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Not really. If power levels aren't used, then being able to oneshot someone and that meaning that you are only 20% stronger then them would be wrong.
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Battle of the DBS' Buff Bois - Broly vs Toppo
- Thread starter The_2nd_Existential_Seed
- Start date
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No, it wouldn't be, it would just be impossible to verify also what i said is unrelated to power level since what i said is 'DB characters from similar level can blitz each other in short burst, same for one shotting', we see it happen in almost every fight.DragonEmperor23 said:
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Can you give examples of characters on similar levels instantly oneshotting the other?
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Goku wasn't comparable with Recoome and Raditz at all. He stomped one and was getting stomped by the other. And Raditz never one shotted him. Not to mention Gohan was weakened.
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What HST said for both the Goku examples. What point in the fight are you talking about for SP Cell vs Gohan?
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@Dragomer
Words are irrelevant, actions are what matter. Just because Toppo is saying Hakai like Beerus did, doesn't mean his attack is the exact same thing. Toppo's attacks are clearly the same as that thing that Goku and Frieza resisted, and not the same thing that Sidra did to that city, or Beerus did to Zamasu.
Energy of Destruction is the Energy of Hakai - that's the translation. And Energy of Destruction in the form of a Ki Blast, that is what is visually shown to us. It is a Ki blast with Hakai properties, but it isn't the same exact thing as the Hakai that we saw Beerus used on Zamasu.
They are not considered the same thing, because they just aren't the same thing. They are visually different and work in completely different ways.
That's called Backwards Scaling, which isn't allowed on the wiki. Just because a character has shown resistance in a later point in his life, does not mean we scale that to his earlier points in his life.
And actually, from your logic. If it was the properties of Ki that was resisting the EE effects of Hakai, then that would mean Kid Goku or everyone in Dragon Ball would have an innate resistance to EE on the level of their AP, because everyone in the series uses Ki, then they would have such a resistance on the same level of their attack potency.
Which is illogical and isn't used on the wiki. Only those shown with the resistance are stated to have it on their page. Goku doesn't have Vegeta's Absolute Zero resistance, and neither does Vegeta in an earlier point of his life. We don't backward scale, nor do we base resistances on the level of Ki of a being.
A myriad of reasons are possible:
To get it off him perhaps? To show his superiority in manipulating the energy of a god? Or maybe it is because he wanted to **** with Goku? You know, the thing he literally did right after he condensed the ball.
Anything is possible, and since Frieza didn't give his reasoning for doing such an action, we are left to make assumptions based on what is logical in the scenario and these characters like my examples above.
And just because you can resist the EE properties of an attack, does that mean you are going to ignore it and move on with your day. Wouldn't you try and get out of it? I know I would.
And it certainly is a myth, I'll quote Kepekley23's list of examples of such:
"1. Dabura's spit could work on stronger foes.
2. Guldo's time-stop could work on stronger foes
3. Ginyu's Body Change specifically targets stronger foes.
4. Akkuman's Devilmite Beam is made for stronger, evil foes.
5. Majin Boo's Candy Beam works on stronger foes.
6. Mafuba works on stronger foes.
7. General Blue's paralysis works on stronger foes.
8. Babidi's Majin Spell is literally meant to trap those who dwarf him in power and make them his servants. It's stated that Vegeta is only able to resist it because of his sheer drive to fight Goku (thus giving him a resistance to it)"
And I believe there are some he left out, like Buu's Absorption abilities.
So yeah, the whole AP > Hax argument in Dragon Ball has been debunked with countless examples in the series as I said.
My words were because, on the wiki, if you aren't happy with how a character is rated or what abilities a character has, then you need to go make a CRT. It wasn't a personal attack or anything, and I am sorry if you took it as such.
With that having been said, I am not playing a victim, nor am I trying to silence this debate because your "not being nice". I am just giving you constructive criticism on your character so that you can grow as a person.
Insulting others and belittling another's arguments is not a very productive way to show someone why you think you are right, and that they are misconstrued. It's a way to silence arguments, and when you do that - then what is the point of debating at all?
I am not playing a victim because I think "you're a meanie", nor am I insulting you. I am evaluating your character, and mention some flaws that I see, so you can grow as a person and as a debater.
I am sorry if you take offense to that.
- At this point, you should stop quoting my comments as it is frowned upon to quote such a large body of text*
Words are irrelevant, actions are what matter. Just because Toppo is saying Hakai like Beerus did, doesn't mean his attack is the exact same thing. Toppo's attacks are clearly the same as that thing that Goku and Frieza resisted, and not the same thing that Sidra did to that city, or Beerus did to Zamasu.
Energy of Destruction is the Energy of Hakai - that's the translation. And Energy of Destruction in the form of a Ki Blast, that is what is visually shown to us. It is a Ki blast with Hakai properties, but it isn't the same exact thing as the Hakai that we saw Beerus used on Zamasu.
They are not considered the same thing, because they just aren't the same thing. They are visually different and work in completely different ways.
That's called Backwards Scaling, which isn't allowed on the wiki. Just because a character has shown resistance in a later point in his life, does not mean we scale that to his earlier points in his life.
And actually, from your logic. If it was the properties of Ki that was resisting the EE effects of Hakai, then that would mean Kid Goku or everyone in Dragon Ball would have an innate resistance to EE on the level of their AP, because everyone in the series uses Ki, then they would have such a resistance on the same level of their attack potency.
Which is illogical and isn't used on the wiki. Only those shown with the resistance are stated to have it on their page. Goku doesn't have Vegeta's Absolute Zero resistance, and neither does Vegeta in an earlier point of his life. We don't backward scale, nor do we base resistances on the level of Ki of a being.
A myriad of reasons are possible:
To get it off him perhaps? To show his superiority in manipulating the energy of a god? Or maybe it is because he wanted to **** with Goku? You know, the thing he literally did right after he condensed the ball.
Anything is possible, and since Frieza didn't give his reasoning for doing such an action, we are left to make assumptions based on what is logical in the scenario and these characters like my examples above.
And just because you can resist the EE properties of an attack, does that mean you are going to ignore it and move on with your day. Wouldn't you try and get out of it? I know I would.
And it certainly is a myth, I'll quote Kepekley23's list of examples of such:
"1. Dabura's spit could work on stronger foes.
2. Guldo's time-stop could work on stronger foes
3. Ginyu's Body Change specifically targets stronger foes.
4. Akkuman's Devilmite Beam is made for stronger, evil foes.
5. Majin Boo's Candy Beam works on stronger foes.
6. Mafuba works on stronger foes.
7. General Blue's paralysis works on stronger foes.
8. Babidi's Majin Spell is literally meant to trap those who dwarf him in power and make them his servants. It's stated that Vegeta is only able to resist it because of his sheer drive to fight Goku (thus giving him a resistance to it)"
And I believe there are some he left out, like Buu's Absorption abilities.
So yeah, the whole AP > Hax argument in Dragon Ball has been debunked with countless examples in the series as I said.
My words were because, on the wiki, if you aren't happy with how a character is rated or what abilities a character has, then you need to go make a CRT. It wasn't a personal attack or anything, and I am sorry if you took it as such.
With that having been said, I am not playing a victim, nor am I trying to silence this debate because your "not being nice". I am just giving you constructive criticism on your character so that you can grow as a person.
Insulting others and belittling another's arguments is not a very productive way to show someone why you think you are right, and that they are misconstrued. It's a way to silence arguments, and when you do that - then what is the point of debating at all?
I am not playing a victim because I think "you're a meanie", nor am I insulting you. I am evaluating your character, and mention some flaws that I see, so you can grow as a person and as a debater.
I am sorry if you take offense to that.
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So you know better than Toppo what he is doing ? once again, that's just nonsense, the show contradict your claim so your claim is wrong, don't try to argue the characters are suddenly dumb because what they say and show don't match your claims, it's not a valid argument.
Once again, there is no ki involved, destruction energy is it's own thing, stop making stuff up, it's own energy.
Once again, we consider it as the same and they do the exact same thing, if you ain't happy, make a CRT.
Except that by your logic, it's their inherent being who allow them to resist, so Kid Goku should resist it too, he is the same being as DBS Goku, it's not my fault if your argument is just that nonsensical.
No, because their ki is not strong enough, you fail at trying to use my argument against me.
It's perfectly logical since it's what we saw on screen, Goku, Vegeta and Freezer resisted EE through raw before on screen and 'a weaker character did it' is the whole reason behind portal creation being so widespread so it is a allowed on the wiki.
Why would he need to get it off of him if it's doing nothing to him and can litteraly just walk out of it ? and how would it **** with Goku if Goku could have no selled it as a baby since his being is inherently resistant to Universe level + EE ?
We are not left with anything, he clearly did it with raw power and had to go golden because he didn't have enough raw power outside of it to resist it, that's obvious, clear as day and happen on screen, your argument is nonsensical and you're reaching way too hard, it's ridiculous.
Given that the ONLY property of the attack is EE, why would you care ? and you can just walk out if it if it's doing nothing to you.
Once again, it's less of a myth than Vegeta, Goku and Freezer suddenly being chosens ones who are immunes to EE for no reasons.
And you clearly didn't understand what i meant or you didn't read what i said about Guldo, different hax need different level of power to resist to, Dabura's spit certainly wouldn't work on Buu, let alone on Beerus, Guldo's time ability would be resisted like Hit's; If Blue and Roshi's hypnosis and paralysis worked no matter the strenght, Roshi would have used it against Freezer in ROF to insta win, we saw how usefull the candy beam is when it did jackshit to Vegeto, same for absorption, Mafuba litteraly ended with Frost grabbing it and Babidi's spell can be litteraly countered by a strong mind, which basicaly come with a strong ki.
So yeah, that doesn't help your 'Freezer and co are just inherently resistant to EE' case and is completly irrelevant to what i actualy said.
It was a dumb taunt and now you're just playing the victim cause you don't like your own medecine and once again, you're the one going against litteraly all the concensus discussed and reached about what we are talking about so you go and make those CRT if you ain't happy.
You are whinning and playing the victim, probably in an attempt to derail the discussion because you realised how bad your argiment was, otherwise you would have dropped that point already and wouldn't have used 1/3 of your comment to just whine.
and trying to derail the discussion by whinning isn't productive either.
I don't care about your evaluation of my character, stay on topic and stop whinning for god's sake.
I don't need the advice of a guy who doesn't even look at what is actualy accepted on the wiki before taunting people with 'go make a CRT' and try derailing the discussion, you made your bed, now lie in it and stay on topic.
Once again, there is no ki involved, destruction energy is it's own thing, stop making stuff up, it's own energy.
Once again, we consider it as the same and they do the exact same thing, if you ain't happy, make a CRT.
Except that by your logic, it's their inherent being who allow them to resist, so Kid Goku should resist it too, he is the same being as DBS Goku, it's not my fault if your argument is just that nonsensical.
No, because their ki is not strong enough, you fail at trying to use my argument against me.
It's perfectly logical since it's what we saw on screen, Goku, Vegeta and Freezer resisted EE through raw before on screen and 'a weaker character did it' is the whole reason behind portal creation being so widespread so it is a allowed on the wiki.
Why would he need to get it off of him if it's doing nothing to him and can litteraly just walk out of it ? and how would it **** with Goku if Goku could have no selled it as a baby since his being is inherently resistant to Universe level + EE ?
We are not left with anything, he clearly did it with raw power and had to go golden because he didn't have enough raw power outside of it to resist it, that's obvious, clear as day and happen on screen, your argument is nonsensical and you're reaching way too hard, it's ridiculous.
Given that the ONLY property of the attack is EE, why would you care ? and you can just walk out if it if it's doing nothing to you.
Once again, it's less of a myth than Vegeta, Goku and Freezer suddenly being chosens ones who are immunes to EE for no reasons.
And you clearly didn't understand what i meant or you didn't read what i said about Guldo, different hax need different level of power to resist to, Dabura's spit certainly wouldn't work on Buu, let alone on Beerus, Guldo's time ability would be resisted like Hit's; If Blue and Roshi's hypnosis and paralysis worked no matter the strenght, Roshi would have used it against Freezer in ROF to insta win, we saw how usefull the candy beam is when it did jackshit to Vegeto, same for absorption, Mafuba litteraly ended with Frost grabbing it and Babidi's spell can be litteraly countered by a strong mind, which basicaly come with a strong ki.
So yeah, that doesn't help your 'Freezer and co are just inherently resistant to EE' case and is completly irrelevant to what i actualy said.
It was a dumb taunt and now you're just playing the victim cause you don't like your own medecine and once again, you're the one going against litteraly all the concensus discussed and reached about what we are talking about so you go and make those CRT if you ain't happy.
You are whinning and playing the victim, probably in an attempt to derail the discussion because you realised how bad your argiment was, otherwise you would have dropped that point already and wouldn't have used 1/3 of your comment to just whine.
and trying to derail the discussion by whinning isn't productive either.
I don't care about your evaluation of my character, stay on topic and stop whinning for god's sake.
I don't need the advice of a guy who doesn't even look at what is actualy accepted on the wiki before taunting people with 'go make a CRT' and try derailing the discussion, you made your bed, now lie in it and stay on topic.
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I can see as clear as crystal that you will not budge on your viewpoints and that further debate is simply just a waste of both our times. And personally, I despise wasting my time.
I believe my arguments are sound and have a basis in logic despite your belittlements, and will leave them for others to come and make their own assumptions and opinions about the topics in this debate.
Farewell, and the best of wishes to you.
I believe my arguments are sound and have a basis in logic despite your belittlements, and will leave them for others to come and make their own assumptions and opinions about the topics in this debate.
Farewell, and the best of wishes to you.
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Broly godstomps. I really can't see how it's even a debate tbh.
Ikari Broly is a much better matchup, but Toppo would probably still take the heavy L.
Ikari Broly is a much better matchup, but Toppo would probably still take the heavy L.
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If resistance to existence erasure is a natural part of Goku and Vegeta's being why would it not be a part of Broly's, who's not only also a pure saiyan but has infinitely superior genetics to them?
Plus we see that both Goku and Frieza needed to power up to higher forms to better resist it, so they clearly are just overpowering it.
Also Hakai and Energy of Hakai do the exact same thing, one is just shot as an energy blast and the other is dealt right out the hand. Plus the terms Hakai and Energy of Hakai are used interchangably, with both Toppo and Beerus having referred to these blasts as just "Hakai". There's nothing to suggest that one can be overpowered through higher strength and the other is some ultra durability negater that works on people orders of magnitude stronger unless they have a completely unmentioned and unexplained special property to resist it.
Plus we see that both Goku and Frieza needed to power up to higher forms to better resist it, so they clearly are just overpowering it.
Also Hakai and Energy of Hakai do the exact same thing, one is just shot as an energy blast and the other is dealt right out the hand. Plus the terms Hakai and Energy of Hakai are used interchangably, with both Toppo and Beerus having referred to these blasts as just "Hakai". There's nothing to suggest that one can be overpowered through higher strength and the other is some ultra durability negater that works on people orders of magnitude stronger unless they have a completely unmentioned and unexplained special property to resist it.
Dust_Collector
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I recall there was a thread about the whole "AP>Hax in DB" thing and it was decided to not got with that interpretation but just give resistance to those shown to resist the hax.
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^^^^^Dust Collector said:
This is what I thought as well. A character showing resistance to hax, is just a feat from them, nothing more.
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When the character explicitly resists the hax through greater power, then those who are even more powerful than that character logically could also resist it. Just like if someone busts a planet with their own power, then we'd say that someone with greater power is Planet level. Or how we give portal creation to stronger DB characters.
Also even if we want to go with the headcanon that Goku and Vegeta just have some inherent genetic property that makes them resist hakai blasts unrelated to their power, there is no reason why Broly wouldn't also have this property. He's also a pure saiyan and has infinitely superior genetics than Goku and Vegeta.
Also even if we want to go with the headcanon that Goku and Vegeta just have some inherent genetic property that makes them resist hakai blasts unrelated to their power, there is no reason why Broly wouldn't also have this property. He's also a pure saiyan and has infinitely superior genetics than Goku and Vegeta.
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What I meant be "part of their being", I didn't mean the resistance is apart of their genealogy, but I was saying it was not given to them via their Ki level. They have the resistance - not their entire species.Ryukama said:
We see Frieza power up to control and condense the blast, not to resist it - he was fine within it but needed to power up to manipulate it. Goku was being overwhelmed by the sheer power of the attack in base form, and couldn't transform because of it. He didn't try and transform to "increase his resistance" - that just doesn't happen. The properties of Hakai isn't even a thought in each character's minds at this point, it's just surviving a constant onslaught from an overwhelming power.
You're misinterpreting these events.
And I am not saying that one can be overpowered physically and the other negs durability.
I'm saying the energy of destruction, the blasts that Toppo makes, are ki blasts with EE properties. And Vegeta was able to punch the attack away, not because he overpowered the EE through Ki alone, but because he has a resistance to EE and he was able to slap the physical Ki blast, and that if Toppo used Hakai as Beerus did against Zamasu, Vegeta wouldn't have been able to slap it away because there was nothing to slap away.
It is as Dust Collector says, what was decided on the wiki was to not give away resistances based on Ki levels - unless something specifically stated to be done with sheer power like Buu's Portal Creation feat - but to the people who are physically shown to have the resistance.
Simply because of the fact that there are numerous feats of hax not being overpowered by pure Ki, and being used on stronger opponents. Look back at my previous big comment where I quote a list of hax written by Kepekley23 as a few examples.
We just don't scale resistances via Ki on the wiki. Nobody above ToP SSJ Vegeta has resistance to AZ just because he has shown resistance. Nobody above Super Vegito gets resistance to transmutation. Vegeta didn't even get resistance to EE until he fought Toppo. They were not stated to be done through power, but some innate resistance they seem to have.
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"What I meant be "part of their being", I didn't mean the resistance is apart of their genealogy, but I was saying it was not given to them via their Ki level."
And why wouldn't Broly also have this as "part of his being"? He is the exact same race as Goku and Vegeta, just far superior.
"We see Frieza power up to control and condense the blast, not to resist it - he was fine within it but needed to power up to manipulate it. Goku was being overwhelmed by the sheer power of the attack in base form, and couldn't transform because of it. He didn't try and transform to "increase his resistance" - that just doesn't happen. The properties of Hakai isn't even a thought on each character's minds at this point."
Were Goku and Frieza hit by this blast? Yes. Did they get erased? No. That means they resisted the effects of the blast. End of. Also I'm not sure how the fact that Frieza could outright condense, control and negate the effects of the blast on him entirely with his power is somehow proof that he can't resist it with his power. If anything that's the exact opposite. And Frieza did indeed power up in order to better resist the blast. As well as Goku attempting to power up to fight the attack off.
"I'm saying the energy of destruction, the blasts that Toppo makes, are ki blast with EE properties. And Vegeta was able to punch the attack away, not because he overpowered the EE through Ki alone, but because he has a resistance to EE and he was able to slap the physical Ki blast, and that if Toppo used Hakai as Beerus did against Zamasu, Vegeta wouldn't have been able to slap it away because there was nothing to slap away."
We've seen Energy of Hakai just straight up not work if the opponent is overwhelmingly more powerful. Nothing suggests Hakai, which for all intents and purposes is the same attack (with the phrases Hakai and Energy of Hakai even being used interchangeably) besides how it's delivered would work on someone who is also overwhelmingly stronger.
"It is as Dust Collector says, what was decided on the wiki was to not give away resistances based on Ki levels - unless something specifically stated to be done with sheer power like Buu's Portal Creation feat - but to the people who are physically shown to have the resistance."
As for portal creation, it's never outright stated that it's through sheer strength. We just know that it is because we visibly see characters power up and use their power in order to do it, and see that when characters have lesser power they're unable to do it. Just like with resisting the Hakai blasts.
"Simply because of the fact that there are numerous feats of hax not being overpowered by pure Ki, and being used on stronger opponents. Look back at my previous big comment where I quote a list of hax written by Kepekley23 as a few examples."
Also the fact that other haxes can work on stronger people doesn't matter when these Hakai blasts are being talked about have been negated by higher power. Mafuba or whatever has nothing to do with this. Also as Dragomer pointed out not all of those examples even work perfectly.
Even then are you seriously saying Hyssop's Absolute Zero attacks would work on Grand Priest but not SSJ Vegeta, or that Monster Carrot could solo the entire verse as long as he can touch them? In DB, every hax is going to have a limit on how powerful of a being it works on even if they do work on somewhat stronger beings. For Toppo, we've seen his limit is someone orders of magnitude weaker than Broly.
"They were not stated to be done through power, but some innate resistance they seem to have."
The whole idea of Base Goku, SSBE Vegeta and and Golden Frieza yet no one else just has some inherent magical property that resists hakai blasts unrelated to their power is something most certainly never stated. Find anywhere in the series where this "innate resistance" unrelated to their power is stated. I can find you Frieza outright using his power to negate a Hakai blast, which you even brought up though.
And why wouldn't Broly also have this as "part of his being"? He is the exact same race as Goku and Vegeta, just far superior.
"We see Frieza power up to control and condense the blast, not to resist it - he was fine within it but needed to power up to manipulate it. Goku was being overwhelmed by the sheer power of the attack in base form, and couldn't transform because of it. He didn't try and transform to "increase his resistance" - that just doesn't happen. The properties of Hakai isn't even a thought on each character's minds at this point."
Were Goku and Frieza hit by this blast? Yes. Did they get erased? No. That means they resisted the effects of the blast. End of. Also I'm not sure how the fact that Frieza could outright condense, control and negate the effects of the blast on him entirely with his power is somehow proof that he can't resist it with his power. If anything that's the exact opposite. And Frieza did indeed power up in order to better resist the blast. As well as Goku attempting to power up to fight the attack off.
"I'm saying the energy of destruction, the blasts that Toppo makes, are ki blast with EE properties. And Vegeta was able to punch the attack away, not because he overpowered the EE through Ki alone, but because he has a resistance to EE and he was able to slap the physical Ki blast, and that if Toppo used Hakai as Beerus did against Zamasu, Vegeta wouldn't have been able to slap it away because there was nothing to slap away."
We've seen Energy of Hakai just straight up not work if the opponent is overwhelmingly more powerful. Nothing suggests Hakai, which for all intents and purposes is the same attack (with the phrases Hakai and Energy of Hakai even being used interchangeably) besides how it's delivered would work on someone who is also overwhelmingly stronger.
"It is as Dust Collector says, what was decided on the wiki was to not give away resistances based on Ki levels - unless something specifically stated to be done with sheer power like Buu's Portal Creation feat - but to the people who are physically shown to have the resistance."
As for portal creation, it's never outright stated that it's through sheer strength. We just know that it is because we visibly see characters power up and use their power in order to do it, and see that when characters have lesser power they're unable to do it. Just like with resisting the Hakai blasts.
"Simply because of the fact that there are numerous feats of hax not being overpowered by pure Ki, and being used on stronger opponents. Look back at my previous big comment where I quote a list of hax written by Kepekley23 as a few examples."
Also the fact that other haxes can work on stronger people doesn't matter when these Hakai blasts are being talked about have been negated by higher power. Mafuba or whatever has nothing to do with this. Also as Dragomer pointed out not all of those examples even work perfectly.
Even then are you seriously saying Hyssop's Absolute Zero attacks would work on Grand Priest but not SSJ Vegeta, or that Monster Carrot could solo the entire verse as long as he can touch them? In DB, every hax is going to have a limit on how powerful of a being it works on even if they do work on somewhat stronger beings. For Toppo, we've seen his limit is someone orders of magnitude weaker than Broly.
"They were not stated to be done through power, but some innate resistance they seem to have."
The whole idea of Base Goku, SSBE Vegeta and and Golden Frieza yet no one else just has some inherent magical property that resists hakai blasts unrelated to their power is something most certainly never stated. Find anywhere in the series where this "innate resistance" unrelated to their power is stated. I can find you Frieza outright using his power to negate a Hakai blast, which you even brought up though.
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@Ryukama Arale's interaction with Beerus is this exact principle.
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Goku and Vegeta have shown resistance - not every Saiyan in existence. So until he tanks a Hakai attack, Broly won't get the resistance.
Did you watch the video I linked? Or read any of my arguments?
Both characters were unaffected by the EE qualities of the attack, them powering up was to try and manipulate the Ki.
Frieza shows he was faking being erased and then powers up to make the energy blast small again, not to resist it better.
Base Goku can't obviously handle dealing with an energy blast that Golden Frieza need to power up to fully control. So he tried doing what Frieza did by trying to shrink the Ki blast by powering up but can't because he's in agony from what is an overwhelming force in his base form - not because he needed to transform to resist Hakai better.
As I said, you are misinterpreting these events.
You are incorrect, the Portal Creation feat was explicitly shown to be done with sheer power alone. Super Buu was able to accomplish the feat. And we see Piccolo and SSJ Gotenks try performing the same thing - they fail and complain they are incapable of doing it. Then Gotenks transforms into a Super Saiyan 3, a form where he is comparable in power to Super Buu, and is shown to be able to accomplish the feat.
It is very explicit in being something done with sheer power. As those who weren't powerful enough weren't capable of doing it.
No other series in existence has this mentality, I don't know why it exists in Dragon Ball.
If someone can overpower an ability either the character who did the feat - and any person who does a similar feat - has a resistance to the ability, or the hax is explicitly stated to have a weakness. Hakai isn't stated to have such a weakness - your just assuming it does because there are characters that resist the ability.
Which frankly makes no sense.
The other haxes in the series goes to show that the "AP > Hax" myth in Dragon Ball is just that, a myth.
And Dragomer's examples are headcanon at best and completely fabricated at worst. Saying that each hax in the series has a certain limit before it can be overpowered is completely baseless and I will debunk each example he used.
No, in my personal headcanon, I'd like to think that G.o.Ds and Angels have immunities of all the hax in Dragon Ball because they are "Gods" like in Dragon Ball FighterZ where they weren't affected by the Power Null Waves.
But it isn't proven through feats in the series, and thus we shouldn't hand out random resistances because of it.
Did you watch the video I linked? Or read any of my arguments?
Both characters were unaffected by the EE qualities of the attack, them powering up was to try and manipulate the Ki.
Frieza shows he was faking being erased and then powers up to make the energy blast small again, not to resist it better.
Base Goku can't obviously handle dealing with an energy blast that Golden Frieza need to power up to fully control. So he tried doing what Frieza did by trying to shrink the Ki blast by powering up but can't because he's in agony from what is an overwhelming force in his base form - not because he needed to transform to resist Hakai better.
As I said, you are misinterpreting these events.
You are incorrect, the Portal Creation feat was explicitly shown to be done with sheer power alone. Super Buu was able to accomplish the feat. And we see Piccolo and SSJ Gotenks try performing the same thing - they fail and complain they are incapable of doing it. Then Gotenks transforms into a Super Saiyan 3, a form where he is comparable in power to Super Buu, and is shown to be able to accomplish the feat.
It is very explicit in being something done with sheer power. As those who weren't powerful enough weren't capable of doing it.
No other series in existence has this mentality, I don't know why it exists in Dragon Ball.
If someone can overpower an ability either the character who did the feat - and any person who does a similar feat - has a resistance to the ability, or the hax is explicitly stated to have a weakness. Hakai isn't stated to have such a weakness - your just assuming it does because there are characters that resist the ability.
Which frankly makes no sense.
The other haxes in the series goes to show that the "AP > Hax" myth in Dragon Ball is just that, a myth.
And Dragomer's examples are headcanon at best and completely fabricated at worst. Saying that each hax in the series has a certain limit before it can be overpowered is completely baseless and I will debunk each example he used.
- Dabura never spat on Buu, so we can't say that it wouldn't affect him or not.
- Guldo's ability wasn't resisted in the slightest unlike Hit's.
- Saying that if a character has an OP ability that he would spam it all the time is ridiculous. Characters don't use their OP abilities because if they did, they would break the story. Yhwach or MCU Thanos are excellent examples of a character not using their OP powers so the story can progress and characters who honestly stand no chance can fight each other.
- It was because of Vegito's slight resistance that he still possessed his powers as a candy.
- It was specifically stated that because of the barrier that Vegito put up that he survived being absorbed by Buu, and that if he didn't put up the barrier he would have been ****** over.
- Roshi was stated to miss with the Mafuba, not that Frost overpowered it by "grabbing it". Frost was shown to be scared that Roshi had such a powerful attack.
- And Vegeta resisted Babidi's mind control through his sheer will and pride, not because of Ki. And saying that a "strong mind" comes from"strong ki" is preposterous, as Babidi had full control over Dabura who was a strong as Cell.
No, in my personal headcanon, I'd like to think that G.o.Ds and Angels have immunities of all the hax in Dragon Ball because they are "Gods" like in Dragon Ball FighterZ where they weren't affected by the Power Null Waves.
But it isn't proven through feats in the series, and thus we shouldn't hand out random resistances because of it.
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It's as frank as this. Goku, Frieza and Vegeta were all hit by Energy of Hakai attacks and did not get their existences erased. Therefore they have resistance to the attack. We even see Frieza explicitly power up to better resist the attack. Therefore we know it's power based. The idea that Base Goku, Golden Frieza and SSBE Vegeta have some inherent magic resistance unrelated to power yet still requires powering up to better resist that no one else does is pure headcanon.
Your logic also puts Hyssop and Monster Carrot as the absolute god tiers of the series. You're assuming some ability will just work on anyone regardless of power unless they have some completely unmentioned "innate resistance" despite that we have visibly seen the attack be overpowered by Frieza. I don't agree wit that and if you keep insisting on this there's not much more I can say.
Your logic also puts Hyssop and Monster Carrot as the absolute god tiers of the series. You're assuming some ability will just work on anyone regardless of power unless they have some completely unmentioned "innate resistance" despite that we have visibly seen the attack be overpowered by Frieza. I don't agree wit that and if you keep insisting on this there's not much more I can say.
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" Your logic also puts freaking Hyssop and Monster Carrot as the absolute god tiers of the series."
Just saying, in an actual in verse fight,the actual god tiers would blitz Hyssop and MC before they can think, rendering their hax useless. Just having a durability negating ability that works on a God tier doesn't make you the God Tier or stronger than the God tier.
Just saying, in an actual in verse fight,the actual god tiers would blitz Hyssop and MC before they can think, rendering their hax useless. Just having a durability negating ability that works on a God tier doesn't make you the God Tier or stronger than the God tier.
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Okay so assuming Hyssop and Monster Carrot don't get blitzed do you really believe that they would have limitless hax and that they could kill any character regardless of how powerful they are?
And even if they did, Hakai just isn't such hax. We directly saw it get overpowered by Frieza.
Right as he powered up to resist and negate the attack, he said "Watch my power" not "Watch my innate magical resistance unrelated to my power with which only I and two saiyans but no one else in the multiverse possesses"
And even if they did, Hakai just isn't such hax. We directly saw it get overpowered by Frieza.
Right as he powered up to resist and negate the attack, he said "Watch my power" not "Watch my innate magical resistance unrelated to my power with which only I and two saiyans but no one else in the multiverse possesses"
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How many times must I repeat myself? Did you even watch the links I posted?Ryukama said:
You are misinterpreting the events.
Frieza and Goku did not power up to RESIST the energy of destruction. They powered up to MANIPULATE the energy by condensing it into a small ball.
This is exactly what Frieza does and what Goku tries to do.
And because Golden Frieza had to power up to condense the energy, it is obvious that base Goku can't do the same feat.
Nothing in that scene implies that they were powering up to better resist the Hakai.
Every GoD Tier in the series is MFTL+ and Low 2-C to 2-C. Those characters get blitzed into oblivion and disintegrated into atoms from the sheer AP and speed difference. Just because an ability can work on a God Tier, doesn't mean that God Tier will ever let it affect them.
Do you know how many battles against much haxxier opponents that Dragon Ball characters have won by one-shotting them via AP advantage before they get to use their hax? The same principle applies here.
That's how hax works on this wiki. Unless you show a resistance or are a higher-dimensional being you get affected by the hax. They "ignore conventional durability", that's the point of the hax.
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He says, "Watch my power" and then proceeds to condense the ball into the size of his fist.Ryukama said:
The powering up was to control, manipulate, and condense the ball of energy - not to resist the Hakai. Resisting the effects of Hakai never come up in the scene.
Hell, even when Frieza was overpowered by Toppo's Hakai, he still survived because he has a resistance not because he was stronger than the attack. Showing it's not Ki related.
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Okay so Frieza was able to use sheer power manipulate and cancel out the power an existence erasing attack. I don't know how this does nothing but prove that he can resist these blasts through his sheer power. And again he was powering up in order to lessen the impact of the attack. Goku attempted to power up out of it but he wasn't able to, yet he could still resist the attack. I'm guessing Base Goku just also has this "innate resistance" like Frieza and SSJ Vegeta.
Okay so if Grand Priest stood there and let Hyssop freeze him he could even though he couldn't do it to SSJ Vegeta? I feel like that is using headcanon to inflate the abilities of a fodder character far beyond what is reasonably shown of it and clearly going against the narrative.
Even if I guess Hyssop has some ultra attack that can slay angels, again Hakai blasts just aren't that. Frieza directly overpowered them and stated "Watch my power" not "Watch my innate magical resistance unrelated to my power with which only I and two saiyans but no one else in the multiverse possess"
Okay so if Grand Priest stood there and let Hyssop freeze him he could even though he couldn't do it to SSJ Vegeta? I feel like that is using headcanon to inflate the abilities of a fodder character far beyond what is reasonably shown of it and clearly going against the narrative.
Even if I guess Hyssop has some ultra attack that can slay angels, again Hakai blasts just aren't that. Frieza directly overpowered them and stated "Watch my power" not "Watch my innate magical resistance unrelated to my power with which only I and two saiyans but no one else in the multiverse possess"
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"Okay so assuming Hyssop and Monster Carrot don't get blitzed do you really believe that they would have limitless hax and that they could kill any character regardless of how powerful they are?"
I mean, yeah that's kind of how durability negating abilities on opponents that don't resist them work. Plus, I don't really see how you can just be stronger to ignore absolute zero. It's a temperature, your physical strength has nothing to do with it.
I mean, yeah that's kind of how durability negating abilities on opponents that don't resist them work. Plus, I don't really see how you can just be stronger to ignore absolute zero. It's a temperature, your physical strength has nothing to do with it.
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Energy of Hakai is an energy blast with EE properties. He's manipulating the energy of the attack, not the EE properties of the attack.
What we see:
Frieza powers up -------> energy ball shrinks
Goku tries to power up -------> energy ball begins to shrink, but he can't fully control the energy blast in his base form, so he is incapable of doing it and the energy ball expands again to its original size.
Saying that they powered up to better resist Hakai is complete headcanon and ignores the events we physically see on screen.
Yes, that's how hax works. Why are you acting like this is a new concept? Professor X from X-Men is physically a paraplegic, but that doesn't affect the strength of his mind hax. Goku can't no-sell Charles's mind hax just because he has physical power that is infinitely superior. That's not how hax works.
Frieza said, "Watch my power" and shrunk the energy of Hakai. He was shown to be completely fine within the energy blast. Powering up didn't make him "more fine" within the blast or anything like that, it just shrunk the energy.
Where are you getting this from?
We don't give out resistacne based on power levels, the profiles on the wiki prove as such.
What we see:
Frieza powers up -------> energy ball shrinks
Goku tries to power up -------> energy ball begins to shrink, but he can't fully control the energy blast in his base form, so he is incapable of doing it and the energy ball expands again to its original size.
Saying that they powered up to better resist Hakai is complete headcanon and ignores the events we physically see on screen.
Yes, that's how hax works. Why are you acting like this is a new concept? Professor X from X-Men is physically a paraplegic, but that doesn't affect the strength of his mind hax. Goku can't no-sell Charles's mind hax just because he has physical power that is infinitely superior. That's not how hax works.
Frieza said, "Watch my power" and shrunk the energy of Hakai. He was shown to be completely fine within the energy blast. Powering up didn't make him "more fine" within the blast or anything like that, it just shrunk the energy.
Where are you getting this from?
We don't give out resistacne based on power levels, the profiles on the wiki prove as such.
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So you seriously believe that some random fodder secretly having a limitless ability that if they were able to use could slay all the gods with is less far fetched headcanon than simply saying that gods would overpower them just as infinitely inferior beings have before?
But fine even if we're hyping these guys beyond any reasonable level cause their hax hasn't shown a cap on how powerful of a person it can work on, Toppo's has.
"I don't see how you can have mass yet be faster than light". It's fiction. Vegeta powered up his ki (a fictional property) to negate the absolute zero. So why shouldn't someone with vastly more powerful ki than him also resist it? This is basic powerscaling.
But fine even if we're hyping these guys beyond any reasonable level cause their hax hasn't shown a cap on how powerful of a person it can work on, Toppo's has.
"I don't see how you can have mass yet be faster than light". It's fiction. Vegeta powered up his ki (a fictional property) to negate the absolute zero. So why shouldn't someone with vastly more powerful ki than him also resist it? This is basic powerscaling.
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It's as if you never played an RPG, when you leveled up, your strenght and magic stats gets a boost, yes but your magic defense also get a boost, just like your normal defense, do some game lack magic defense ? yes but it doesn't change those who do have it and different magic attack need a diifferent magic defense to be resisted.
replaced 'magic' with hax and you have basicaly how it works in DB.
It works especialy well as a comparison since Toriyama was heavily involved in a lot of RPGs.
replaced 'magic' with hax and you have basicaly how it works in DB.
It works especialy well as a comparison since Toriyama was heavily involved in a lot of RPGs.
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@Warren Frieza was less impacted by the blast as he powered up, and obviously outright negating the strength of a hax through your power means you're resisting the hax with your power. Also you can't keep calling everything headcanon as you're asserting that Base Goku, Golden Frieza and SSBE Vegeta just have some magical innate resistance that no one else including the highest deities in the multiverse has that's unrelated to power yet you still need higher power to resist better is something that's canon. Please find anywhere in the series in which any of this is stated. You're simply adopting this site's absolutist "hax always works on everyone without an explicit resistance" and acting like all other narrative series follow our guidelines, even when there is proof contrary. Frieza outright overpowered the attack and attributed it to his power.
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Yes, that's what Hax is.Ryukama said:
Strength is irrelevant if you have an ability that negates the need for conventional strength.
This happens in every fictional setting in existence - and Dragon Ball is no exception, the examples I listed are proof as such.
And Toppo's physical Ki blasts were knocked away from Vegeta because Vegeta's strength exceeded Toppo's and can slap away the blast AND that Vegeta resisted the EE properties of the attack - allowing him to touch it.
Saying something is Fiction doesn't mean you through all logic out the window and just randomly hand out powers or resistances to characters who don't show such abilities.
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" "I don't see how you can have mass yet be faster than light". It's fiction. Vegeta powered up his ki (a fictional property) to negate the absolute zero. So why shouldn't someone with vastly more powerful ki than him also resist it? This is basic powerscaling."
Well, yeah but we still apply real life things to it, calucations exist. There's a difference between logic dictating your physical strength doesn't help against absolute zero and something like Saint Seiya where the Author says that being faster than light means time stop doesn't work on you. The first means Vegeta gets AZ resistance, the second means we just give time stop resistance to the Saints that have shown it.
Well, yeah but we still apply real life things to it, calucations exist. There's a difference between logic dictating your physical strength doesn't help against absolute zero and something like Saint Seiya where the Author says that being faster than light means time stop doesn't work on you. The first means Vegeta gets AZ resistance, the second means we just give time stop resistance to the Saints that have shown it.
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You're the one who is randomly claiming that fodder characters have limitless abilities that can slay the highest gods in the series and trying to apply a fan wiki'a broad guidelines towards all narratives. You're presumptively exaggerating other characters' abilities far more severely than I am.
Also Jiren negated Hit's Time Skip through higher strength. And again right here, multiple characters have overpowered Hakai. And now you're trying to make an excuse for Vegeta overpowering the Hakai blasts by saying "Oh well you need both higher strength AND this made up innate property of mine that only Base Goku, SSBE Vegeta and Golden Frieza arbitrarily and inexplicably have to resist it! Saying otherwise is headcanon" instead of going with the Occam's razor of saying Vegeta just simply overpowered the attack all together.
Also Jiren negated Hit's Time Skip through higher strength. And again right here, multiple characters have overpowered Hakai. And now you're trying to make an excuse for Vegeta overpowering the Hakai blasts by saying "Oh well you need both higher strength AND this made up innate property of mine that only Base Goku, SSBE Vegeta and Golden Frieza arbitrarily and inexplicably have to resist it! Saying otherwise is headcanon" instead of going with the Occam's razor of saying Vegeta just simply overpowered the attack all together.
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Did you even read what you linked or you are just that far into your nonsense and inhability to actualy know how thing actual work on this wiki ?Warren Valion said:
'Having such abilities alone will not necessarily guarantee victory unless they have feats on such a scale that they can prove effective even against opponents with equal or even superior statistics to the user.'
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Frieza wasn't impacted by the technique in the slightest, what are you talking about?Ryukama said:
He put on a performance of being erased by the attack, laugh at his opponent's happiness, and then powered up to condense the energy blast.
I implore you to show me where Frieza is powering up to "better resist the hax of EE" and not to condense the ball - which is what he did and what Goku tried doing.
You're simply adopting this site's absolutist "hax always works on everyone without and explicit resistance" and acting like all other narrative series follow our guidelines
Which is why I gave examples of that not being the case in Dragon Ball and explained that you are simply misinterpreting the events.
Hax works on stronger characters in Dragon Ball, just like everywhere else.
I'm also not saying that the G.o.Ds and Angels don't have the resistance - but they haven't shown it, and until they do we can't just give them abilities. How is that far-fetched in the slightest?
