ben10(omnitrix) Immeasurable speed downgrade

[Georredannea15]

If we go on giving the example of infinite speed for immeasurable speed, we will get nowhere here because the two are very different. What Reiner says is valid by default for infinite speed but "not valid by default" for immeasurable speed


Also DBH characters are not immeasurable for this reason, they are immeasurable speeds because they travel directly with their pure speed in different flowing timelines. The situation here is a bit different

 

[Reiner04]

Eitherway, waiting for staff seems best if nothing new to add.

This could have been Infinite, as long as there was enough argument (but as far as I know there is no time in white void, even for this reason Maltrunat's powers did not work there, so again there may be problems with scaling). But this is still not Immeasurable. In order for it to be immeasurable, you need to go into the past-future your pure speed.

"There is no time" time doesn’t matter since imm, and thats just in beginning, it'll go through all of spacetime eventually as we know. And explosion can't have teleportation or time travel abilities without any sort of evidence. So I Disagree.

 

[Hellformer]

Eitherway, waiting for staff seems best if nothing new to add.

Okay

 

[Aolphl]

Nobody is saying Omnitrix has immeasurable reaction speed for destroying a 2-A structure so do not strawman the argument.

Funny thing: Cosmology is 2-A Possibly 1-B, and Reiner said: "An explosion that can reach every corner of multiverse is immeasurable speed."

The Annihilargh explosion creates the infinite hyper time stream i.e. past, present and future of all the trees(in context to what professor paradox mentioned). So this would include covering all the possible timelines and creating the flow of it. Omnitrix reacting faster than the big bang would make it faster than the flow of time which is by default Immeasurable speed.

This is not Immeasurable.

Clearly ignoring the evidence

The things that CN said do not make any sense here. CN states that Alien X is Omnipotent, but this is not proof in a real sense.

Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate.

 

[Hellformer]

Funny thing: Cosmology is 2-A Possibly 1-B, and Reiner said: "An explosion that can reach every corner of multiverse is immeasurable speed."

The Cosmology is literally 1-B, tell me you didn't even look at the page without telling me you didn't. The 2-A, possibly 1-B rating is given to the hyper time stream only.

This is not Immeasurable.

You can dodge all day and ignore the evidence but cannot change the fact

The things that CN said do not make any sense here. CN states that Alien X is Omnipotent, but this is not proof in a real sense.

Omnipotent in the sense most powerful in his own verse and not cross verse so stop strawmanning whatever statement/argument you come accross

 

[Aolphl]

The Cosmology is literally 1-B, tell me you didn't even look at the page without telling me you didn't. The 2-A, possibly 1-B rating is given to the hyper time stream only.

I know how cosmology works, I could discuss it here indefinitely, but that would be to derail the topic, so I'll ignore it.

You can dodge all day and ignore the evidence but cannot change the fact

Immeasurable speed doesn't work like that. When you create or destroy a universe, it will not gain this Immeasurable speed. Immeasurable Speed is simply; going into the past or the future with your pure speed. It is not about creating or destroying something. Your logic is very strange, if we look at your logic, a Tier 2 and above universe/multiverse-destroying character needs to get Immeasurable.

Omnipotent in the sense most powerful in his own verse

I don't have any problem with that.

and not cross verse so stop strawmanning whatever statement/argument you come accross

Mr. Fallacies, you need to learn to read the things I write. The things that CN or any author says are in themselves inadequate/invalid statements. Taking refuge in CN's statements in an attitude towards OP will not save you, because CN's statements are invalid.

 

[Reiner04]

CN's statements are invalid.

No. Any official guide, episode descriptions are acceptable on its own since they literally expands over the episodes and show. Unless contradicted.

 

[Hellformer]

I know how cosmology works, I could discuss it here indefinitely, but that would be to derail the topic, so I'll ignore it.

If you knew that then you wouldn't have said that the cosmology is 2-A, Possibly 1-B. Instead you would have said the cosmology is 1-B.

Immeasurable speed doesn't work like that. When you create or destroy a universe, it will not gain this Immeasurable speed. Immeasurable Speed is simply; going into the past or the future with your pure speed. It is not about creating or destroying something. Your logic is very strange, if we look at your logic, a Tier 2 and above universe/multiverse-destroying character needs to get Immeasurable.

Depends if you can react to or travel faster than such destructions. An easy example would be Hermes from God of war being able to outrun Helios' light which covers the infinite underworld in a finite time. This is why Hermes has infinite speed. Similarly if the big bang creates the flow of time and something can react faster than it's flow then it's clear cut Immeasurable speed without a doubt

I don't have any problem with that.

Then why bringing it up

Mr. Fallacies, you need to learn to read the things I write. The things that CN or any author says are in themselves inadequate/invalid statements. Taking refuge in CN's statements in an attitude towards OP will not save you, because CN's statements are invalid.

Prove how it's wrong? The statement clearly says that the fate of the entire Universe is in a time war at the beginning of the time which is literally what the plot of that episode is i.e., traveling to the beginning of the time and stopping maltruant from creating his own universe. So Mr ignorant please come back with an actual argument instead of ignoring the evidence.

 

[Hellformer]

No. Any official guide, episode descriptions are acceptable on its own since they literally expands over the episodes and show. Unless contradicted.

Literally

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

Nobody is saying Omnitrix has immeasurable reaction speed for destroying a 2-A structure so do not strawman the argument. The Annihilargh explosion creates the infinite hyper time stream i.e. past, present and future of all the trees(in context to what professor paradox mentioned). So this would include covering all the possible timelines and creating the flow of it. Omnitrix reacting faster than the big bang would make it faster than the flow of time which is by default Immeasurable speed.

Clearly ignoring the evidence

If their attack can reach everywhere corner of 2-A structure as in explosion or sort, same as an attack that can reach every corner of infinite universe gets infinite speed, they will get immeasurable/infinite attack speed. It's nothing new. Omnitrix, Alien X, goku, terrasouraus and lots of verses/characters has it.

Stop arguing with them fellas , they will give us a brain haemorrhage

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

But this is still not Immeasurable. In order for it to be immeasurable, you need to go into the past-future your pure speed.

Going through entire hypertimestream is same thing (read Ben 10 Cosmology page, hypertimestream is same thing) so idk what is wrong

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Apparently no one will change their minds, so it's best to wait for the staff.

 

[Firestorm808]

My opinion remains the same as that of the original thread.

Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below)

"They can qualify for Immeasurable Speed, however, if the regular dimension of time appears like a spatial dimension from their higher dimensional perspective. That is to say, that it can freely be traversed both forward and backwards, allowing them to access any point in it and move unbound by the notions of time inherent to the lower space."

 

[Quintessence_PE]

My opinion remains the same as that of the original thread.

Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below)

"They can qualify for Immeasurable Speed, however, if the regular dimension of time appears like a spatial dimension from their higher dimensional perspective. That is to say, that it can freely be traversed both forward and backwards, allowing them to access any point in it and move unbound by the notions of time inherent to the lower space."

Giving an immeasurable speed due to an explosion that created the multiverse still doesn't seem right for the reasons I mentioned. I am waiting for a staff member who is knowledgeable on this subject.

 

[Firestorm808]

We are working with Hypertimelines.

To reiterate, the standard VSBW timeline is one of an infinite collection. This single collection represents one Ben 10 Timeline.

There are infinite Ben 10 Timelines and Cross-Time in the Space Beyond.

The Space Beyond is inside the Fabric of Existence.

The higher dimension of the Fabric of Existence and White Space qualifies. It can freely be traversed both forward and backward, allowing them to access any point in the lower standard timelines.

 

[Georredannea15]

My opinion remains the same as that of the original thread.

Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below)

"They can qualify for Immeasurable Speed, however, if the regular dimension of time appears like a spatial dimension from their higher dimensional perspective. That is to say, that it can freely be traversed both forward and backwards, allowing them to access any point in it and move unbound by the notions of time inherent to the lower space."

It is not immeasurable to see higher-dimensional perspective or completely affect/create a hypertimeline or multiple timelines. We don't have any standard or explanation for this in the FAQ. Even fundamentally "dimensionality" has nothing to do with speed


Anyway, we need more staff members here.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

We are working with Hypertimelines.

To reiterate, the standard VSBW timeline is one of an infinite collection. This single collection represents one Ben 10 Timeline.

There are infinite Ben 10 Timelines and Cross-Time in the Space Beyond.

The Space Beyond is inside the Fabric of Existence.

The higher dimension of the Fabric of Existence and White Space qualifies. It can freely be traversed both forward and backward, allowing them to access any point in the lower standard timelines.

After all, it's an explosion, it's not moving faster than time with pure speed, and the “dimensionality” you mention has nothing to do with speed.

 

[Lou_change]

If one of the arguments is it happens before time wouldn't timeless void rules apply

 

[RigelBR7]

I agree

 

[Reiner04]

After all, it's an explosion, it's not moving faster than time with pure speed, and the “dimensionality” you mention has nothing to do with speed.

I don't get how it being an explosion changes anything about it having speed. If an explosion moves faster than time, it is immeasurable speed, if it moves with infinite speed, it is infinite speed. If it moves with mftl, it is mftl.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

I don't get how it being an explosion changes anything about it having speed. If an explosion moves faster than time, it is immeasurable speed, if it moves with infinite speed, it is infinite speed. If it moves with mftl, it is mftl.

The problem is that this explosion is not an immeasurable speed, none of what you have said so far shows that this explosion is an immeasurable speed

 

[Reiner04]

The problem is that this explosion is not an immeasurable speed, none of what you have said so far shows that this explosion is an immeasurable speed

If moving throughout cosmos, time, hypertimeline, past present future with pure speed is not immeasurable then I don't know what is. Obviously, unless explosion used teleportation, time travel, etc.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

If moving throughout cosmos, time, hypertimeline, past present future with pure speed is not immeasurable then I don't know what is. Obviously, unless explosion used teleportation, time travel, etc.

They don't move faster than time, if they did, I wouldn't have opened such a downgrade. The Omnitrix has gained immeasurable speed because it can react to the explosion, and this is very different from what you say

 

[Reiner04]

They don't move faster than time, if they did, I wouldn't have opened such a downgrade. The Omnitrix gained immeasurable speed because it could react to the explosion, and this is a very different situation from what you said

Instead of "they don't", "it is not", there could have been a better answer. Omnitrix reacted to the explosion that expands throughout cosmos and that got it what it got.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Instead of "they don't", "it is not", there could have been a better answer. Omnitrix reacted to the explosion that expands throughout cosmos and that got it what it got.

Dude, we have already answered this many times, this explosion was an explosion that created the multiverse and has nothing to do with immeasurable speed, there is no reason for an explosion that created space-time to give immeasurable speed

It doesn't matter how many timelines or how many dimensions, these are not matters of immeasurable speed

 

[Lloydblitzed]

What's up with everyone trying to downgrade CN verses

 

[Reiner04]

Dude, we have already answered this many times, this explosion was an explosion that created the multiverse and has nothing to do with immeasurable speed, there is no reason for an explosion that created space-time to give immeasurable speed

It doesn't matter how many timelines or how many dimensions, these are not matters of immeasurable speed

K. It is immeasurable speed then.

 

[RigelBR7]

What's up with everyone trying to downgrade CN verses

If it's bad for you, imagine the verses of Latino America.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Bump

 

[Lovemovies14]

Disagree with downgrade.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I have a very limited amount of knowledge on Ben 10 (as I haven't watched it since I was a small child), and even less about this particular variant of it since... well. I never watched it.

With that said, my perception of the verse is that they display basically normal movement speeds (that is, not Immeasurable) throughout. They do not have some weird form of movement that makes Immeasurable consistent. It requires a particular interpretation to justify Immeasurable, and I think that taking that over the showings of the rest of the show is a bad approach, especially with such a weird feat for Immeasurable.

As such, I'll agree to the downgrade for now. However, the OP currently gives no proposed destination: just that it should not be Immeasurable. The profiles seem to largely scale to MFTL+, is that the proposal?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

With that said, my perception of the verse is that they display basically normal movement speeds (that is, not Immeasurable) throughout. They do not have some weird form of movement that makes Immeasurable consistent. It requires a particular interpretation to justify Immeasurable, and I think that taking that over the showings of the rest of the show is a bad approach, especially with such a weird feat for Immeasurable.

Plz send an example of "weird form of movement" that justify someone from being Immesurable, cuz I really don't get you on that part

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Plz send an example of "weird form of movement" that justify someone from being Immesurable, cuz I really don't get you on that part

I mostly work on D&D, and these guys are a pretty good example of blatant Immeasurable movement speed, in which they travel directly down the flow of time as easily as they'd walk down anything else.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I mostly work on D&D, and these guys are a pretty good example of blatant Immeasurable movement speed, in which they travel directly down the flow of time as easily as they'd walk down anything else.

I see, but I'd still line up on what Firestorm said earlier

My opinion remains the same as that of the original thread.

Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below)

"They can qualify for Immeasurable Speed, however, if the regular dimension of time appears like a spatial dimension from their higher dimensional perspective. That is to say, that it can freely be traversed both forward and backwards, allowing them to access any point in it and move unbound by the notions of time inherent to the lower space."

 

[Quintessence_PE]

However, the OP currently gives no proposed destination: just that it should not be Immeasurable. The profiles seem to largely scale to MFTL+, is that the proposal?

Yes, if this downgrade is agreed, they will go back to their old speed.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

With that said, my perception of the verse is that they display basically normal movement speeds (that is, not Immeasurable) throughout. They do not have some weird form of movement that makes Immeasurable consistent. It requires a particular interpretation to justify Immeasurable, and I think that taking that over the showings of the rest of the show is a bad approach, especially with such a weird feat for Immeasurable.

I don’t really care for most of this thread, but I just want to note that the Immeasurable stuff is for the Omnitrix’s reaction speed which only Alien X scales to. Nothing else scales to the feat.

As such, I'll agree to the downgrade for now. However, the OP currently gives no proposed destination: just that it should not be Immeasurable. The profiles seem to largely scale to MFTL+, is that the proposal?

This feat used to be considered Infinite speed, so unless OP has issues with that too then I’m pretty sure it should go back to Infinite.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

This feat used to be considered Infinite speed, so unless OP has issues with that too then I’m pretty sure it should go back to Infinite.

I have no problem or opinion about infinite speed, but I am sure that immeasurable speed is not true

 

[Reiner04]

With that said, my perception of the verse is that they display basically normal movement speeds (that is, not Immeasurable) throughout. They do not have some weird form of movement that makes Immeasurable consistent. It requires a particular interpretation to justify Immeasurable, and I think that taking that over the showings of the rest of the show is a bad approach, especially with such a weird feat for Immeasurable.

Annihilarrgh is apparently most powerful weapon in the entire universe. Ben happened to survive and move in it for a while but that is taken as only outlier. No one else scales to Annihilarrgh except the God of verse, Alien X.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Annihilarrgh is apparently most powerful weapon in the entire universe. Ben happened to survive and move in it for a while but that is taken as only outlier. No one else scales to Annihilarrgh except the God of verse, Alien X.

That's not the issue.

I think we are having difficulty understanding each other. The real issue here is that the stated reasons do not make them faster than time. hyper-timeline, higher dimension or similar issues are meaningless because they are not situations that show that they are faster than time

(I am trying to correct it because it is wrong according to me and what is written in the wiki, I do not want you to misunderstand me, I have no ulterior motives)

 

[Reiner04]

That's not the issue.

I think we are having difficulty understanding each other. The real issue here is that the stated reasons do not make them faster than time. hyper-timeline, higher dimension or similar issues are meaningless because they are not situations that show that they are faster than time

(I am trying to correct it because it is wrong according to me and what is written in the wiki, I do not want you to misunderstand me, I have no ulterior motives)

I understand the issue u have. But I disagree with it. I understand the issue Bambu have. And I'm trying to correct him. As far as I can see, his issue seems to be, if he has worded it correctly. That no character in the verse has immeasurable speed so its inconsistent but Annihilarrgh each feat is itself inconsistent since no one but one scales above it in any form. "Weird form of movements" exist throughout verse, infact, in professor Paradox own wording, he "moves on the eternity" and we know he literally does, not with time machine or time manp. But literally walks. But it is not Immeasurable speed because it is not. Timebeast walks beyond linear time skipping it by moving ftl. He is not Immeasurable. Time God literally dodges attack that has already hit him by moving back and forward in time regularly/passively. It is not Immeasurable either.

But in anycase. My motive is to correct and state my opinion. To agree with it or not is choice per person and I respect it.