BLEACH: Gremmy upgrade

[Apollonir.Scale]

So can't we consider Gremmy as squad 0 level?

SAFWY Zaraki defeated Azashiro's final form. I heard something called final form Azashiro~~Kuruyashiki. If that's true, that would make SAFWY Zaraki squad 0 level as well. Because Kuruyashiki was invited to squad 0 because of his power. This would at least show that Kuruyashiki is also a 4-A character.

Shikai Zaraki>Gremmy>Zaraki (not Shikai)>SAFWY Zaraki>Azashiro~~Kuruyashiki=Squad 0 level=4-A

Since there is no sternritter stronger than Gremmy except Jugram, Uryu, Gerard and Royd, I don't think that would be a problem. And yes, I think Gremmy>Pernida>Lille>Askin.

 

[CloverDragon03]

There is no sealed Ichibe tho, I have proved it.

Me when @CloverDragon03 realizes that there is no such thing as "sealed ichibei"
Which has been mentioned twice already, and has been blatantly ignored

You have used guesswork to justify a headcanon, sorry

 

[Hellscream]

You have used guesswork to justify a headcanon, sorry

Pull out the statement of Ichibei being sealed, or being under the oath of blood since that's essentially what you're claiming rn.

Burden of proof go BRRRRRRR

 

[Hellscream]

Just hold the L and move on bro, no need to be obnoxious

Literally spreading misinformation at this point

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

So can't we consider Gremmy as squad 0 level?

SAFWY Zaraki defeated Azashiro's final form. I heard something called final form Azashiro~~Kuruyashiki. If that's true, that would make SAFWY Zaraki squad 0 level as well. Because Kuruyashiki was invited to squad 0 because of his power. This would at least show that Kuruyashiki is also a 4-A character.

Shikai Zaraki>Gremmy>Zaraki (not Shikai)>SAFWY Zaraki>Azashiro~~Kuruyashiki=Squad 0 level=4-A

Since there is no sternritter stronger than Gremmy except Jugram, Uryu, Gerard and Royd, I don't think that would be a problem. And yes, I think Gremmy>Pernida>Lille>Askin.

It seems logical

 

[Infinite9Luck]

You have used guesswork to justify a headcanon, sorry

It’s not headcanon, if anything, the real headcanon is the claim that Ichibei was sealed.

1. We clearly see four emblems and one giant display. When the three other members sacrifice themselves, only one emblem remains—Senjumaru’s. Senjumaru then experiences a massive surge in power and aura, explicitly stating that they had sealed each other’s swords, and by dying, the seal was released.

1. There is no Ichibei emblem, nor a fifth emblem at all. Ichibei does not sacrifice himself to release Senjumaru’s power, nor does he experience a significant power boost like she does.

Can we debate this? Because you claim ichibei is sealed but the anime say and show otherwise.

 

[KillerNerd007]

I have read discussion rules regarding this matter, and this is what it's stated:

• Do not attempt to upgrade Gremmy Thoumeaux based on his feat of creating outer space, as this feat, despite legitimately scaling to his statistics, is extremely inconsistent with his general performance and the feats of other characters on his level and is thus considered an outlier.

I have checked the thread, and it's from a thread of 2021, so it's a thread that is quite old and most importantly even before the release of the new Bleach TYBWA anime.

I think this website should reflect the newest information and keep ratings updated with the release of new information.

The rule itself already said it legit scale to its statistics but I'll post scans again. Hopefully I'll not make errors.

CAN'T FEAR YOUR OWN WORD:

He is able to instantly create outer space, which contain at least a starry sky, hence a 4A rating according to this website AP chart.
I believe this is the most simple interpretation since it's subjective the presence of galaxies on the image.

Recently Kubo had an interview with the anime director, with him stating that indeed Gremmy can create even the outer space:

Spoiler: Explanation

Having established that all the canon and official sources verbatim confirm that Gremmy created it, just as he can create water, firearms, or meteors; he can simply create what he thinks of. Hence, the idea of opening a portal was wrong to begin with. He doesn’t even have that power; he just creates what he imagines.

Someone could argue that it’s inconsistent for him to create such a vast outer space, but it’s fiction. Even the firearms he created were enhanced specifically to harm Kenpachi, meaning what Gremmy creates has different levels of power, and it’s not an anti-feat. Multiple sources confirm that he can create things of such magnitude, so I think the author’s intent is clear and we should follow what the author think. The novel itself repeats this two or three times, why repeat something if it were an outlier? That is the question that should be asked. Additionally, the anime director's interview confirmed the same.

Zaraki would scale because the novel explicitly states that Gremmy was completely unable to imagine a body as strong as Zaraki’s, despite being able to imagine outer space. This means that Zaraki’s body, while in Shikai, surpasses anything Gremmy has imagined before.

Spoiler: Not An Outlier

Regarding the outlier argument, I believe this feat is quite consistent with the recent new feats introduced in the anime, making the scaling chain more consistent on cosmic level for god tiers as well.

Recently, this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/above-heaven-and-below-earth-0-alone-surpasses-13.160302/ by @Arc7Kuroi upgraded Squad Zero to 4-A. The God Tiers are much higher.

Squad Zero consists of characters who are not even God-Tiers within the realm of Bleach, so there is no real reason to dismiss Gremmy's feat, especially considering his reputation as the strongest Sternritter.

Please, let's keep the thread for the feat itself and focus on scaling for the future.

Spoiler: Scaling

I'm not familiar with all the scaling chain on this wiki, but my 2 cent is that his clones should not inherently multiply his AP since the concept of power of imagination functioning as a multiplier is quite vague. Given how imagination works, it is not a mathematical concept. Therefore, for this thread, I will strictly scale it to his seven clones. However, as I mentioned, the meteor and firearms were capable of harming Kenpachi, and the firearms were enhanced by Gremmy meaning the multiplier can also be the case, I'm not dismissing it. This means that Gremmy's power should not be limited to just those feats in the first place. The scaling can be discussed in future threads anyway, my intention is to keep this very simple.

I believe that until the new anime comes out the scaling should be limited and applied only to Gremmy's 7 clones, Zaraki Kenpachi with his Shikai, Gerard and Adult True Bankai Toshiro, since those are the only which directly scale either to Shikai Kenpachi or Gremmy's feat itself. Other characters have their own scaling and as such could be discussed in new threads

So, in conclusion, for 7 clones Gremmy's AP being 4A:

Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree:

I don't see much of an issue here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Pull out the statement of Ichibei being sealed, or being under the oath of blood since that's essentially what you're claiming rn.

Burden of proof go BRRRRRRR

Squad 0 explicitly keeps their power under wraps because it's cause the realms to tremble and all that, and Ichibe did not showcase anything that Senjumaru did when she used her true power (i.e. the golden aura)

Just hold the L and move on bro, no need to be obnoxious

Literally spreading misinformation at this point

The problem with debating people like you is that you for some reason don't know how to keep a normal discussion going and would rather try and appear victorious as opposed to actually addressing anything

If you would like to provide an actual response, by all means go ahead, but if you're just going to make unfunny attempts at insisting "you won" and all, don't be surprised if your responses aren't taken into consideration.

Shit like this is why I stopped debating HST scaling. Thanks for that reminder

 

[Infinite9Luck]

It’s not headcanon, if anything, the real headcanon is the claim that Ichibei was sealed.

1. We clearly see four emblems and one giant display. When the three other members sacrifice themselves, only one emblem remains—Senjumaru’s. Senjumaru then experiences a massive surge in power and aura, explicitly stating that they had sealed each other’s swords, and by dying, the seal was released.
2. There is no Ichibei emblem, nor a fifth emblem at all. Ichibei does not sacrifice himself to release Senjumaru’s power, nor does he experience a significant power boost like she does.

Can we debate this? Because you claim ichibei is sealed but the anime say and show otherwise.

@CloverDragon03 this is very important to address, if other people bother you avoid.

But read my argument please. It's important for the thread to solve the issue

it's the ep 13 of cour 2, if interested in watching.

 

[CloverDragon03]

@CloverDragon03 this is very important to address, if other people bother you avoid.

But read my argument please. It's important for the thread to solve the issue

it's the ep 13 of cour 2, if interested in watching.

My stance can be seen in my response to Hellscream, independent of my gripes with how he's conducted himself

 

[Infinite9Luck]

My stance can be seen in my response to Hellscream, independent of my gripes with how he's conducted himself

I saw you answer, but that is exactly why Ichibei is not sealed, the fact his aura never increase means he was not sealed before, and would be pretty dumb as well if he died without using his true power.

There are only 4 emblems, not 5. S0 + Ichibei is 5 total but only 4 emblems under the blood pact.

Hence, ichibei is not under the blood pact like the other squad zero members.

 

[Hellscream]

Squad 0 explicitly keeps their power under wraps because it's cause the realms to tremble and all that, and Ichibe did not showcase anything that Senjumaru did when she used her true power (i.e. the golden aura)

The problem with debating people like you is that you for some reason don't know how to keep a normal discussion going and would rather try and appear victorious as opposed to actually addressing anything

If you would like to provide an actual response, by all means go ahead, but if you're just going to make unfunny attempts at insisting "you won" and all, don't be surprised if your responses aren't taken into consideration.

Shit like this is why I stopped debating HST scaling. Thanks for that reminder

You've been responded to on multiple different occasions.

This dude is telling me that im doing mental gymnastics in order to pull out "headcanon" while not pulling up any form of proof whatsoever in order to assert that his supposed claims are legitimate.

Squad 0 explicitly keeps their power sealed, true
How are their powers sealed you ask? ---- that's absolutely right, it's the blood oath!

Now, how does the blood oath work you ask?
As shown here, there are 4 PLATES as you can see, they're 4 not 5 --- Now to further elaborate, in order for these said characters to be unsealed, it was stated that 3 of the 4 members need to die, in order for the last member to release their true power!

4 plates are active, meaning sealed power -

1 plate is active = power unsealed -


See the part where ichibei's power is not part of the seal?
What does this imply you ask?
It means ichibei's power is not sealed, as it's not a part of the seal

Simply because ichibei doesn't make the realms constantly tremble doesn't mean he isn't that powerful, like that's such a dumb claim
Otherwise she would've been trembling the realm the entire time, even more so when she went bankai.

the burden of proof is on you, to prove that ichibei is actually sealed (he isn't)

and stop with your bullshit strawman, and calling the arguments of your opposition strawmanning and headcanon.
Address the points, or withdraw your vote.

 

[Damage3245]

The issue come that there are characters like Zaraki; which Gremmy self-admitted, after seeing Zaraki shikai power, his imagination felt short, additionaly he could not imagine a body strong enough as well like Zaraki's, this because Zaraki was too strong for his imagination, in both body and power, this is a important narrative point as well in the story. Zaraki won because his power is superior to whatever Gremmy can imagine.

Zaraki Shikai's power > Gremmy's Imagination > The creation via reality warping of said outer space

Actually, Gremmy stated that he could fully imagine Zaraki's power, so Zaraki's power is not superior to Gremmy's imagination. In fact the novel exerpt you posted there states he could imagine a power that could outstrip Zaraki's power.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I saw you answer, but that is exactly why Ichibei is not sealed, the fact his aura never increase means he was not sealed before, and would be pretty dumb as well if he died without using his true power.

There are only 4 emblems, not 5. S0 + Ichibei is 5 total but only 4 emblems under the blood pact.

Hence, ichibei is not under the blood pact like the other squad zero members.

I see where you're coming from, but I find it super counterintuitive that it's brought up how even the slightest use of Squad 0's power is avoided because of its effects only for Ichibei to just be wielding that power all the time in his fight with Yhwach. To me, it's self-evident that all of Squad 0 (Ichibei included) have their true powers sealed for this very reason

 

[Hellscream]

I see where you're coming from, but I find it super counterintuitive that it's brought up how even the slightest use of Squad 0's power is avoided because of its effects only for Ichibei to just be wielding that power all the time in his fight with Yhwach. To me, it's self-evident that all of Squad 0 (Ichibei included) have their true powers sealed for this very reason

Ahh yes eureka! it's counterintuitive that not every character at that level makes these universal realms tremble at all points, while releasing their power!

Which means that Ichigo and Aizen should not scale to Senjumaru as their power didn't make the realms tremble, you're absolutely correct with your assessment!

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Actually, Gremmy stated that he could fully imagine Zaraki's power, so Zaraki's power is not superior to Gremmy's imagination. In fact the novel exerpt you posted there states he could imagine a power that could outstrip Zaraki's power.

Hi, thanks for answering again

Gremmy imaged his power perfectly, we can say equal or greater, but it's basically it's power, however he then admit that the fact he didn't imagined a body, it was just an excuse because his imagination failed to imagine it and felt short, and he was unable to do imagine a body as strong Zaraki's. Conceding only Zaraki's body could do so.

Also, gremmy literally killed himself doing so, but he didnt die imagine and creating outer space.

Zaraki's power > outer space.

Moreover the 7 clones that used energy to create the space, also suicided to try to kill him, and didnt managed to do so.

Zaraki's shikai power > 7 clones power > Outer Space.

 

[Hxskyy2005]

i agree with this feat. now that there is more evidence i would say unohana, aizen pre hogyoku, yamamoto, toshiro etc 4A

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I see where you're coming from, but I find it super counterintuitive that it's brought up how even the slightest use of Squad 0's power is avoided because of its effects only for Ichibei to just be wielding that power all the time in his fight with Yhwach. To me, it's self-evident that all of Squad 0 (Ichibei included) have their true powers sealed for this very reason

If we follow your logic, it would mean that Ichibei lost to Yhwach without even unleashing his full power. That would imply that Kubo is a terrible writer and mangaka since he failed to deliver and killed the hype.

The blood pact was made solely by the normal Squad Zero members, and I believe we both acknowledge this. So why include Ichibei in it?

I understand that Ichibei didn’t shake any universe, but neither did Aizen or Ichigo. For example, even in Dragon Ball and many other shonen series, there are cases where certain characters perform far superior feats, yet others still scale above them. That’s simply how things work in fiction.

 

[Hxskyy2005]

If we follow your logic, it would mean that Ichibei lost to Yhwach without even unleashing his full power. That would imply that Kubo is a terrible writer and mangaka since he failed to deliver and killed the hype.

The blood pact was made solely by the normal Squad Zero members, and I believe we both acknowledge this. So why include Ichibei in it?

I understand that Ichibei didn’t shake any universe, but neither did Aizen or Ichigo. For example, even in Dragon Ball and many other shonen series, there are cases where certain characters perform far superior feats, yet others still scale above them. That’s simply how things work in fiction.

I'm pretty sure that ichibei is able to hold the range that's why he did 0 shocks

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I'm pretty sure that ichibei is able to hold the range that's why he did 0 shocks

Yes.

Ichibei is the oldest being in the Bleach verse, the very oldest even older than soul king himself, we can assume his mastery of powers is beyond anyone else by far @CloverDragon03

 

[Damage3245]

Hi, thanks for answering again

Gremmy imaged his power perfectly, we can say equal or greater, but it's basically it's power, however he then admit that the fact he didn't imagined a body, it was just an excuse because his imagination failed to imagine it and felt short, and he was unable to do imagine a body as strong Zaraki's. Conceding only Zaraki's body could do so.

Also, gremmy literally killed himself doing so, but he didnt die imagine and creating outer space.

... Because the power of outer space wasn't inside his own body. Why would imaging outer space affect himself at all?

Moreover the 7 clones that used energy to create the space, also suicided to try to kill him, and didnt managed to do so.

Zaraki's shikai power > 7 clones power > Outer Space.

I don't see any indication that the attack they hit him with is comparable to creating several stars.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

... Because the power of outer space wasn't inside his own body. Why would imaging outer space affect himself at all?

I don't see any indication that the attack they hit him with is comparable to creating several stars.

This is an AOE fallacy. If the clones can casually generate enough energy to create outer space, then the energy released upon their suicide should be at least equal to or greater than that. Why would they output less energy?

We both know that creating something from nothing requires energy. Therefore, the clones must wield that same level of energy.

Additionally, it would undermine the narrative intent of both the author novel and the anime director. The claim "Gremmy can even create outer space" is meant to highlight the power and energy he wields.

They didn’t emphasize "Gremmy is so strong that he can send people into a vacuum." Instead, they specifically highlighted "Gremmy is so strong that he can create outer space."

 

[Damage3245]

This is an AOE fallacy. If the clones can casually generate enough energy to create outer space, then the energy released upon their suicide should be at least equal to or greater than that. Why would they output less energy?

Why would Gremmy try dropping a meteor on Kenpachi when he could imagine an explosion a quadrillion times more powerful?

They didn’t emphasize "Gremmy is so strong that he can send people into a vacuum." Instead, they specifically highlighted "Gremmy is so strong that he can create outer space."

He created outer space solely to deprive Kenpachi of oxygen.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Why would Gremmy try dropping a meteor on Kenpachi when he could imagine an explosion a quadrillion times more powerful?

He created outer space solely to deprive Kenpachi of oxygen.

He also created guns and firearms that managed to scratch Zaraki’s body. If we follow this logic, then Zaraki would be gun-level. However, an Espada like Ulquiorra was casually able to generate massive explosions that dwarfed cities and displaced tons of sand from the ground in seconds. It’s obvious that Gremmy enhances his creations, and this was still early in the fight.

Additionally, the clones' imagination doesn’t work in a linear fashion. For example, doubling imagination doesn’t equate to doubling power, imagination isn’t math.

I’m specifically claiming that only his seven clones and Shikai Zaraki would scale, which would naturally lead to a few more characters scaling to this feat. But it's like 5 at best? when the verse has already 10+ characters on those ranges.

Yes, but he did that, and creation require energy. he might have thought as well killing him via hax was better than just pure force.

Again why would authors highlight "he can even create the outer space" and not "he can send people to space" it is clear author intent, they think gremmy is amazing because he is strong enough to even create space.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If we follow your logic, it would mean that Ichibei lost to Yhwach without even unleashing his full power. That would imply that Kubo is a terrible writer and mangaka since he failed to deliver and killed the hype.

The blood pact was made solely by the normal Squad Zero members, and I believe we both acknowledge this. So why include Ichibei in it?

I understand that Ichibei didn’t shake any universe, but neither did Aizen or Ichigo. For example, even in Dragon Ball and many other shonen series, there are cases where certain characters perform far superior feats, yet others still scale above them. That’s simply how things work in fiction.

I'm gonna be honest I really don't see how the first part is a counterargument. Kubo's a great mangaka and Bleach is similarly an excellent series, but that doesn't mean writers can't make mistakes.

Don't get me wrong though, I do agree with the general notion that we shouldn't use the fact that characters don't do X feat with every single attack as an argument against a character's tiering. However, this case in particular is somewhat exceptional because it's verbatim stated within the series that even the slightest exertion of Squad Zero's true power would cause this. That's more concerning to me than a typical "oh they're not nuking universes with every attack so they can't possibly be 3-A" kind of example

 

[Da3ggman]

Keep ducking

This dude unironically has not addressed a single argument

Dawg you are not helping your case, please stop before someone reports you.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I'm gonna be honest I really don't see how the first part is a counterargument. Kubo's a great mangaka and Bleach is similarly an excellent series, but that doesn't mean writers can't make mistakes.

Don't get me wrong though, I do agree with the general notion that we shouldn't use the fact that characters don't do X feat with every single attack as an argument against a character's tiering. However, this case in particular is somewhat exceptional because it's verbatim stated within the series that even the slightest exertion of Squad Zero's true power would cause this. That's more concerning to me than a typical "oh they're not nuking universes with every attack so they can't possibly be 3-A" kind of example

I mean, that would be more like a scenario if we follow that logic. Ichibei is the one that displayed the longest fight, why would he die nerfed?
It is more likely that he died using everything he could.

But I think we should address the core issue, I think you acknowledge that the Blood Pact seal is for 4 members, and the lack on Ichibei seal is crucial.
Why would he be nerfed if there is no seal? Senjumaru also explain that other people need to die to unlock the seal but ichibei wasnt required as well.

Ichibei existed since the creation of the verse, he was not sealed at all, his mastery of his power could be claimed to be the best.

Additionaly, I wrote to @Deceived3596, and also agree Ichibei was not sealed and the profiles aren't updated.

 

[Adam1396]

Quick question….why can’t it just be listed as “[[Insert Normal Stat Here]], up to 4-A with Reality Warping”? Wouldn’t that clear up any scaling issues, since it’d be through Hax, and not any physical stats?

His creation is clearly tied to his stats and he can multiply his stats as well.

Also gotta clarify something, meteor isn't necessarily peak of his 2 clones

 

[Adam1396]

When did ichibei even showed his sealed form tf?

No offense, he either lacks knowledge and being a child denying to know more and be open, or he is being ignorant. Surprisingly this guy has been delivering funny arguments and a moment ago he was talking about productivity.
wadda fak is happening here!!!! Seriously!!
That's why I feel demotivated to knock mod's walls to get vote for my simple CRTs.

 

[Adam1396]

i agree with this feat. now that there is more evidence i would say unohana, aizen pre hogyoku, yamamoto, toshiro etc 4A

Yamamoto can potentially scale higher since he has direct statements about destruction capability.

It should be a calculated as collapse of the dimension within very short time frame. Though not sure if there's anything about the size of the dimension of soul society. But it's significantly larger than gremmy's dimension evidently.

I can see SZ sitting at tier 2

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

and stop with your bullshit strawman, and calling the arguments of your opposition strawmanning and headcanon.
Address the points, or withdraw your vote.

His vote doesn't decide the thread. But yes, I also believe he is very blatantly wrong in his argumentation. That being said, that doesn't mean he has to change his stance. He can keep holding on to his beliefs just as much as you hold to yours, independently of right or wrong.

You have continued making the thread unpleasant to engage in, honestly fairly rude and downright childish. Stop it.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Let’s try to remain composed. Moderators like @Damage3245 or @CloverDragon03 need to apply scrutiny to ensure that incorrect information isn’t accepted. However, debating exists to resolve the issue at hand. There are lot of scans, and argument to support correct indexing in this thread.

Additionally, bringing up other characters is not beneficial. Please focus on debating what needs to be addressed and avoid derailing the thread.

 

[Adam1396]

@Infinite9Luck
I think you can make thread with 4A scaling including all relevant characters.

I had discussion about this with @Arc7Kuroi quite a time ago. If there's any adjustment needed, he can handle it in future with his mass revisions after cours are complete. But you should go for 4A without delay, not any higher. I can help you with your arguments. At least you know now arguments against it are incredibly weak.

To avoid further misunderstanding, "that's my own words and suggestions, not rules"

 

[Infinite9Luck]

His vote doesn't decide the thread. But yes, I also believe he is very blatantly wrong in his argumentation. That being said, that doesn't mean he has to change his stance. He can keep holding on to his beliefs just as much as you hold to yours, independently of right or wrong.

You have continued making the thread unpleasant to engage in, honestly fairly rude and downright childish. Stop it.

Hi, thank you for joining the thread. I would also like to hear an opinion from an admin.

I can summarize both my arguments and those of the opposition if needed.

@Duedate8898’s Claim:​

• He argued that the stars could not be real and that the scans provided weren’t sufficient to prove Gremmy created outer space, since they were not directly from Kubo.

My Response:​

• I explained that Gremmy’s creations are always at least on par with, if not superior to, their real-life counterparts. Therefore, he needs to provide evidence to prove they are fake.
• I also clarified that the novel and anime are considered canon, and since official sources explicitly state that he “created outer space”, they should hold more weight than mere skepticism.
• After this, he stopped responding, so I don’t think his vote should be considered, but if he answer I'm willing to continue the debate.

@CloverDragon03’s Argument:​

• He actively engaged in the debate, and I appreciate that, I believe he conceded that the seal applied only to four people, but he still think that Ichibei was sealed, which seems contradictory.
• I’m still debating him, and maybe he has reconsidered his stance. Since the profiles haven’t been updated yet, I understand his argument, but I believe enough evidence has been posted to show that Ichibei was not sealed.

@Damage3245’s Argument:​

• He seems to have concerns regarding the energy required for creation and scaling. We are still debating and have yet to reach a conclusion, but I believe the core issue revolves around the energy needed for creation, he doesn’t seem to acknowledge it.
  However, I have made it clear that the seven clones had the energy to create outer space, yet when all of them self-destructed, their combined explosion was still unable to kill Zaraki. Additionally, Gremmy’s imagination fell short, either in envisioning Zaraki’s power or in imagining a body as strong as his. This further proves Zaraki’s superiority to Gremmy’s imagination.

I'm still open to debate with damage.

I think I have posted enough proof to do correct indexing, but I can provide more if needed.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hi, thank you for joining the thread. I would also like to hear an opinion from an admin.

I can summarize both my arguments and those of the opposition if needed.

@Duedate8898’s Claim:​

• He argued that the stars could not be real and that the scans provided weren’t sufficient to prove Gremmy created outer space, since they were not directly from Kubo.

My Response:​

• I explained that Gremmy’s creations are always at least on par with, if not superior to, their real-life counterparts. Therefore, he needs to provide evidence to prove they are fake.
• I also clarified that the novel and anime are considered canon, and since official sources explicitly state that he “created outer space”, they should hold more weight than mere skepticism.
• After this, he stopped responding, so I don’t think his vote should be considered.

@CloverDragon03’s Argument:​

• He actively engaged in the debate, and I appreciate that, I believe he conceded that the seal applied only to four people, but he still think that Ichibei was sealed, which seems contradictory.
• I’m still debating him, and maybe he has reconsidered his stance. Since the profiles haven’t been updated yet, I understand his argument, but I believe enough evidence has been posted to show that Ichibei was not sealed.

@Damage3245’s Argument:​

• He seems to have concerns regarding energy for creation and scaling, we are still debating, and we have yet to reach a conclusion, but I think the core issue is about energy needed for creation, he seems to do not acknowledge it. However I think I made clear how the 7 clones had the energy to create outer space, yet they suicide explosion of all the clones combined could not kill Zaraki as well gremmy's imagination felt short due to either imagine zaraki power or imaging his body, which would prove zaraki's superiority to his imagination.

I think I have posted enough proof to do correct indexing, but I can provide more if needed.

I very much see your side. I definitely disagree with both Duedate and Clover. That being said, at least for Damages vote, I think he gave a very good argument here:

Even if we accepted that Gremmy did create legitimate stars, I don't see that as being a reason to assume that the explosion he hit Kenpachi with scales to the value of creating multiple stars. It appears to be applying a very loose powerscaling of imagination power to just be whatever is convenient for us.

And I personally find your rebuttal to it lacking.

However, I am overall of the same opinion as Arc, mainly the following:

The best you can concretely give Gremmy here is “up to 4-A with Reality Warping (blah 8 Gremmy did this blah)”. I do think a strong case can be made for that rating to go on Gremmy’s profile; however, it’s very much a fluff rating in terms of scaling. That’s to say I don’t really care if he gets it or not lol.

So I consider myself neutral if leaning to disagree with any form of scaling to outer space currently. That being said, I am generally fairly open minded, and do find there's promise in the arguments you have given so far. So will be on the lookout.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

So I consider myself neutral if leaning to disagree with any form of scaling to outer space currently. That being said, I am generally fairly open minded, and do find there's promise in the arguments you have given so far. So will be on the lookout.

I see your stance, and @Arc7Kuroi commented very early on the thread I hope he can answer again to my message given I provided more info.

I also hope @Damage3245 address this.
One could argue that there were eight Gremmy clones in total; however, there were also eight during the suicide attack.

In the recent anime adaptation, we see that seven of those clones were actively creating outer space. This means that those seven clones wielded enough energy to generate a space filled with stars, as supported by the Creation Feats page. In Bleach, if a character attempts to wield more energy than their body can handle, they would simply crumble. This actually happened to Gremmy when he tried to imagine a power as strong as Zaraki’s, but notably, it did not happen when he imaged to create outer space.

This confirms that the seven clones had enough energy to create outer space without any struggle. However, in the very next moment, these same seven clones attempted to self-destruct in an effort to kill Zaraki.

If the clones self-destructed, they should have at least released the same amount of energy they previously demonstrated. Why would their complete self-destruction emit less energy than an attack they created effortlessly? Why would they output less energy at the moment of their ultimate sacrifice?

Additionally, if Gremmy’s imagination completely collapsed when attempting to either imagine Shikai Zaraki’s power or recreate his body, it means that his imagination hit its absolute limit while trying to do so. This suggests that Zaraki’s Shikai would logically scale above Gremmy’s imagination. And that's I would say even if subjective, it's the point of the fight.

It would also be strange and inconsistent if Gremmy were able to exert more energy to create outer space and then suddenly began struggling with a less impressive display of power. Given that this is a shonen series, the natural progression of power makes much more sense under this interpretation.

So, in the end, I believe that the scan posted above, along with this reasoning, can be used to index the strength of these characters who scale above Shikai Zaraki and 7 clones Gremmy, in this wiki.

A small addition to this would be that just a couple of months after his fight with Gremmy, Zaraki is already indexed at Galaxy level in this wiki. Therefore, rather than being an outlier, I believe this rating serves as supportive evidence showcasing the presence of cosmic-level power in Bleach.

The Key Questions:

1. If the clones self-destructed, why would their suicide explosion emit less energy than the outer space they effortlessly created the moments earlier?
2. Why would the exact same seven clones suddenly output less energy at the moment of their ultimate sacrifice when Gremmy was desperate to KILL zaraki in a suicide?
3. Why would the author specifically highlight "Gremmy is strong enough to create outer space", only for the same exact clones to output less energy upon their destruction in an ultimate sacrifice if Gremmy WANTED to win?
4. Why Gremmy looked fine while creating and imagine an outer space, but looked visibly exhausted after send to suicide all his clones? it's clear the latter needed a greater effort
5. Why did The Visionary have no difficulty creating outer space, but suddenly collapsed when Gremmy attempted to either imagine Zaraki’s strength or recreate his body?

I might be busy now, I'll answer tommorow in case.

 

[Duedate8898]

My argument wasn't ever that the stars weren't real. Again, I disagreed for the reason Damage and Clover listed.

I was attacking the support provided in the OP because I saw the logic as faulty.

OP claimed that Kubo said that Gremmy created space, when the scan provided does not have Kubo saying that. After that, I then outlined that assuming that these people saying that Gremmy created outerspace isn't them acknowledging that he created stars because as far as they're concerned the stars aren't important for what's being showcased. I then broke down how the simplest explanation isn't that Gremmy is able to fully grasp all these complicated things and imagine them fully because that's a very large leap in logic which isn't really backed. It's simpler to say that whatever Gremmy was doing is enough to threaten SS and Kenpachi and end it there because it us who are making all of these logical leaps to make this feat into 4-A.

 

[Damage3245]

In the recent anime adaptation, we see that seven of those clones were actively creating outer space. This means that those seven clones wielded enough energy to generate a space filled with stars, as supported by the Creation Feats page. In Bleach, if a character attempts to wield more energy than their body can handle, they would simply crumble. This actually happened to Gremmy when he tried to imagine a power as strong as Zaraki’s, but notably, it did not happen when he imaged to create outer space.

Just for the sake of clarification (it has been a good while since I've done a re-read of Bleach), when is it stated that Gremmy converts spiritual energy / pressure into whatever he imagines? My understanding is that he just uses the power of his imagination, not the power of spiritual energy for his feats. As you mentioned earlier, simply doubling himself doesn't actually double the amount of energy he has access to or increase his AP in a linear fashion, it just doubles his "power of imagination".

 

[Infinite9Luck]

My argument wasn't ever that the stars weren't real. Again, I disagreed for the reason Damage and Clover listed.

I was attacking the support provided in the OP because I saw the logic as faulty.

OP claimed that Kubo said that Gremmy created space, when the scan provided does not have Kubo saying that. After that, I then outlined that assuming that these people saying that Gremmy created outerspace isn't them acknowledging that he created stars because as far as they're concerned the stars aren't important for what's being showcased. I then broke down how the simplest explanation isn't that Gremmy is able to fully grasp all these complicated things and imagine them fully because that's a very large leap in logic which isn't really backed. It's simpler to say that whatever Gremmy was doing is enough to threaten SS and Kenpachi and end it there because it us who are making all of these logical leaps to make this feat into 4-A.

Hi, I never claimed that Kubo said that. What I stated is that the anime director mentioned it in an interview with him, and I also referenced Narita, the officially licensed author of the canon novel, who confirmed it as well. Their statements should take precedence over skepticism.

You might think that the stars aren’t important, but they are a fundamental part of outer space. Many verses receive power ratings simply for having dimensions that contain stars. Gremmy created those stars, and they are essential for replicating the conditions of outer space.

• Space is a near-perfect vacuum, meaning there’s almost no air (including oxygen)
  
  
• This vacuum exists because stars drive away gas and particles through intense radiation and stellar winds, preventing an atmosphere from forming in open space.

So yes, stars are a fundamental part of outer space, simply create a space would not sort the classical outer space we have in real life. Everything in our universe has a purpose.

I’ve already responded to your message, and if you’d like, you are welcome to counter my points to that message.

 

[Adam1396]

Just for the sake of clarification (it has been a good while since I've done a re-read of Bleach), when is it stated that Gremmy converts spiritual energy / pressure into whatever he imagines? My understanding is that he just uses the power of his imagination, not the power of spiritual energy for his feats. As you mentioned earlier, simply doubling himself doesn't actually double the amount of energy he has access to or increase his AP in a linear fashion, it just doubles his "power of imagination".

I think he already addressed the issue of how it's tied to raw power. Otherwise he could have just created a person with more raw power, since his whole point was to crush zaraki in a head on confrontation of physical damage rather than haxing out.

Creating things from nothing requires energy. At a zero state, all matter is the same. If someone can bring to reality whatever they imagine, yet they are able to create a space filled with stars but not a strong enough body because it surpasses the power of imagination itself, then this means that the body's strength exceeds the power of imagination, and that was also pretty much the whole point of the fight tbh.

I will add more.
His cloning creates authentic version of himself. He is creating life form itself with spiritual energy. So it's simply illogical that it won't increase his stats.
And
when his creations gets destroyed, that takes toll on his real body, which is why he gets exhausted.