Big Monkey Get Big Speed

[RedReaper]

So, while I was working on something awhile back, I realized that—For some reason—None of the Saiyans Oozaru forms are being accounted for their speed sections. Which, y’know, is strange because we accept multiplies speed—As Goku states a KKx5 wouldn’t catch up to him, and it’s stated to be a 10x increase to battle power.

So, given that we’re waiting for the Blog in Hit’s thread, I figured I could get this tiny thread out of the way.

This affects:

Kid Goku
Kid Goku Toei
Kid Gohan
Saiyan Saga Vegeta (and Toei)
Z Bardock
Bardock’s Squad
Nappa
Raditz
Super Broly (via Ikari)
Z Broly (we see in his design sheets by Toriyama he still has his tail, but it’s ultimately pointless because LSSJ is a waaaay better multiplier)
And any other notable Saiyans I forgot to mention.

 

[Damage3245]

So, while I was working on something awhile back, I realized that—For some reason—None of the Saiyans Oozaru forms are being accounted for their speed sections. Which, y’know, is strange because we accept multiplies speed—As Goku states a KKx5 wouldn’t catch up to him, and it’s stated to be a 10x increase to battle power.

Where do we accept that the Oozaru forms multiplies speed?

 

[omegabronic]

Broly (Dragon Ball Super)

Broly is an elite Saiyan who was born with an extraordinary potential for power. His abnormal power shocked King Vegeta and he exiled Broly to planet Vampa, fearing that he might one day not only challenge his son for the throne but also become a danger to the universe itself. However, after a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Can't give scans rn, but in the broly movie it is said that speed doesn't increase with the Oozaru form

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Broly (Dragon Ball Super)

Broly is an elite Saiyan who was born with an extraordinary potential for power. His abnormal power shocked King Vegeta and he exiled Broly to planet Vampa, fearing that he might one day not only challenge his son for the throne but also become a danger to the universe itself. However, after a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Can't give scans rn, but in the broly movie it is said that speed doesn't increase with the Oozaru form

Pretty weird considering Goku pointed out that even with a hypothetical Kaioken x5 he wouldn’t be able to keep up with Oozaru Vegeta's speed

 

[RedReaper]

Where do we accept that the Oozaru forms multiplies speed?

We have it listed in the Dragon Ball Wiki Page.

“Note: The consensus is that the Kaio-ken multipliers are fully applicable to speed. Additionally, the official speed multipliers of 50x, 100x, and 400x for Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, and Super Saiyan 3 forms, respectively, are accepted on this site for scaling purposes. According to the Daizenshuu and the Dragon Ball Super Exciting Guide, Super Saiyan is officially a 50x multiplier. Similarly, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 are 100x and 400x, respectively, in the Super Exciting Guide, and more recently, in Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot. Oozaru is officially a 10x multiplier in the manga and the Dragon Ball Super Exciting Guide as well. However, more than that, SSJ is consistent with the showings in the manga as a 50x speed multiplier specifically. Goku using Kaio-ken x10 was being outpaced by 50% Frieza, and even Kaio-ken x20 while using a Kamehameha was at best equal to 50% Frieza's speed, yet using SSJ allowed Goku to speed blitz 50% Frieza, and even have an edge in speed over 100% Frieza. Therefore, it is highly consistent with the 50x multiplier assigned to it. This applies to Oozaru as well, which is consistent with its showings as a 10x multiplier, with Goku commenting that Vegeta was extremely fast and even with Kaio-ken x5 he wouldn't stand a chance.

We use the Kaio-ken multipliers because they are explicitly stated to multiply speed and power by the number indicated in the technique. This further extends to the multipliers for the SSJ forms and the 10x Oozaru multiplier for the reasons listed above. We continue to use Kaio-ken multipliers in DBS as well as the SSJ and Oozaru multiplier.”

 

[Damage3245]

Pretty weird considering Goku pointed out that even with a hypothetical Kaioken x5 he wouldn’t be able to keep up with Oozaru Vegeta's speed

When does he say this?

We have it listed in the Dragon Ball Wiki Page.

I see. I think we should remove that bit from the note then.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

In guides, isn't it shown that the form increases battle power by 10x? A higher battle power from what I remember affects all stats (I just don't know if it's 10x on all stats like SSJ and KK), but it would increase speed in some instance.

In addition to what the Red mentioned that is written on our verse page.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

When does he say this?

 

[Damage3245]

.

Thanks - though I don't see that as meaning that Vegeta's speed is being multiplied there. Going Kaio-ken wouldn't speed up making a Genki-dama.

Goku is just saying that even a 5x Kaio-ken wouldn't been enough to beat him in that form, which makes sense since the Oozaru form is a higher multiplier. Goku isn't also saying that Vegeta's speed has increased either; just that he's too fast.

If Vegeta were ten times faster than Goku, the fight would have ended much sooner.

 

[RedReaper]

Thanks - though I don't see that as meaning that Vegeta's speed is being multiplied there. Going Kaio-ken wouldn't speed up making a Genki-dama.

Goku is just saying that even a 5x Kaio-ken wouldn't been enough to beat him in that form, which makes sense since the Oozaru form is a higher multiplier.

If Vegeta were ten times faster than Goku, the fight would have ended much sooner.

Goku’s saying this because when he tried to run and prep, with the Kaioken, (multiplying his own speed), Vegeta was able to easily react and smack him away. This forces Goku to use the Solar Flare and blind him, so he can charge the Spirit Bomb.

Edit: To be clear, this is him saying KKx5 would not work to give him enough speed to run away and prep the Genki Dama, specifically.

 

[Damage3245]

Goku’s saying this because when he tried to run and prep, with the Kaioken, (multiplying his own speed), Vegeta was able to easily react and smack him away. This forces Goku to use the Solar Flare and blind him, so he can charge the Spirit Bomb.

Edit: To be clear, this is him saying KKx5 would not work to give him enough speed to run away and prep the Genki Dama, specifically.

I'm aware, I reread the chapters. I still don't think there's enough proof here for a 10 times multiplier for speed, and the quote provided by Omegabronic above also provides evidence against the Oozaru forms being 10 times faster than their base forms.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Don't think it's x10, but it certainly doesn't not increase speed either

 

[RedReaper]

I'm aware, I reread the chapters. I still don't think there's enough proof here for a 10 times multiplier for speed, and the quote provided by Omegabronic above also provides evidence against the Oozaru forms being 10 times faster than their base forms.

Vegeta’s speed has to increase. For one, we know KKx3 was able to blitz Base Vegeta, and if Vegeta’s speed hadn’t increased at all, that means a x3 would’ve been more than enough. This means that Vegeta necessarily got a speed amp. Especially when one able to gap a x5 increase (or in terms of Vegeta’s PL of 18,000, a 2.2x multiplier of enhanced speed bare minimum.)

Secondly, in the Broly movie Sub, they only refer to it as “lumbering moves,” (implying loss of dexterity and precision, not speed), and don’t say anything about speed not increasing. Paragus only says

“…but he’s staying in his human form, maintaining his speed and agility,” in the English Dub.

 

[Damage3245]

Vegeta’s speed has to increase. For one, we know KKx3 was able to blitz Base Vegeta, and if Vegeta’s speed hadn’t increased at all, that means a x3 would’ve been more than enough. This means that Vegeta necessarily got a speed amp.

That's only if you're assuming that he meant 5x Kaio-ken wouldn't be enough to outspeed him.

If Goku would going 3x Kaio-ken could blitz Vegeta, than a 10x multiplier for Vegeta should have blitzed Goku even harder but he didn't as Goku could still react to his moves and counter him with a Solar Flare.

Secondly, in the Broly movie Sub, they only refer to it as “lumbering moves,” and don’t say anything about speed not increasing. Paragus only says

“…but he’s staying in his human form, maintaining his speed and agility,” in the English Dub.

The definition of "lumbering" is "moving in a slow, heavy, awkward way." So by definition that means that a Great Ape form is not massively faster than their base form.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Secondly, in the Broly movie Sub, they only refer to it as “lumbering moves,” (implying loss of dexterity and precision, not speed), and don’t say anything about speed not increasing. Paragus only says

He implies that a great ape is slower

 

[RedReaper]

That's only if you're assuming that he meant 5x Kaio-ken wouldn't be enough to outspeed him.

That’s the context of the moment. Goku tries to run away in Kaioken, explicitly isn’t fast enough, says that even 5x Kaioken wouldn’t be enough to do what he wants, (outspeeding Vegeta and running away), and then resorts to a Solar Flare to run away. There’s no other way to interpret it.

The definition of "lumbering" is "moving in a slow, heavy, awkward way." So by definition that means that a Great Ape form is not massively faster than their base form.

Given the Oozaru is massive, it’s likely referring to the imprecision of their form. It’s also incredibly vague in reference to the explicit information we get from the Saiyan Saga.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Given the Oozaru is massive, it’s likely referring to the imprecision of their form

No, lumbering means slow and heavy

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I guess it could be a retcon in the Super Continuity, maybe

 

[Damage3245]

I guess it could be a retcon in the Super Continuity, maybe

It was never explicitly stated that the Great Ape / Oozaru form makes the user far faster than normal so it wouldn't be much of a retcon.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

We have an official statement that the Oozaru form is slow compared to the power increase. All you guys did was proving that Kaioken x5 Goku wouldn't make a difference and all the evidence there is Oozaru Vegeta being faster than Goku.
Kaioken x5 Goku wouldn't be able to move a muscle either and would likely only be for a short burst, no idea why anyone thinks Goku would want to compete in speed.


Oozaru form canonically doesn't multiply speed by the same metric as it does power. Broly's father said so. Why are we debating on this?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

It was never explicitly stated that the Great Ape / Oozaru form makes the user far faster than normal so it wouldn't be much of a retcon.

Oozaru Vegeta is faster than Goku... Just like... Regular Vegeta.
So yeah, it's not a feat that proves anything. I don't know why OP thinks this is supporting evidence.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Broly's father

Paragus.

 

[RedReaper]

Oozaru Vegeta is faster than Goku... Just like... Regular Vegeta.
So yeah, it's not a feat that proves anything. I don't know why OP thinks this is supporting evidence.

Regular Vegeta is only faster than Base Goku. Kaioken Goku is comparable in speed, and Kaioken x3 was able to completely outspeed Vegeta. Thus, in order for Oozaru Vegeta to outspeed a Kaioken x5 Goku, he must have increased in speed.

Also, while yes, KKx5 would leave Goku motionless, Goku was clearly speaking in the hypothetical of his speed relative to Vegeta.

 

[Damage3245]

Regular Vegeta is only faster than Base Goku. Kaioken Goku is comparable in speed, and Kaioken x3 was able to completely outspeed Vegeta. Thus, in order for Oozaru Vegeta to outspeed a Kaioken x5 Goku, he must have increased in speed.

Not necessarily. Goku has gotten weaker since the start of the fight too.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Not necessarily. Goku has gotten weaker since the start of the fight too.

Vegeta got way weaker due to making the Power Ball tho

 

[RedReaper]

Not necessarily. Goku has gotten weaker since the start of the fight too.

By that same token, so has Vegeta. The Power Ball was noted to have considerably drained Vegeta’s power.

Edit: (And yet he was still superior to a hypothetical KKx5 Goku’s speed.) Also, Ninja’d.

 

[omegabronic]

Pretty weird considering Goku pointed out that even with a hypothetical Kaioken x5 he wouldn’t be able to keep up with Oozaru Vegeta's speed

Goku at that point was extremely fatigued and weakened from using Kaioken 4x, Yajirobe's casual slaps were enough to make him wince in pain, that is just a case of Goku being weakened tbh

At most it would be a retcon from Super

 

[Damage3245]

Vegeta got way weaker due to making the Power Ball tho

That's why I said "too". I know Vegeta got weaker since the start of the fight as well.

 

[omegabronic]

Vegeta got way weaker due to making the Power Ball tho

Which has no evidence of beinf nearly as much as Goku, who basically was destroying his entire body since using Kaiomen 3x and above, i don't get this argument, all that is said is that vegeta's power droped, that's it, no "it does by a very higher amount" or anything, he seems relatively fine after making it, no visible strain, Goku? Hurts by moving and casual slaps from people far weaker than him make him scream in pain, in what world is both of their weakened states ever remotely comparable?

 

[omegabronic]

By that same token, so has Vegeta. The Power Ball was noted to have considerably drained Vegeta’s power.

Prove that, prove that it is even remotely comparable to Goku's weakness from using the kaioken, else this argument doesn't matter

 

[omegabronic]

And of course times 5 wouldn't make a difference, Goku needs to stay still to make the Genki Dama, of course times 5 wouldn't make a difference for that, he would get away, stop, and then vegeta would tag him, discounting the destruction of his own that would make, so he is right, it wouldn't make a difference regardless if he became faster than vegeta

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

And of course times 5 wouldn't make a difference, Goku needs to stay still to make the Genki Dama, of course times 5 wouldn't make a difference for that, he would get away, stop, and then vegeta would tag him, discounting the destruction of his own that would make, so he is right, it wouldn't make a difference regardless if he became faster than vegeta

Didn't he just do that but with Solar Flare?

 

[RedReaper]

1) I mean, I technically can’t, but Vegeta was thrashed around by Kaioken x3 Goku, was hit by the KKx4 Kamehameha, which did incredible damage to him and “overwhelmed,” him. Then he created the Power Ball, which is noted by Goku himself to have dropped Vegeta’s power.

2) The SEG also backs up the x10 multiplier, as it talks about how Goku has superhuman physicals at a PL of 10, (“twice that of a human man,” and how it’s “10 times bigger as a Great Ape!”) It also explicitly notes his fighting power (PL) is 10x greater, which affects speed. That, combined with the KKx5 statement should prove that even if the amp isn’t 10x, Vegeta increased in speed. (Making me lean retcon rather than just “it never existed.”)

3) Goku is TALKING about RUNNING AWAY. Any attempt to reinterpret that statement as anything else is downright silly, because the whole point is him—After trying to run away with Kaioken, state that Vegeta’s speed is crazy despite his size, and that he needs a different way other than power up his stats to get the time he needs to run away. (Which is the Taiyoken/Solar Flare.) The whole context is him talking about fleeing. There’s objectively nothing else he could possibly mean.

 

[omegabronic]

Didn't he just do that but with Solar Flare?

yeah, Solar Flare which staggered Vegeta and made him stop moving for a good while, and even then it didn't matter as Goku was still shot down and was unable to launch the Genki Dama at Vegeta, so, kind of? but still didn't made a difference tho

1) I mean, I technically can’t,

if you can't, then this argument doesn't work, we have far more suggestions that Goku's condition was worse than Vegeta's than the opposite, therefore if you can't prove they were equally weakened or that his condition was worse, this argument simply doesn't much of anything

but Vegeta was thrashed around by Kaioken x3 Goku

Which he didn't seem to receive very fatal or serious injuries from

, was hit by the KKx4 Kamehameha, which did incredible damage to him and “overwhelmed,” him.

Prove the "incredible damage" part, the attack was merely 2x stronger than Kaioken 2x, which he dominated, so the gap would be even smaller, it did overwelmed him, but that doesn't say much for his damage

Then he created the Power Ball, which is noted by Goku himself to have dropped Vegeta’s power.

.....but an unquantifiable amount

2) The SEG also backs up the x10 multiplier, as it talks about how Goku has superhuman physicals at a PL of 10, (“twice that of a human man,” and how it’s “10 times bigger as a Great Ape!”) It also explicitly notes his fighting power (PL) is 10x greater, which affects speed.

we don't use PL as proportional like that, else you can make Kid Goku Planet Level from subtracting from Freeza's 530.000 PL, and a guide that contradicts what is said in the main canon, in this case DBS Broly, would simply be ignored as the source material has, and will always have, priority over it, besides it is never said that PL raises both power and speed in the same proportion, so

That, combined with the KKx5 statement should prove that even if the amp isn’t 10x, Vegeta increased in speed. (Making me lean retcon rather than just “it never existed.”)

let me ask you, if Goku with KKx5 was faster than Oozary Vegeta, so what? how would that help him? how would it make a difference in the situation he's in? as i explained earlier, it wouldn't, so the statement, which never says that Oozaru Vegeta is faster btw, can simply mean "no matter how much fast i get to get away, he is still fast enough to catch up to me before i can make the Genki Dama" which would fit perfectly well

3) Goku is TALKING about RUNNING AWAY. Any attempt to reinterpret that statement as anything else is downright silly, because the whole point is him—After trying to run away with Kaioken, state that Vegeta’s speed is crazy despite his size, and that he needs a different way other than power up his stats to get the time he needs to run away. (Which is the Taiyoken/Solar Flare.) The whole context is him talking about fleeing. There’s objectively nothing else he could possibly mean.

see above for my response to this, "fleeing" with just speed advantage wouldn't make a difference either way, so it can't be just that

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Btw if Oozaru does actually make them slower, they should get a "lower" speed rating as Oozarus

 

[RedReaper]

Prove the "incredible damage" part, the attack was merely 2x stronger than Kaioken 2x, which he dominated, so the gap would be even smaller, it did overwelmed him, but that doesn't say much for his damage

I huh-Whhhhhat? He literally can be seen having taken more damage than anything else in the battle, as well as having his armor damaged (when it was unfazed by nearly anything before it). Asserting I need to prove that he took damage is absurd, when we literally see it happen. Furthermore, we’ve already seen and agreed to the fact small gaps in PLs can lead to stomps in prior threads. Vegeta maintained a pretty decent advantage against KKx2 Goku, (forcing Goku to admit he’d lose if he didn’t go for the KKx3, and KKx2 Goku was only 2K lower), utterly stomped Cui, (who he was merely over by 6K), thrashed Dodoria (who he was only 2K over at a PL of 24K), and Piccolo (at 3.5K) was considered outright inferior to Nappa (at 4K). But if you wanted to just ignore the mountain of evidence, the SEG literally states that the KKx4 KHH “outnumbered/overwhelmed” Vegeta’s power (same link as the Oozaru statement provided earlier).

It’s also pretty explicitly nearly double Vegeta’s PL at 32K in the Daizenshuu. Edit: Vegeta’s power also explicitly dropped from its peak due to the KKx4 KHH. That, combined with the Power Ball, (taking yet another drop in power) should make it quite clear how unbelievably nerfed he was.

.....but an unquantifiable amount

Fair, but it’s certainly beneath his 18,000 value, which is what would be multiplied, and thus still necessitates Vegeta’s increase in speed to keep up with a hypothetical KKx5 Goku.

we don't use PL as proportional like that, else you can make Kid Goku Planet Level from subtracting from Freeza's 530.000 PL, and a guide that contradicts what is said in the main canon, in this case DBS Broly, would simply be ignored as the source material has, and will always have, priority over it, besides it is never said that PL raises both power and speed in the same proportion, so

I’m not trying to make a proportional amp for scaling purposes. We all know it doesn’t work that way. I’m specifically pointing out how the ten times multiplier is explicitly noted by the SEG. Trying to paint it as something that it’s not doesn’t change that fact.

let me ask you, if Goku with KKx5 was faster than Oozary Vegeta, so what? how would that help him? how would it make a difference in the situation he's in? as i explained earlier, it wouldn't, so the statement, which never says that Oozaru Vegeta is faster btw, can simply mean "no matter how much fast i get to get away, he is still fast enough to catch up to me before i can make the Genki Dama" which would fit perfectly well

1) It’d allow him to run away to a degree to charge the Genki Dama. Which is Goku’s goal. Because last time he tried to fly away, Vegeta was able to easily catch him with his speed.

2) That’s literal Headcanon to sidestep the actual context and intent behind the statement. He’s not saying, “Man, I am faster, but he’ll catch up anyway!” He says “He’s incredibly fast! Even if I had the Kaioken x5, it wouldn’t be enough to get away!” Again, trying to change/reinterpret the statement physically doesn’t work and makes no sense. Your argument as a retcon is superior to this and majorly more convincing because of this. In your words, “Prove,” that Goku meant all of this rather than what is objectively seen and said by him.

see above for my response to this, "fleeing" with just speed advantage wouldn't make a difference either way, so it can't be just that

Read above.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Wasn't that something easy? Why every time we debate about an already accepted multiplier does it have to be a big thing?

Anyway, i agree with Op.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Regular Vegeta is only faster than Base Goku. Kaioken Goku is comparable in speed, and Kaioken x3 was able to completely outspeed Vegeta. Thus, in order for Oozaru Vegeta to outspeed a Kaioken x5 Goku, he must have increased in speed.

Yeah, but that's a 2x multiplier at best. Not 10x. But even then, I disagree with any increase as we have... Well, an official statement that the form is slow.
Vegeta was caught off-guard by Kaioken x2 and then immediately dominated Goku once he got serious, so comparable is the wrong word here. Vegeta can barely dodge Kaioken X3 Goku, although he was slower, so it's not that much slower too.
So yeah, you're showcasing a pretty insignificant increase as evidence for what's supposed to be a 10x jump.

Also, while yes, KKx5 would leave Goku motionless, Goku was clearly speaking in the hypothetical of his speed relative to Vegeta.

People need to stop implementing their interpretation of the story as a fact.
Was Goku going to use Kaioken x5 to run away even though he can't move with it?
Was Goku going to race Oozaru Vegeta?
Was Goku going to speedblitz Oozaru Vegeta, to do what? He wanted to do a Spirit Bomb.

He almost thought his body was going to break with Kaioken X3, so he definitely knew he wouldn't able to do anything other than one punch with x5.

None of these hypotheticals make any sense for Goku's scenario. He probably meant Kaioken x5 wouldn't help him beat Oozaru Vegeta, so no, I don't buy that as evidence.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Wasn't that something easy? Why every time we debate about an already accepted multiplier does it have to be a big thing?

Anyway, i agree with Op.

Because it's an oversight and not actually accepted, and also there is a good chunk of evidence against it? Just a guess.

 

[omegabronic]

I huh-Whhhhhat? He literally can be seen having taken more damage than anything else in the battle

Goku's literally so damaged and so worn out that his body get hurt from attacks from people leagues upon leagues bellow him like Yajirobe, come on now

, as well as having his armor damaged (when it was unfazed by nearly anything before it).

as well as Goku's clothes, your point?

Asserting I need to prove that he took damage is absurd

it really is isn't it? good thing i didn't ask for that, good strawman tho

Furthermore, we’ve already seen and agreed to the fact small gaps in PLs can lead to stomps in prior threads.

also stablished prior, PL's are not linear, so whatever difference there is in them also isn't, else you have Planet Level Kid Goku with 10 PL and Farmer with Shotgun with 7 PL, doesn't work

Vegeta maintained a pretty decent advantage against KKx2 Goku, (forcing Goku to admit he’d lose if he didn’t go for the KKx3, and KKx2 Goku was only 2K lower), utterly stomped Cui, (who he was merely over by 6K), thrashed Dodoria (who he was only 2K over at a PL of 24K), and Piccolo (at 3.5K) was considered outright inferior to Nappa (at 4K).

treat PL's as linear like that and the entire scaling of the series get's blown up, we never treated PL's as linear, we will not begin to do so now

But if you wanted to just ignore the mountain of evidence, the SEG literally states that the KKx4 KHH “outnumbered/overwhelmed” Vegeta’s power (same link as the Oozaru statement provided earlier).

the fact that you somehow felt the need to prove to me that he was overwhelmed is proof to me that you didn't bothered to read what i wrote:

Prove the "incredible damage" part, the attack was merely 2x stronger than Kaioken 2x, which he dominated, so the gap would be even smaller, it did overwhelmed him, but that doesn't say much for his damage

It’s also pretty explicitly nearly double Vegeta’s PL at 32K in the Daizenshuu.

And Vegeta's Galic Gun raises his power just like the kamehameha does, aka their PLs wouldn't be so different, at most unquantifiable, also this doesn't answer for the damage argument i made, that doesn't answer nor prove that Vegeta was in a state nearly as bad as Goku was after using KK4x

Fair, but it’s certainly beneath his 18,000 value, which is what would be multiplied, and thus still necessitates Vegeta’s increase in speed to keep up with a hypothetical KKx5 Goku.

as i said, no, Goku could be faster than him and the statement still works exactly the same, he doesn't need to be equal or faster than KK5x, he just needs to be fast enough to quickly cover the distance Goku could go before he could make the Genki Dama, thus making the usage of KK5x useless in that scenario no matter what

I’m not trying to make a proportional amp for scaling purposes. We all know it doesn’t work that way. I’m specifically pointing out how the ten times multiplier is explicitly noted by the SEG. Trying to paint it as something that it’s not doesn’t change that fact.

if you agree that it isn't proportional, then you can't use proportional logic to say that all stats are raised by the same amount when one raises PL, as shown by the statement abou the Oozaru in DBS Broly, that clearly isn't the case

1) It’d allow him to run away to a degree to charge the Genki Dama. Which is Goku’s goal. Because last time he tried to fly away, Vegeta was able to easily catch him with his speed.

he runs away.....now what? he has to stop moving to make the Genki Dama, and the moment stops using the Kaioken Vegeta will easily cover the ground to catch him since he is still fast enough to do that, case and point, Goku managed to get enough distance with Solar Flare, and yet it still made no difference, again, Speed advantage wouldn't be useful at all there

2) That’s literal Headcanon to sidestep the actual context and intent behind the statement. He’s not saying, “Man, I am faster, but he’ll catch up anyway!” He says “He’s incredibly fast! Even if I had the Kaioken x5, it wouldn’t be enough to get away!”

no, he says:


"even times 5 wouldn't make a difference" nothing about him not being able to run away from him with times 5, only that times 5 wouldn't make a difference, which as i pointed out, is true regardless of it being faster than Vegeta or not, heck the whole context is that he can't run away far enough for him to concentrate on making a Genki Dama without Vegeta catching up, nothing is ever said about him being unable to run away from Vegeta even a little at all

Again, trying to change/reinterpret the statement physically doesn’t work

considering that this is what you just did.......ironic

and makes no sense. Your argument as a retcon is superior to this and majorly more convincing because of this. In your words, “Prove,” that Goku meant all of this rather than what is objectively seen and said by him.

considering that nothing is objectively said there, with your interpretation being as valid as mine in that scene alone, however mine is backed up by statements in canon.......yeah i don't think i need to, specially when it isn't said what you said it was said

Read above.

same