Berserk Upgrade?

[ThePerpetual]

Seeing as Nosferatu Zodd (who only now has a page here) has consistently fought on-par with Skull Knight and is deliberately made out to be his rival, wouldn't characters who can similarly trade blows with him: for instance, Guts: also scale? If so, they should probably be bumped to Small City level.

 

[CinCameron20]

Guts has only been able to fight on par with Zodd's human state. He was easily beaten back by Zodd's true form in each case he fought against him.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Last I checked, no extreme difference was made between the two?

Furthermore, Griffith, in Base Form before he turned evil with the Behelit, managed to cut through him (when being un-cuttable is sort of supposed of specifically be one of his powers, so this is made a fairly big deal of.)

Furthermore, Guts fought against Zodd's true form in Volume 22 (described here and here on the Berserk wiki), and they fought evenly as allies against Ganishka not too long after that, so... no... ?

 

[CinCameron20]

Griffith and Guts were fighting against a casual Zodd. By the statement you are making, since Guts got stronger (as shown on his page between arcs), he should have been able to stomp Zodd's human state. The fight you linked via wiki actually do prove my point. I'll pull up the scans right now.

here is when the fight starts

Looking at it again, it's almost a stalemate between Guts and Human Zodd, though Zodd had a slight edge before transforming. After their first clash it is clear that Zodd is vastly stronger. Guts could only retreat when facing Zodd's onslaught.

Trying to block an attack was more than Guts could hope to handle.

Even when fighting against one of Zodd's allies with the berserker armor active, Guts was only able to deal very little damage to his true form while the Berserker armor had already dealt excessive damage to his body.

Zodd allows Guts to ride on top of him since Guts has a weapon that can hit the lightning apostle (due to it being partially on the astral plain). After Guts threatened Zodd, he left Zodd no time to respond and went on to explain that his weapon could kill the apostle.

There is nothing to suggest that Guts is remotely close to Zodd in terms of power until they fight again.

 

[CinCameron20]

And after landing the blow on the lightning apostle, Zodd was fine while Guts was nearly rendered unconscious. He typically stood back up to threaten Griffith in front of Zodd, but as soon as Zodd flew off, Guts fell right back dow and passed out.

 

[ThePerpetual]

No, your panels prove my point. If Guts is capable of hurting Zodd's physical form at all, let alone cutting all the way through the length of his arm, then he must have some form of parity with his physical power. Much the same applies to the very next instant, in which he blocks Zodd's attacks without his arms snapping like icicles.

You're vastly overplaying how superior Zodd is to Guts. If Guts was thousands of times weaker than Zodd, his arms couldn't have even remotely held up against his strike, nor could be have even scratched Zodd. Zodd > Guts does not automatically mean Zodd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guts: there are plenty of ways to beat an opponent that aren't being a whole 4 tiers above them (like I dunno, having a few centuries more fighting experience maybe?). That's what the whole fighting on-par with terminology is even for: if we only ever counted the times a villain beat the protagonists (in many stories they do not), then a good chunk of villains across the board would be featless.

He's not even retreating, he's dodging, and if he were retreating it would not invalidate the feat we just witnessed five seconds ago. Guts is a strategist: he doesn't have to be in an enemy's face and possess zero sense of self-preservation every second of a combat to be considered "on-par" with his opposition.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Somebody get AMM on this.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

^Done.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Guts (going by our sites rules) would scale to Zodd in each of the three sequences they harmed/threatened each other. However Golden Age Guts having Black Swordsman statistics does not make me comfortable at all, especially when you consider how hard fought the battle against Wyald was and the multiple statements of his improvement etc during GA and before Eclipse.) So overall I am ok aside from a grudge.

I also disagree with the whole City Level Skull Knight stuff, since it revolves around the former taking down Ganishka's shiva form easily. However Skull Knight was able to defeat the latter with the use of his durability negating weapon "Sword of Actuation" so I don't think he would scale to Ganishka really.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Golden Age is debatable, at the time Zodd's/SK's/Gut's battle with Ganiskha hadn't happened yet. In theory, you could have multiple tabs for Zodd/SK I guess?

Is the Sword of Actuation able to bypass durability specifically because of it's space-time warping properties, or does it simply accompany the swings of his upgraded Sword of Thorns? The way I'd read it, the slash murdered Ganiskha dead when it was redirected to him, the space-time warping abilities operated seperately to react with Ganiskha and tear a hole into the Astral Plane after Griffith messed with it. After all, it was a physical blow that Skull Knight attempted to land on Femto, not really the same thing as him slashing to open a portal to the Astral Plane with the Sword of Actuation indirectly like he had done previously.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

"Is the Sword of Actuation able to bypass durability specifically because of it's space-time warping properties" Yes, unless you provide proof for the latter.

Griffith redirected Skull Knights attack (which negates durability) onto Ganishka which resulted in his death, not sure how Skull Knight becomes City Level level from that.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Maybe I should've worded it more clearly:

Skull Knight doesn't seem to be actively utilizing the sword's space-time warping powers against Griffith from what I'm reading, but is rather simply trying to slay him with the Behelit-empowered weapon: Griffith's warping is what transfers the blow from himself to Ganishka, and the slash accompanied by the space-warp Griffith used on it is what caused the reaction, as opposed to the Sword of Actuation's ability to cut space being a passive effect active at all times. I guess it' snot really clear on that? It'd really help if I had access to the manga...

Besides all of that, didn't Zodd and Guts both survive Ganishka's lightning when the other apostles couldn't? Wouldn't that scale, or does it not apply somehow?

 

[CinCameron20]

I'm clearly not wanted to chime in on this conversation since Perpetual is being extremely defensive when responding to my statements. Also, Zodd has Regenerationn, which is why he can take hits from the SK. Try re-reading the fights. Guts does not scale to Zodd nor does he scale to the SK.

The SK was never shown taking damage from Zodd and he always left in the middle of their fights to perform other duties. Their fights were never decisive. Guts was clearly shown overpowered by Zodd in extension.

I'm done here, though.

 

[ThePerpetual]

If debating you is being "extremely defensive", and you "clearly aren't wanted" because you have a different opinion than me, then sure, I can't really stop you.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

The SK was never shown taking damage from Zodd and he always left in the middle of their fights to perform other duties. Their fights were never decisive. Guts was clearly shown overpowered by Zodd in extension.

In volume thirteen Rickert states that Skull Knight overpowered Zodd, it's obvious that the two are at least equals. Even Zodd admits this.

Guts survived the attacks from Zodd in all encounters they had (I think Zodd even flew straight into Guts at one point during the Ganishka fight.) Also he dodged Zodd's charge because there was no reason for him not to, it would be foolish for anyone to be hit even though it yields no advantages at all. Both Guts and Zodd scale to eachother, this much is certain.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that AMM seems to make sense.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

snip

The whole point of that scene between SK and Femto was if the sword of actuation (even with it's special abilities) could kill him or a member of the God Hand in general, which it failed to do. Femto then distorts space on the sword stroke and then reflects it back to Ganishka, killing him.

Yes, Ganishka mentions that Guts was able to withstand (twice by the way) lightning that "nigh incinerates apostles"

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Wouldn't Guts inflicting wounds on Zodd through his Durability make his AP scale to Zodd's Durability, at least by some degree in any case? The difference between maximum MCB and minimum Small City is at least 1000 times (58000 times if min-maxed the other way, average is 6818 times), I don't think Guts would injure Zodd if the power gap was by three to four orders of magnitude...

Cue a normal 8-A vs Low 7-B fight, it would end in a complete stomp in most cases but Guts and Zodd's fight weren't really a stomp, he was holding his own even though he couldn't defeat Zodd.

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Alright my opinion is making Guts At Least 8-A normally, Likely Low 7-B at full strength since he can fight Zodds but would not be fully equal (making him completely Low 7-B might give the impression that he matches Zodd and Skull Knight in every way, to many people who sees his page, so let's avoid that for now). By the way Guts also 'killed' Slan with his Dragonslayer so see if we can scale something to that.

But he should be at least above 8-A in order to do any sort of damage to Zodd.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Interestingly, I was thinking the same thing a while back.

I agree to this, although I must say that Golden Age Guts should have his stats on a lower scale than Post-Eclipse Guts. I mean, on the Golden Age, Guts and Griffith were causing very slight damage to Zodd. Yes, they damaged him, but not by much.

But indeed, Post-Eclipse, Guts was matching Zodd. In fact, he even lampshaded that during their fight on the Hill of Swords. He remarked that before, he could barely survive during their fight against Zodd, and that now, he could even match Zodd.

 

[Inoue211]

Guts only matched "human" Zodd(he said that version would kill him back then), even then it was with skill/reflexes and he was panting like a dog with several cuts while Zodd was completely fine(he just had 1 cut and wasn't even tired). Then he managed to dodge and cut full Apostle Zodd(and that might be because of the dragonslayer) but Zodd was completely fine and sent Guts flying an instant after.

It should be noted that Zodd only transformed because his sword that he had stolen from some Kushans broke against the "demonslayer", he even says that otherwise he would've preferred to keep dancing with Guts.

Zodd has shown to be weaker than Skull Knight too.


Just saying, 7-B Guts is ridiculous. He wins his fights with tactics(bombs, canon arm, some other sneaky stuff), he never matches his oponents in strenght unless they're low/medium tier apostles and he manages not to get squeezed like a bug against the high tiers with the Berserker armor, but still gets outclassed. His speed is pretty top tier though, not movement but his reactions, dodging at last second.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Just saying, 7-B Guts is ridiculous. He wins his fights with tactics(bombs, canon arm, some other sneaky stuff), he never matches his oponents in strenght unless they're low/medium tier apostles and he manages not to get squeezed like a bug against the high tiers with the Berserker armor, but still gets outclassed. His speed is pretty top tier though, not movement but his reactions, dodging at last second.

I agree and disagree here, I agree with 7-B Guts being preposterous (7-B Skull Knight is already something I don't agree with) however to say Guts never matches his opponents in strength is quite dishonest, read back to Golden Age and you have Guts being able to put Wyald's apostle form in a chokehold and withstand numerous attacks from him; also was able to keep fighting after being flung around by The Count. Guts would scale to Zodd under all circumstances by the way, as he is able to damage and withstand attacks from him.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

mmm how about putting guts a little under zodd

like at High 7-C instead?

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Just a small clarification: neither Skull Knight nor Zodd are currently 7-B. It's Low 7-B and the average gap between Skull Knight's calc and a normal 7-B combatant is 20 times. So in physical power terms this is a huge gap between Low and Normal even though both are apparently 7-B.

Skull Knight could have his AP drop by 26 times (less than 4% of current level) and he would still be in High 7-C. If he drops by 2.6 times he's still Low 7-B.

Scaling from Slan, who is another God Hand, may yield a more or less consistent comparison though personally I haven't seen any calc yet to scale Apostles from God Hands.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Scaling from Slan, who is another God Hand, may yield a more or less consistent comparison though personally I haven't seen any calc yet to scale Apostles from God Hands.

the slan who manifested as the intestines? i dont think that manifestation is even nearly close to the actual slan

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I still don't really get why Skull Knight is 7-B in the first place, since he damaged Ganishka with a durability negating weapon.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Wait, does that mean the intestine Slan was already MCB? Hm, that should indicate than the actual Slan should be very powerful (as well as anyone who can stalemate the actual one for some time).

 

[RadicalMrR]

I agree with @AMM

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

I think Skull Knight's Low 7-B calc did not use his durability-negating sword, but I am not sure.

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/berserk-calculation-1-shiva.18954/

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

hmmm so SK's tier may be changed

even if it isnt changed, we cud still put guts at High 7-C for being somewhat comparable to zodd

hey that wud mke an interesting fight with kenshiro then

 

[Antvasima]

@Austrian-Man-Meat Please elaborate about the durability-negating sword? Also, which Berserk characters should be adjusted?

 

[Inoue211]

 

[Antvasima]

So it is a spatial manipulation hax?

 

[Antvasima]

However, if Skull Knight withstood hits from Ganishka, he would likely scale anyway.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Yup withstanding the force of Shiva stomp would make him Low 7-B in any case.

 

[Inoue211]

I agree and disagree here, I agree with 7-B Guts being preposterous (7-B Skull Knight is already something I don't agree with) however to say Guts never matches his opponents in strength is quite dishonest, read back to Golden Age and you have Guts being able to put Wyald's apostle form in a chokehold and withstand numerous attacks from him; also was able to keep fighting after being flung around by The Count. Guts would scale to Zodd under all circumstances by the way, as he is able to damage and withstand attacks from him.

Wyald is a mid-tier apostle though, so is the count.

And About harming Zodd, remember that Guts' Dragonslayer "IS SUPER EFFECTIVE" because it's been bathed in the blood of hundreds of demons/ghosts/things, which is why he was able to take out that Slan made from troll guts.

First of all I disagree with the 7-B stuff, be it for SK, Zodd or Guts, it's pretty ridiculous to me Berserk characters that are not giant monsters or God Hand to be that high.

Second, even if we take the fact that Guts can manage not to get one-shotted against Zodd, there's also the fact that the only way he has taken hits from him and a lot of other apostles is using the Dragonslayer as a shield and any attack that bypasses the shield harms him greatly. So even if Guts manages not to get one-shotted I disagree with him being considered an equal or on the same tier. Hell the entire manga is about Guts being outclassed 90% of the time and winning with well... Guts.

I agree with Berserk Armor Guts being maybe on the same tier as Zodd(possibly) simply because it gives him defense and overall boost, but normal Guts no way considering "Human" Zodd is already a big task for him and let's not forget that Guts isn't getting any stronger since that fight in the cementery of swords because the armor is wrecking his body badly.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Isn't that why we divided Guts into three different versions, though? Before DS, After DS, After Berserk Armor. They all have different stats.


It's kinda like making different versions for characters like Saber/Emiya with different weapons. Remove weapons from them and they would be much weaker, but in most VS battles we already assume that most characters have their standard gear.


As for Skull Knight AP, we can still try using the energy output of a tornado. We can scale them to natural tornadoes after getting the diameter of the tornado.




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...600-TIMES-powerful-Hiroshima-atomic-bomb.html

Bigger than Hiroshima: Monster tornado measuring 17 miles long and 1.3 miles wide was 600 TIMES more powerful than atomic bomb as NASA releases images of twister from space


1.3 miles is 2.1 km, so if we get the diameter for the tornado in that scene, we can use inverse square law for the energy.

I'll assume 105 m diameter for convenience, and same wind speed.

2.1 km / 0.105 km * 600 times = 30 times

Square root of 30 times = 5.47722557505

5.47722557505 * 20 kilotons = 109.544511501 kilotons

That's High 7-C Large Town level.

Generally distinctly supernatural feats (with lightning shown inside that small tornado; we just don't know how much energy those lightning have) are considered >= natural feats, so that's just the minimal energy.

We only need to get the diameter via pixel scaling to determine the affected area.

And it seems the compared tornado was still 1.5 times weaker than the one with the highest wind speed (200-210 mph vs 302 mph). A peak tornado that occurs on Earth would have 1.5 times that energy for the same size. That may be used for the high end, though it's still the same tier.

Essentially we would be getting SK and Zodd's durability, when they are caught in the same tornado, and scale their AP from there for their ability to damage each other.

If they check in then they could be At Least 7-C (from tornado feat) to Likely Low 7-B (from Shiva stomp feat).

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Hm... this vid makes the tornado seem much larger than the Manga one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlAbGe3zUr0

Also the length of time SK and Zodd fought may change the calculation. The Oklahoma tornado lasted 40 minutes. Do we have an in-lore timeframe for how long the fight lasted?


Edit: We don't need angsizing, we can just pixel scale from this.




30 pixel : 1440 pixel * 2.4 m average horse length = 115.2 m

SK's horse is much larger than a normal horse though, so I don't know. And the tornado is still farther than SK from the camera so it should be wider. But we can probably ignore these for a theoretical minimum measurement.


If you find a timeframe, I will make a blog for the tornado calculation.