Juveniles using the cross counter, created the triple cross counter during his fight with Wolf, was able to counter Harimau's unpredictable acrobatic fighting style. During his fight against José Mendoza, Joe was able to completely negate José's defense (which everyone thought was perfect, even Joe himself), something that no fighter was able to do, and even José himself was unable to comprehend how Joe was getting past his defense, Joe was also able to understand the whole secret behind José's shoulder grip trick, Joe even managed to land a cross counter and a triple cross counter on Mendoza, despite being punch drunk and completely blind in one eye. Joe is also capable of mastering high level techniques with relative ease as you can see above.

Instinctive Reaction: Joe was able to keep fighting while unconscious multiple times during the series, instinctively dodge a uppercut from Rikiishi, often utilizes his mental effort on planning strategies rather than using to perform his offensive/defensive moves.

Afterimage Creation: Joe can do the same technique that Aoyama did. He also should be able to replicate what Rikiishi did.

Fear Inducement: Joe generally scares the hell out of his opponents, scared a whole crowd, scared Inagaki to the point of desperation, was able to make Harimau tremble in fear and run away from him. Joe scared Yong-bi Kim so much that he was paralysed with fear, Kim even thought Joe was some kind of a monster, and the thing is that Kim was like a computer, cold and calculating with a machine like personality, he never showed a ounce of emotion during a fight, but Joe completely destabilized him with fear. José Mendoza became so fearful of Joe during the fight that he went temporarily insane, screaming in complete terror and fighting like scared animal, José was convinced that he was fighting a ghost, the experiencie of fighting Joe was so abnormal that José got much older and and his hair got all white (Similarly to what happens in fiction when a character has a supernatural experience) due to the sheer stress and fear he went through during the fight.

Damage Boost: With his cross counter, double cross counter, triple cross counter and corkscrew punch.

Damage Reduction: By using José Mendoza's shoulder grip trick.

Pain Resistance: Generally seems unfazed by beatings that would leave any human in excruciating pain.

Also the (Small Building) calc seems completely fine for me since it's literally stated on panel that Joe used his entire body weight on that attack, and while i agree that irl Joe would be unable to use his entire body weight in this attack, in ANJ verse that's cleary not the case, since this is not even the only attack that is stated to utilize one's entire body weight behind a punch, these are legit techniques in ANJ verse even though they would not work that way in real life, also if we try to apply real physics on ANJ then we would have to consider that the cross counter doesn't quadruplicate the power of a punch, despite the fact that we are shown multiple times during the series that it indeed does. Not mention the fact that most Wall level feats are done either casually or very early in the series, for example a 15 year old untrained Joe was able to do this with a simple punch, Rikiishi heavily weakened by his extreme diet was able to knock down a reinforced steel door only using a wooden beam, and Wolf Kanagushi was able to survive a punch 12x times more powerful than Joe's average ones, and José Mendoza was able one shot fighters such as Carlos Rivera who scale higher than Wolf in terms of durability, and the same José Mendoza was able to tank a punch 12x times more powerful than Joe already strong punches that were damaging him, So Joe being 9-A is not really a stretch by any means.

 

[Armorchompy]

Fear Manip is absolutely a no, he's just a scary opponent to fight in-verse because of how strong/skilled he is, someone stronger than him would have no reason to be afraid. Also the "scared a whole crowd" thing lasts a half second then they go back to throwing shit at him lol.

 

[Silvervigilant]

Fear Manip is absolutely a no, he's just a scary opponent to fight in-verse because of how strong/skilled he is, someone stronger than him would have no reason to be afraid.

I understand your point, but both Mendoza and Kim were stronger and arguably more skilled than him at that time, however they still got absolutely terrified by him, Mendoza was acting totally irrational and his hair got white due to the amount of fear and stress he had during the fight.

Also the "scared a whole crowd" thing lasts a half second then they go back to throwing shit at him lol.

No that didn't happened, the crowd was confused about what he was saying but they did calm down and they did had an expression of fear in their faces. It happens in Vol 17 i think, You can read the full volume to check it out for yourself, the whole thing begins at page 87.

But anyway thanks for giving your opinion man, do you disagree with anything else? if so feel free to share your thoughts.

 

[Armorchompy]

I understand your point, but both Mendoza and Kim were stronger and arguably more skilled than him at that time, however they still got absolutely terrified by him, Mendoza was acting totally irrational and his hair got white due to the amount of fear and stress he had during the fight.

It seems like they were both just scared by his sheer stamina, thinking no human could stand up after the beating they gave him. It's a pretty damn good justification for Superhuman stamina but I think it's a reasonable enough reaction that we shouldn't assume some supernatural influence is in effect.

No that didn't happened, the crowd was confused about what he was saying but they did calm down and they did had an expression of fear in their faces. It happens in Vol 17 i think, You can read the full volume to check it out for yourself, the whole thing begins at page 87.

I dunno about fear, after the initial shock they just seem like they're confused and maybe a bit outraged at his claim, they don't seem like they're too terrified. Probably Social Influencing tho considering they don't even understand him and he still had that effect.

But anyway thanks for giving your opinion man, do you disagree with anything else? if so feel free to share your thoughts.

No every other P&A is fine, really good work, actually, I know I'm criticizing but it's very thorough, nice job.

The calc honestly I dunno, I still think it's a bit too much of an extrapolation but I understand that sometimes martial arts manga are just weirdly literal about things so I understand if you wanna look for a second opinion, but as far as I go I still disagree, other "whole weight behind the punch" statements would still fall under the (not literal) IRL meaning of the term IMO. If I have to get picky, for the feat itself it also says that Joe comes down with his whole weight, not that all that weight directly goes into the punch.

Both the door feats would probably be high 9-C actually given that the doors themselves are relatively intact. The metal one might have stronger hinges, but still very low end 9-B at best, which is thousands of times under the 9-A result.

 

[Silvervigilant]

It seems like they were both just scared by his sheer stamina, thinking no human could stand up after the beating they gave him. It's a pretty damn good justification for Superhuman stamina but I think it's a reasonable enough reaction that we shouldn't assume some supernatural influence is in effect.

Well this makes sense honestly, but the only thing that makes think that it was some form of fear inducment, was due to the bizarre way that Mendoza acted and the strange effects the fight had on his mind and body.

I dunno about fear, after the initial shock they just seem like they're confused and maybe a bit outraged at his claim, they don't seem like they're too terrified. Probably Social Influencing tho considering they don't even understand him and he still had that effect.

So do you think Social Influencing is more fitting?

No every other P&A is fine, really good work, actually, I know I'm criticizing but it's very thorough, nice job.

No problem man, thanks for the input.

The calc honestly I dunno, I still think it's a bit too much of an extrapolation but I understand that sometimes martial arts manga are just weirdly literal about things so I understand if you wanna look for a second opinion, but as far as I go I still disagree, other "whole weight behind the punch" statements would still fall under the (not literal) IRL meaning of the term IMO. If I have to get picky, for the feat itself it also says that Joe comes down with his whole weight, not that all that weight directly goes into the punch.

ANJ generally is pretty literal when it comes to explaning the techniques expecially when the source is the boxing commentators, and while they don't explicity say that all that weight directly go into Joe's punch, it's pretty clear that it was the case given the context of the fight, another thing that makes think that "the weight into the punch" thing is literal is due to the fact that during the first fight between Carlos and Joe, Carlos literally loses his balance because Joe redirected a punch that he was putting all his weight into. Not to mention the fact that the Kangaroo Punch is a legit technique in ANJ verse, and this technique consists in using the ropes to put one's entire weight behind a punch, i mean you can't get more literal than that lol.

Both the door feats would probably be high 9-C actually given that the doors themselves are relatively intact. The metal one might have stronger hinges, but still very low end 9-B at best, which is thousands of times under the 9-A result.

Yeah i know, i just used feats of both Joe and Rikiishi in their lowest point to ilustrate how much stronger Joe is by the end of series, when Joe did his feat he was just 15, and didn't had any training but he still was able to that with a casual punch, and Rikiishi was days without driking or eating and had just losed alot of weight when he did that feat, so Rikiishi was severely weakened.

But anyway thanks again for the input man.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well this makes sense honestly, but the only thing that makes think that it was some form of fear inducment, was due to the bizarre way that Mendoza acted and the strange effects the fight had on his mind and body.

So do you think Social Influencing is more fitting?

IMO yeah, some of the results are very exaggerated but I think the explanation for them is still not supernatural.

No problem man, thanks for the input.

ANJ generally is pretty literal when it comes to explaning the techniques expecially when the source is the boxing commentators, and while they don't explicity say that all that weight directly go into Joe's punch, it's pretty clear that it was the case given the context of the fight, another thing that makes think that "the weight into the punch" thing is literal is due to the fact that during the first fight between Carlos and Joe, Carlos literally loses his balance because Joe redirected a punch that he was putting all his weight into.

I mean I think that's just the natural consequence of putting this much momentum in a punch, I'm not denying that some of that is going in the KE itself, but I don't think that's evidence that the whole thing would translate directly to the punch, especially when by the nature of a punch, the rest of the body is inherently moving at a slower pace. I know that's maybe a bit too realistic of a take but I don't see anything here that's too unrealistic about the translation of momentum into a punch.

Not to mention the fact that the Kangaroo Punch is a legit technique in ANJ verse, and this technique consists in using the ropes to put one's entire weight behind a punch, i mean you can't get more literal than that lol.

I mean Floyd Patterson was a real guy, fairly sure that's just like a real thing.

Yeah i know, i just used feats of both Joe and Rikiishi in their lowest point to ilustrate how much stronger Joe is by the end of series, when Joe did his feat he was just 15, and didn't had any training but he still was able to that with a casual punch, and Rikiishi was days without driking or eating and had just losed alot of weight when he did that feat, so Rikiishi was severely weakened.

mhm, not saying it's an outlier or anything

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Well i know that some time has passed since i last saw this thread, but i just finished re-reading Ashita No Joe recently, and i notice that Joe should have these abilities:

Supernatural Willpower: Joe is able to take horrible beatings and continue to fight, he can stand up and keep fighting after getting hit by devastating attacks time and time again to the point of exhaustion through sheer determination alone. He was able to keep fighting while unconscious multiple times during the series. He was able to overcome his psychological trauma of attacking up high through sheer willpower alone. Joe was able to stand up after taking Yong-bi Kim's chom-chom technique, a technique that no boxer was able to stand up after receiving it. Joe was able to keep fighting after taking a beating that would render any human's physical and psychological state destroyed, he was even able to beat Kim, despite having no stamina left on his body, due to the grueling weight loss he had while preparing for this fight (While trying to lose weight for the fight Joe refused to eat and drink for dangerously long periods, even going so far as to pass out in a hot sauna just to shed the extra pounds). His willpower is strong enough to overcome his advanced punch-drunk state, something that defied even medical knowledge. In his fight against José Mendoza, Joe was able to fight against José, while severely punch drunk and blind of an eye, Joe was even dominating the fight during the last round despite being practically dead, José was even convinced that he was fighting a dead man or a outright ghost.

Accelerated Development: Joe is a naturally talented fighter, who can become considerably stronger with little to no training, he was able to close the skill gap between him and Wolf Kanagushi in a short time period, Carlos Rivera was shocked by how much he progressed in a short amount of time. Joe is able to grasp even highly difficult techniques with relative ease, such when he was able to tag Rikiishi (A undefeated pro) with his jabs, despite practicing them only for a day or so, Rikiishi was impressed by his jabs and even compared them to those of a pro. Not only that, Joe in his first boxing match, was able to tie with Rikiishi by hitting him with a cross counter, a high level technique that he completely mastered just after seeing once. Was able to blitz Aoyama despite getting blitzed by him during the beginning of their fight. Can get better as the fight progresses.

Acrobatics: Joe is fairly athletic. He was able quickly jump into a boxing ring, can easily perform some difficult acrobatic stunts, can jump high altitudes and land perfectly fine. Joe was even able to use Harimau's own acrobatic fighting style against him.

Technique Mimicry: Joe is capable of mimicking techniques through simple observation even after just a single viewing. He was able to perfectly copy the cross counter just after seeing once. He copied Aoyama high level hit and run techniques through simple observation, Aoyama skills were on a such high level that even Rikiishi was not sure he could deal with them. He also copied Aoyama konnyaku techniques, while punch drunk, just by remembering it. Joe was able to copy Carlos Rivera hidden elbow smash attack something that's difficult for the average boxer even see. Used Harimau's own acrobatic fighting style against him. Copied José Mendoza's advanced corkscrew punches, a high level punch. Joe even used some of Mendoza's other techniques against him.

Genius Intelligence (Combat wise): Joe is repeatedly stated to be a fighting genius by Danpei, who is pretty damn smart himself when it comes to boxing. Joe learned how to do a effective footwork, block and even a high level sway all by himself, he also developed the no-guard stance by his own. He is capable of coming up with unorthodox strategies to win even in the heat of the moment and is a master at using ropes to his advantage, he used the ropes to land a cross counter on Rikiishi, managed to caught Pinang Sarawak of guard by using the ropes, Joe was even able to use the ropes not only to counter Harimau acrobatic attacks but also as way to make him fall of the ring in a perfectly legal way. Joe is also an excellent counter puncher, he was able to knock out a large number of Juveniles using the cross counter, created the triple cross counter during his fight with Wolf, was able to counter Harimau's unpredictable acrobatic fighting style. During his fight against José Mendoza, Joe was able to completely negate José's defense (which everyone thought was perfect, even Joe himself), something that no fighter was able to do, and even José himself was unable to comprehend how Joe was getting past his defense, Joe was also able to understand the whole secret behind José's shoulder grip trick, Joe even managed to land a cross counter and a triple cross counter on Mendoza, despite being punch drunk and completely blind in one eye. Joe is also capable of mastering high level techniques with relative ease as you can see above.

Instinctive Reaction: Joe was able to keep fighting while unconscious multiple times during the series, instinctively dodge a uppercut from Rikiishi, often utilizes his mental effort on planning strategies rather than using to perform his offensive/defensive moves.

Afterimage Creation: Joe can do the same technique that Aoyama did. He also should be able to replicate what Rikiishi did.

Fear Inducement: Joe generally scares the hell out of his opponents, scared a whole crowd, scared Inagaki to the point of desperation, was able to make Harimau tremble in fear and run away from him. Joe scared Yong-bi Kim so much that he was paralysed with fear, Kim even thought Joe was some kind of a monster, and the thing is that Kim was like a computer, cold and calculating with a machine like personality, he never showed a ounce of emotion during a fight, but Joe completely destabilized him with fear. José Mendoza became so fearful of Joe during the fight that he went temporarily insane, screaming in complete terror and fighting like scared animal, José was convinced that he was fighting a ghost, the experiencie of fighting Joe was so abnormal that José got much older and and his hair got all white (Similarly to what happens in fiction when a character has a supernatural experience) due to the sheer stress and fear he went through during the fight.

Damage Boost: With his cross counter, double cross counter, triple cross counter and corkscrew punch.

Damage Reduction: By using José Mendoza's shoulder grip trick.

Pain Resistance: Generally seems unfazed by beatings that would leave any human in excruciating pain.

Also the (Small Building) calc seems completely fine for me since it's literally stated on panel that Joe used his entire body weight on that attack, and while i agree that irl Joe would be unable to use his entire body weight in this attack, in ANJ verse that's cleary not the case, since this is not even the only attack that is stated to utilize one's entire body weight behind a punch, these are legit techniques in ANJ verse even though they would not work that way in real life, also if we try to apply real physics on ANJ then we would have to consider that the cross counter doesn't quadruplicate the power of a punch, despite the fact that we are shown multiple times during the series that it indeed does. Not mention the fact that most Wall level feats are done either casually or very early in the series, for example a 15 year old untrained Joe was able to do this with a simple punch, Rikiishi heavily weakened by his extreme diet was able to knock down a reinforced steel door only using a wooden beam, and Wolf Kanagushi was able to survive a punch 12x times more powerful than Joe's average ones, and José Mendoza was able one shot fighters such as Carlos Rivera who scale higher than Wolf in terms of durability, and the same José Mendoza was able to tank a punch 12x times more powerful than Joe already strong punches that were damaging him, So Joe being 9-A is not really a stretch by any means.

I'm the Ashita Joe guy, what the hell, how dare you sum up all the necessary abilities better than I ever could

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

IMO yeah, some of the results are very exaggerated but I think the explanation for them is still not supernatural.



I mean I think that's just the natural consequence of putting this much momentum in a punch, I'm not denying that some of that is going in the KE itself, but I don't think that's evidence that the whole thing would translate directly to the punch, especially when by the nature of a punch, the rest of the body is inherently moving at a slower pace. I know that's maybe a bit too realistic of a take but I don't see anything here that's too unrealistic about the translation of momentum into a punch.

I mean Floyd Patterson was a real guy, fairly sure that's just like a real thing.

mhm, not saying it's an outlier or anything

I certainly see your point. But if we look at it this way - Joe hits Harimau and slams him into the ground. Then, since Harimau is pinned and Joe is still airborn and descending, he keeps on pressing on Harimau. Since Joe is falling in Harimau's direction and Harimau has no where to move now, he has to absorb the entirety of KE at this point

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Well i know that some time has passed since i last saw this thread, but i just finished re-reading Ashita No Joe recently, and i notice that Joe should have these abilities:

Supernatural Willpower: Joe is able to take horrible beatings and continue to fight, he can stand up and keep fighting after getting hit by devastating attacks time and time again to the point of exhaustion through sheer determination alone. He was able to keep fighting while unconscious multiple times during the series. He was able to overcome his psychological trauma of attacking up high through sheer willpower alone. Joe was able to stand up after taking Yong-bi Kim's chom-chom technique, a technique that no boxer was able to stand up after receiving it. Joe was able to keep fighting after taking a beating that would render any human's physical and psychological state destroyed, he was even able to beat Kim, despite having no stamina left on his body, due to the grueling weight loss he had while preparing for this fight (While trying to lose weight for the fight Joe refused to eat and drink for dangerously long periods, even going so far as to pass out in a hot sauna just to shed the extra pounds). His willpower is strong enough to overcome his advanced punch-drunk state, something that defied even medical knowledge. In his fight against José Mendoza, Joe was able to fight against José, while severely punch drunk and blind of an eye, Joe was even dominating the fight during the last round despite being practically dead, José was even convinced that he was fighting a dead man or a outright ghost.

Accelerated Development: Joe is a naturally talented fighter, who can become considerably stronger with little to no training, he was able to close the skill gap between him and Wolf Kanagushi in a short time period, Carlos Rivera was shocked by how much he progressed in a short amount of time. Joe is able to grasp even highly difficult techniques with relative ease, such when he was able to tag Rikiishi (A undefeated pro) with his jabs, despite practicing them only for a day or so, Rikiishi was impressed by his jabs and even compared them to those of a pro. Not only that, Joe in his first boxing match, was able to tie with Rikiishi by hitting him with a cross counter, a high level technique that he completely mastered just after seeing once. Was able to blitz Aoyama despite getting blitzed by him during the beginning of their fight. Can get better as the fight progresses.

Acrobatics: Joe is fairly athletic. He was able quickly jump into a boxing ring, can easily perform some difficult acrobatic stunts, can jump high altitudes and land perfectly fine. Joe was even able to use Harimau's own acrobatic fighting style against him.

Technique Mimicry: Joe is capable of mimicking techniques through simple observation even after just a single viewing. He was able to perfectly copy the cross counter just after seeing once. He copied Aoyama high level hit and run techniques through simple observation, Aoyama skills were on a such high level that even Rikiishi was not sure he could deal with them. He also copied Aoyama konnyaku techniques, while punch drunk, just by remembering it. Joe was able to copy Carlos Rivera hidden elbow smash attack something that's difficult for the average boxer even see. Used Harimau's own acrobatic fighting style against him. Copied José Mendoza's advanced corkscrew punches, a high level punch. Joe even used some of Mendoza's other techniques against him.

Genius Intelligence (Combat wise): Joe is repeatedly stated to be a fighting genius by Danpei, who is pretty damn smart himself when it comes to boxing. Joe learned how to do a effective footwork, block and even a high level sway all by himself, he also developed the no-guard stance by his own. He is capable of coming up with unorthodox strategies to win even in the heat of the moment and is a master at using ropes to his advantage, he used the ropes to land a cross counter on Rikiishi, managed to caught Pinang Sarawak of guard by using the ropes, Joe was even able to use the ropes not only to counter Harimau acrobatic attacks but also as way to make him fall of the ring in a perfectly legal way. Joe is also an excellent counter puncher, he was able to knock out a large number of Juveniles using the cross counter, created the triple cross counter during his fight with Wolf, was able to counter Harimau's unpredictable acrobatic fighting style. During his fight against José Mendoza, Joe was able to completely negate José's defense (which everyone thought was perfect, even Joe himself), something that no fighter was able to do, and even José himself was unable to comprehend how Joe was getting past his defense, Joe was also able to understand the whole secret behind José's shoulder grip trick, Joe even managed to land a cross counter and a triple cross counter on Mendoza, despite being punch drunk and completely blind in one eye. Joe is also capable of mastering high level techniques with relative ease as you can see above.

Instinctive Reaction: Joe was able to keep fighting while unconscious multiple times during the series, instinctively dodge a uppercut from Rikiishi, often utilizes his mental effort on planning strategies rather than using to perform his offensive/defensive moves.

Afterimage Creation: Joe can do the same technique that Aoyama did. He also should be able to replicate what Rikiishi did.

Fear Inducement: Joe generally scares the hell out of his opponents, scared a whole crowd, scared Inagaki to the point of desperation, was able to make Harimau tremble in fear and run away from him. Joe scared Yong-bi Kim so much that he was paralysed with fear, Kim even thought Joe was some kind of a monster, and the thing is that Kim was like a computer, cold and calculating with a machine like personality, he never showed a ounce of emotion during a fight, but Joe completely destabilized him with fear. José Mendoza became so fearful of Joe during the fight that he went temporarily insane, screaming in complete terror and fighting like scared animal, José was convinced that he was fighting a ghost, the experiencie of fighting Joe was so abnormal that José got much older and and his hair got all white (Similarly to what happens in fiction when a character has a supernatural experience) due to the sheer stress and fear he went through during the fight.

Damage Boost: With his cross counter, double cross counter, triple cross counter and corkscrew punch.

Damage Reduction: By using José Mendoza's shoulder grip trick.

Pain Resistance: Generally seems unfazed by beatings that would leave any human in excruciating pain.

Also the (Small Building) calc seems completely fine for me since it's literally stated on panel that Joe used his entire body weight on that attack, and while i agree that irl Joe would be unable to use his entire body weight in this attack, in ANJ verse that's cleary not the case, since this is not even the only attack that is stated to utilize one's entire body weight behind a punch, these are legit techniques in ANJ verse even though they would not work that way in real life, also if we try to apply real physics on ANJ then we would have to consider that the cross counter doesn't quadruplicate the power of a punch, despite the fact that we are shown multiple times during the series that it indeed does. Not mention the fact that most Wall level feats are done either casually or very early in the series, for example a 15 year old untrained Joe was able to do this with a simple punch, Rikiishi heavily weakened by his extreme diet was able to knock down a reinforced steel door only using a wooden beam, and Wolf Kanagushi was able to survive a punch 12x times more powerful than Joe's average ones, and José Mendoza was able one shot fighters such as Carlos Rivera who scale higher than Wolf in terms of durability, and the same José Mendoza was able to tank a punch 12x times more powerful than Joe already strong punches that were damaging him, So Joe being 9-A is not really a stretch by any means.

my one problem is instinctive reaction. Joe fighting while unconscious seemed more like he was on the brink of being unconscious, and him "sensing Rikishi's intent" is predicting the way he's going to strike.
Oh, and last thing, Joe didn't scare Kim by himself, it happened because Kim's PTSD got triggered from seeing blood on Joe's face

 

[Silvervigilant]

I'm the Ashita Joe guy, what the hell, how dare you sum up all the necessary abilities better than I ever could

He he sorry