Back with another monk ichibei thread

[Adam1396]

Ichibei's ownership of concept of blackness is accepted as CM type 2

Ichibē Hyōsube

Ichibe Hyosube (兵ひょう主す部べ 一いち兵べ衛え, Hyōsube Ichibē?) is the leader of the Royal Guard, known as the Monk who Calls the Real Name (真ま名な呼こ和お尚しょう, Manako Oshō?) thanks to his ability to identify the true names of any being. It was he who named all things in the Soul Society, including Zanpakuto...

vsbattles.fandom.com

However this seems incorrect. I don't think there should be doubt about that the realities came to be after soul king created the new cosmos. I still added some scans where it's mentioned Soul Society's history started after the separation from primordial sea and and creation of other worlds such as Material world, hueco mundo and and history could have been doomed if yhwach succeeded. In CFYOW novel it's explicitly stated during primordial chaotic world.



Now key points here are
1. the description about how primordial world was. It's a blatant description of chaos. No progress, retreat while swated to and fro, no concept of life and death, no order. Even word chaos directly has been used to describe the world. It's the preexistent state of creation.
Here's how wiki describe primordial chaos

Chaos Manipulation

Chaos Manipulation is power over disorder, instability, randomness, and disharmony. At it's core, this power revolves around destabilization, where established order is disrupted, and unpredictable outcomes are unleashed. Chaos is opposed to order, sometimes linked to the primordial state of the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

2. Each realities were created, history started, order established. Even the greater reality "Garganta" is created which contains other realities.

3. Spatio temporal destruction / reality destruction is involved.

ichibei and some other being came to existence with "their special power" and it indicates soul king's signature power almighty as well. This should obviously include ichibei's main power owning concept of black, naming power. There should be no doubt his abilities effectively existed before the creation of the realities or at least they were well aware about the extent of their abilities since they were sure Adoneyus/ soul king's former self was exceptional.

Point here is:
The concept of blackness predates realities. Such concept should technically outdate the realities as well. It will be clearer by the points below.

We know he named everything in the realms, concept of zankpakuto, shikai, bankai was developed after ichimonji. Not only that, ichibei named every phenomenon, event as well which may include phenomenon like space, time etc.

TYBW, COUR 3, THE CONFLICT, EPISODE 27: A

Discussion

www.thebleachasylum.com

The keyword here is "everything". If he can name type 1 concepts, controlling or governing another type 1 concept is not far fetched or invalid assumption.

Main evidence:
Would the destruction of the objects it governs destroy the concept? Answer is no. Even if all the black object is destroyed there is nothing to assume it would destroy the concept of blackness itself. Ichibei literally has nothingness manipulation on his profile further showing his nonexistent manipulation and how existence of object is irrelevant to this. Strengthening point is, he has that under the radar of same thing "summon blackness from night from future (which is not even physical blackness, it's phenomenon, that's also from future), crushing everything "blackly" to noghtingness. He even refers this place of nothingness as "pitch black hell" implying he can manipulate blackness of absolute nothingness.



This proves his blackness manipulation is not limited to physical things, it can erase concept like names as well. Rather it doesn’t even depend on the existence as a whole.


What I am proposing is since his blackness manipulation and the concept of it predates realities, independent of object in question or even the existence itself as a whole.

This should be listed as Conceptual Manipulation type 1 instead of type 2.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Is there any evidence there was literally no black during this period? For black to be independent concept there would have to be evidence that the concept existed while no black actually existed in the primordial world.

Not just Ichibe having the ability to manipulate black, or the abilities existence in the primordial world, but specifically the existence of the concept and nonexistence of any "black" at the same time.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Is there any evidence there was literally no black during this period? For black to be independent concept there would have to be evidence that the concept existed while no black actually existed in the primordial world.

Not just Ichibe having the ability to manipulate black, or the abilities existence in the primordial world, but specifically the existence of the concept and nonexistence of any "black" at the same time.

We don't know.

 

[Adam1396]

Is there any evidence there was literally no black during this period? For black to be independent concept there would have to be evidence that the concept existed while no black actually existed in the primordial world.

Not just Ichibe having the ability to manipulate black, or the abilities existence in the primordial world, but specifically the existence of the concept and nonexistence of any "black" at the same time.

Pretty sure that's not the only way to get CM 1 and that's not how it works altogether. Showing absense of anything black itself in the primordial world isn’t mandatory. At least that's what I've got after looking into some thread and characters with CE 1 on their profile.

I will see some admods take on this and provide collective response.

 

[Bastolan27]

Pretty sure that's not the only way to get CM 1 and that's not how it works altogether. Showing absense of anything black itself in the primordial world isn’t mandatory. At least that's what I've got after looking into some thread and characters with CE 1 on their profile.

I will see some admods take on this and provide collective response.

I think he means this:

 

[DavidTPPM]

Pretty sure that's not the only way to get CM 1 and that's not how it works altogether. Showing absense of anything black itself in the primordial world isn’t mandatory. At least that's what I've got after looking into some thread and characters with CE 1 on their profile.

I will see some admods take on this and provide collective response.

The CM page defines CM1 as

independent from the part of reality they govern

In contrary to CM2

These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept,

I've seen you ask if predating reality would make a concept CM1 in a different thread. Well that's because under normal circumstances if reality didn't exist there would be no black either making it CM1 as that means it exist independently of the object of the concept.

But in the case of bleach there very much was a different kind of reality where black very much could have existed even before Reio reshaped it.
So as far as I understand, this really wouldn't qualify as type 1 without further evidence that nothing black existed in the primordial world

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree with David here.

 

[Adam1396]

The CM page defines CM1 as

In contrary to CM2

I've seen you ask if predating reality would make a concept CM1 in a different thread. Well that's because under normal circumstances if reality didn't exist there would be no black either making it CM1 as that means it exist independently of the object of the concept.

But in the case of bleach there very much was a different kind of reality where black very much could have existed even before Reio reshaped it.
So as far as I understand, this really wouldn't qualify as type 1 without further evidence that nothing black existed in the primordial world

The CM page defines CM1 as

In contrary to CM2

I've seen you ask if predating reality would make a concept CM1 in a different thread. Well that's because under normal circumstances if reality didn't exist there would be no black either making it CM1 as that means it exist independently of the object of the concept.

But in the case of bleach there very much was a different kind of reality where black very much could have existed even before Reio reshaped it.
So as far as I understand, this really wouldn't qualify as type 1 without further evidence that nothing black existed in the primordial world

Exactly. That is why whether anything black existed or not doesn’t matter at all.

Primordial world can be a described as chaotic mass instead of reality. Or just a big silver ocean as shown in the anime. Whether it was any form of reality doesn’t really matter in this context.

The matter is the realities it is governing now in fact did not exist. Material world, hueco mundo did not exist. Physical matter (keishi) itself didn't exist. And even if the these realities end it won't affect the concept. You can't destroy blackness by destroying every object under this concept either. Absence of anything is blackness itself. This is why it is independent.

 

[Entity]

let's downgrade everything to type 3

 

[DavidTPPM]

Exactly. That is why whether anything black existed or not doesn’t matter at all.

Primordial world can be a described as chaotic mass instead of reality. Or just a big silver ocean as shown in the anime. Whether it was any form of reality doesn’t really matter in this context.

It matters because if reality as a whole contained any black then it wouldn't be cm1. Even as much as Reio or someone else wearing black on their clothes or having black eyes, hair, or anything else, makes this not applicable.

The matter is the realities it is governing now in fact did not exist. And even if the these realities end it won't affect the concept.

No, the reality very much existed and would exist, just in a different form. And you would have to prove this different form didn't or wouldn't have any black at all anywhere within all of existence for black to be CM1.

You can't destroy blackness by destroying every object under this concept either. Absence of anything is blackness itself. This is why it is independent.

That would mean black cannot even be cm1 as the evidence necessary to grant it that rating is logically impossible.

 

[Entity]

Absence of anything is blackness itself

It isn't

 

[Adam1396]

It matters because if reality as a whole contained any black then it wouldn't be cm1. Even as much as Reio or someone else wearing black on their clothes or having black eyes, hair, or anything else, makes this not applicable.

No, the reality very much existed and would exist, just in a different form. And you would have to prove this different form didn't or wouldn't have any black at all anywhere within all of existence for black to be CM1.

That would mean black cannot even be cm1 as the evidence necessary to grant it that rating is logically impossible.

I don’t think you got what I said.
It would still be Concept type 1 for these realities. Since the creation or destruction of these realities is irrelevant to that concept.

How would these realities exist in different form when these realities has been born new after that concept, and would vanish. That's why I put those scans about start and finish of history.
How did physical world exist in different form when physical matter didn’t even exist?

 

[Deceived3596]

I don't see how the Concept of Black potentially predating the creation of the realms is evidence that the Concept of Black isn't dependent on those realms, when the context of the creation process is that the realms were divided from the original Primordial Sea that existed back in the day. It's still the same reality, it's just sectioned differently, with different spatial-temporal frameworks being added to these new realms, and the introduction of a Universal Law of Reincarnation.

If you were to collapse those realms back together, it would recreate the original Primordial Sea -- that was the entire intent of Yhwach in the first place, was to return to such a reality by destroying the current framework and recreating the prior one.

 

[Adam1396]

I don't see how the Concept of Black potentially predating the creation of the realms is evidence that the Concept of Black isn't dependent on those realms, when the context of the creation process is that the realms were divided from the original Primordial Sea that existed back in the day. It's still the same reality, it's just sectioned differently, with different spatial-temporal frameworks being added to these new realms, and the introduction of a Universal Law of Reincarnation.

If you were to collapse those realms back together, it would recreate the original Primordial Sea -- that was the entire intent of Yhwach in the first place, was to return to such a reality by destroying the current framework and recreating the prior one.

It existed even without the existence of these realities. And I prefer to use the word realities instead of realms for obvious reason. It's a cunning method to take things away from the context.

You are missing some main point.
Each of them are realities. Soul society, material world have different histories, timeline. You can not ignore each of them are realities with their own set of rules even if they are part of bigger reality.

That's your headcanon. Hueco mundo, material world, dangai were never part the primordial sea. They simply didn’t even exist back then.

 

[YmTheSuper]

It existed even without the existence of these realities. And I prefer to use the word realities instead of realms for obvious reason. It's a cunning method to take things away from the context.

You are missing some main point.
Each of them are realities. Soul society, material world have different histories, timeline. You can not ignore each of them are realities with their own set of rules even if they are part of bigger reality.

That's your headcanon. Hueco mundo, material world, dangai were never part the primordial sea. They simply didn’t even exist back then.

1)The three realms were literally split from the primordial world
2)You didn't prove that the Concept of Black didn't exist in the primordial world. It literally was just a regular world just without death and the cycle of souls. Concepts and beings such as reishi, hollows, humans... existed back then. Assuming the concept of black didn't exist back then is just baseless.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I don’t think you got what I said.
It would still be Concept type 1 for these realities.

That's not how CM works. Concepts aren't limited to individual spacetime continuums like this unless it's specifically said so.

The concept of "Black" is the same for the premordial world, WoTL, SS, and HM. They don't have 4 individual concepts of black and it can't be type 1 for certain universes but type 2 for another. It's either type 1 for the whole verse or type 2 for the whole verse.

Like the concept of "my ass" is type 3 and creating a new dimension which my butt predates won't magically turn it into a type 1 concept. Otherwise every verse with any sort of pocket reality would be entirely made up of type 1 concepts.

 

[karo_senpaii]

"The concept of my ass"

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

"The concept of my ass"

Imagine he cut Yhwach's cake size with Ichimonji to be petty.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Imagine he cut Yhwach's cake size with Ichimonji to be petty.

All ass belongs to me!!!

 

[Adam1396]

Imagine he cut Yhwach's cake size with Ichimonji to be petty.

All ass belongs to me!!!

Guys don't derail the thread please.

 

[Johner2133451]

Ok I asked bunch of staffs to look into this CRT, hope they notice

 

[Adam1396]

Ok I asked bunch of staffs to look into this CRT, hope they notice

Thanks brotha

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Plausible argument honestly. I agree.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Disagree for the reasons above

 

[DavidTPPM]

"The concept of my ass"

Ass so huge it's a type 1 concept

 

[Johner2133451]

Ass so huge it's a type 1 concept

Type 0*

 

[SuperSonicTL]

"A pain in my ass" ahh goonery

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I agree with David and Deceived

 

[Adam1396]

I agree with David and Deceived

This was before I updated.
It existing prior to creation is supportive evidence.
It is independent because he can control the blackness of absolute nothingness which is irrelevant to the existence of the subeject in questions existence of reality or even reality itself.

 

[DavidTPPM]

This was before I updated.
It existing prior to creation is supportive evidence.
It is independent because he can control the blackness of absolute nothingness which is irrelevant to the existence of the subeject in questions existence of reality or even reality itself.

You are severely misunderstanding what makes a type 1 concept a type 1 concept.

 

[FinePoint]

Given that the current realms are technically just pieces of the previous one, I'm not sure it's accurate to say the concept in question here truly predated the reality it governs, and so I think this probably isn't Type 1.

 

[Adam1396]

Given that the current realms are technically just pieces of the previous one, I'm not sure it's accurate to say the concept in question here truly predated the reality it governs, and so I think this probably isn't Type 1.

They technically and literally are not pieces of privous one. Only soul society can be considered piece (vaguely) but that itself was stated to be created. Matter if yhwach succeded it would form another form of realities doesn’t change the fact these realities are started and finished, did not exist will not exist anymore.


Garganta the supeior space time continuum did not exist so I don’t think it's plausible to say current reality are pieces of older one when biggest one containing them isn't.

And main point here is independence of the subject in question.
Concept even born after reality can be considered type 1 if it's independent.

 

[Deceived3596]

It existed even without the existence of these realities. And I prefer to use the word realities instead of realms for obvious reason. It's a cunning method to take things away from the context.

You are missing some main point.
Each of them are realities. Soul society, material world have different histories, timeline. You can not ignore each of them are realities with their own set of rules even if they are part of bigger reality.

That's your headcanon. Hueco mundo, material world, dangai were never part the primordial sea. They simply didn’t even exist back then.

It existed before they were created, yes. However, the creation of those realms (I disagree with your usage of Reality here, as I will explain further on. So I won't be using that verbiage for clarity purposes) is contextualized around sectioning off parts of the Primordial World to create separate realms from already existing material. So, the fact it existed, chronologically, before the realms were created isn't evidence that it is independent from them, when the original basis of these realms existed during when the Concept of Black was present, and until proven otherwise, metaphysically contingent on that reality.

Them possessing different timelines isn't the same as them possessing different realities. It's still the same "reality" as the Primordial World - it's just composed differently. It's why, like I said before, when Yhwach was in the process of collapsing the realms, it was leading to the consequence of the original Primordial World becoming actualized again. That's clear refutation to the idea these realms are explicitly, totally, separate from the previous iteration of the Cosmology.

It definitely isn't "headcanon" when it's explicitly stated that the realms were divided into themselves by using the preexisting world, and that Yhwach, if his plans came to fruition, would've reverted the Cosmology back into its previous state, which is the Primordial World described in Soul King's backstory.

 

[Adam1396]

It existed before they were created, yes. However, the creation of those realms (I disagree with your usage of Reality here, as I will explain further on. So I won't be using that verbiage for clarity purposes) is contextualized around sectioning off parts of the Primordial World to create separate realms from already existing material. So, the fact it existed, chronologically, before the realms were created isn't evidence that it is independent from them, when the original basis of these realms existed during when the Concept of Black was present, and until proven otherwise, metaphysically contingent on that reality.

Them possessing different timelines isn't the same as them possessing different realities. It's still the same "reality" as the Primordial World - it's just composed differently. It's why, like I said before, when Yhwach was in the process of collapsing the realms, it was leading to the consequence of the original Primordial World becoming actualized again. That's clear refutation to the idea these realms are explicitly, totally, separate from the previous iteration of the Cosmology.

It definitely isn't "headcanon" when it's explicitly stated that the realms were divided into themselves by using the preexisting world, and that Yhwach, if his plans came to fruition, would've reverted the Cosmology back into its previous state, which is the Primordial World described in Soul King's backstory.

Already clarified it, some of these worlds simply didn’t exist in primordial world in any shape including the superior one (garganta) which contains them and sustains their existence. Garganta is the main reality here since it contains other realities. And start of it started history of all other realities within it.

While you are also ignoring the the word "creation", context of "history".

Linked primordial chaos so that you can understand the state of primordial world completely falls into the category of primordial chaos. Different matters existing together just makes the case even stringer. In which case all the evidence also implies precreation, creation, post creation state. And explains the bleach cosmology in a much better way. Probably you should look into that page.
This all are argument for "supportive" evidence it's existing before creation. It's one of the way of proving if it predates the creation or can survive realities destruction which it can a way to prove it's independent of realities.

As you can see in CM page, main factor is independence of the subject in question.
Here ichibei controls the the blackness of nothingness itself. By definition subject is absent here while the concept exists or the concept still exists in nonexistent state which ichibei can manipulate however you word it. It's straight up independence.

I am fine with you thinking these realities destruction, creation doesn’t matter. And I do agree their individual destruction shouldn’t be considering factor here. (For context of concept type 1). But the idea of birth from and after destruction of all these realities together to a primordial orlderless chunk of mass (a portion of which were separated) doesn’t disporove the idea of reality creation destruction and it doesn’t matter much here.
Although it's blatant wrong to say gargatana, creation, destruction doesn’t matter when it's factually the main one reality that didn’t exist in primordial sea and differentiating factor between order and orderlessness of the reality (considering reality by your definition in this paragraph)

It would be better if you focus on main evidence of independence.

 

[Adam1396]

Given that the current realms are technically just pieces of the previous one, I'm not sure it's accurate to say the concept in question here truly predated the reality it governs, and so I think this probably isn't Type 1.

I agree with David and Deceived

I updated op.
Deceived only talk about supportive evidence and I addressed it anyway

So there's still nothing against main evidence for independence. I would like to know about your update thoughts

 

[YmTheSuper]

You still didn't prove that the concept of black didn't exist in the Primordial World. (if that concept existed then Ichibei was controlling a concept that existed and had objects under that concept, nothing proving its independence)

 

[Adam1396]

You still didn't prove that the concept of black didn't exist in the Primordial World. (if that concept existed then Ichibei was controlling a concept that existed and had objects under that concept, nothing proving its independence)

I even addressed this point as well lmfao. Concept created bfeore, after realities both can be type 1. What matters is independence. If a verse shows it existed before the reality came into existence or survived that reality destruction is just one of ways to prove it. Not the only way.

And I provided that only as supportive argument. My main argument for it's independence isn’t that one.

What you just said is concept creation, not manipulation. Stop derailing the thread.

 

[YmTheSuper]

I even addressed this point as well lmfao. Concept created bfeore, after realities both can be type 1. What matters is independence. If a verse shows it existed before the reality came into existence or survived that reality destruction is just one of ways to prove it. Not the only way.

And I provided that only as supportive argument. My main argument for it's independence isn’t that one.

What you just said is concept creation, not manipulation. Stop derailing the thread.

1)Even if it's a supporting argument then it should be refuted if it's incorrect so that if the revision is accepted then it wouldn't be added as justification.
2)It's the argument that you started your thread with, It’s your main argument.
3)I wasn't talking about concept creation, I was saying that Ichibei had the power to control a concept that you that existed, thus disproving your point.

But then let's look at your other arguments:

The keyword here is "everything". If he can name type 1 concepts, controlling or governing another type 1 concept is not far fetched or invalid assumption.

Prove then that he named concepts that are independent. Saying that he named "everything" or "all phenomena" is too broad to just say he named concepts that are independent of existence. (Since phenomenon and everything are things that exist, they would automatically be considered type 2 until proven otherwise)

Ichibei literally has nothingness manipulation on his profile further showing his nonexistent manipulation and how existence of object is irrelevant to this.

He doesn't have nothingness manipulation in his profile

Strengthening point is, he has that under the radar of same thing "summon blackness from night from future (which is not even physical blackness, it's phenomenon, that's also from future), crushing everything "blackly" to noghtingness. He even refers this place of nothingness as "pitch black hell" implying he can manipulate blackness of absolute nothingness.

The "Crushing someone into nothingness" is just a description of his existence erasure, he is erasing someone's existence by turning them into "nothingness". Nothing here says he is manipulating a concept that doesn't exist.

 

[Adam1396]

1)Even if it's a supporting argument then it should be refuted if it's incorrect so that if the revision is accepted then it wouldn't be added as justification.
2)It's the argument that you started your thread with, It’s your main argument.
3)I wasn't talking about concept creation, I was saying that Ichibei had the power to control a concept that you that existed, thus disproving your point.

But then let's look at your other arguments:

Prove then that he named concepts that are independent. Saying that he named "everything" or "all phenomena" is too broad to just say he named concepts that are independent of existence. (Since phenomenon and everything are things that exist, they would automatically be considered type 2 until proven otherwise)

He doesn't have nothingness manipulation in his profile

The "Crushing someone into nothingness" is just a description of his existence erasure, he is erasing someone's existence by turning them into "nothingness". Nothing here says he is manipulating a concept that doesn't exist.

1. I refuted every argument against it even if it’s

1)Even if it's a supporting argument then it should be refuted if it's incorrect so that if the revision is accepted then it wouldn't be added as justification.
2)It's the argument that you started your thread with, It’s your main argument.
3)I wasn't talking about concept creation, I was saying that Ichibei had the power to control a concept that you that existed, thus disproving your point.

But then let's look at your other arguments:

Prove then that he named concepts that are independent. Saying that he named "everything" or "all phenomena" is too broad to just say he named concepts that are independent of existence. (Since phenomenon and everything are things that exist, they would automatically be considered type 2 until proven otherwise)

He doesn't have nothingness manipulation in his profile

The "Crushing someone into nothingness" is just a description of his existence erasure, he is erasing someone's existence by turning them into "nothingness". Nothing here says he is manipulating a concept that doesn't exist.

1. Except it hasn’t been reputed. I gave counter to every argument sorounding this proving reality destruction and creation happening. And I am not talking about individual realities.
2. That's the whole purpose of me updating the OP. Pay attention. You thinking yourself it is the main argument doesn’t matter here.
3.

You still didn't prove that the concept of black didn't exist in the Primordial World. (if that concept existed then Ichibei was controlling a concept that existed and had objects under that concept, nothing proving its independence)

You are blatantly talking about concept creation here. Already existing, later came into existence it's irrelevant contextually. When ichibei was born, when concept was born is irrelevant, what he is manipulating is relavan and if the concept he is manipulating is independent or not.

Now let's move onto your next part of comment which is wild nonsense and heavily manipulated by personal emotion undoubtedly.
1. This is another minor supportive evidence. Phenomenon is indeed broad term, but the important thing here is "everything". Phenomenon are default type 2 concept, I don’t even need to address this incredible nonsense. Even some of the physical phenomenons are rated as type 1 such as space, time.

2. This point is even funnier. He literally has void manipulation on his profile. You don't even need to read more than first line from the wiki page to know it's nothingness manipulation, even his statement makes it clear as daylight.

3. No it's not simple ee. His whole ability set up is on metaphysical level (even within fiction. Since even souls are metaphysical stuff from physical pov). Even in his sealed form he could cut metaphysical thing like name. With inferior moves could wipe out name, it would be weird for him to not erase names as well in his ultimate move when he explicitly mentions "everything".

4. He didn’t just say turning everything into nothingness, you missed the main point.
It's "blackly" turning everything into nothingness.
And the nothingness (absence of existence) once again is refered as "pitch black hell".

Ultimately you just ignored all the main evidence and couldn't even grasp such simple argument when even the statement kinda explains blackness independency word for word.
Didn’t really brimg anything new on the table rather going backward.

So stop derailing the thread. We don’t care about feelings here.

 

[FinePoint]

They technically and literally are not pieces of privous one. Only soul society can be considered piece (vaguely) but that itself was stated to be created. Matter if yhwach succeded it would form another form of realities doesn’t change the fact these realities are started and finished, did not exist will not exist anymore.


Garganta the supeior space time continuum did not exist so I don’t think it's plausible to say current reality are pieces of older one when biggest one containing them isn't.

And main point here is independence of the subject in question.
Concept even born after reality can be considered type 1 if it's independent.

Well if even a small piece of the previous realm still persists, then it leads to the same result.

The influence of a concept can grow or shrink overtime, but so long as it's ultimately linked both ways to what it influences, or we don't have evidence to the contrary, then it is Type 2.