- 3,136
- 3,163
In this thread it was accepted to replace this calculation for Uryu's perception, now the value is far lower, so I think it's not worth listing on Uryu's profile since he scales higher anyway.
In this thread those two calcs were removed, the latter acted as a big support for this rating, it should also be removed, the statement used not at all implies literal SoL/near SoL speed, it's merely a flowery way of describing very fast movement, it even straight up spells out "it would appear as if they're under the illusion". So yeah that part should also go.
And lastly in this thread a new distance between Reiokyu and Seireitei was accepted, so Yhwach's darkness/Mimihagi's speed are downgraded alongside everyone who scales.And Yhwach's telekinesis is too I suppose. Pretty simple.
In this thread those two calcs were removed, the latter acted as a big support for this rating, it should also be removed, the statement used not at all implies literal SoL/near SoL speed, it's merely a flowery way of describing very fast movement, it even straight up spells out "it would appear as if they're under the illusion". So yeah that part should also go.
And lastly in this thread a new distance between Reiokyu and Seireitei was accepted, so Yhwach's darkness/Mimihagi's speed are downgraded alongside everyone who scales.
True Shikai Ichigo's combat speed calculation should be replaced with it's anime version, there is a notable difference between the two.
In the manga Ichigo is attacked by Bambies from all sides and seemingly by more than 4 arrows too. In the anime scene however, they all shoot from one direction and only once. Considering the anime is the primary canon, the anime calculation should take the precedence.
In the manga Ichigo is attacked by Bambies from all sides and seemingly by more than 4 arrows too. In the anime scene however, they all shoot from one direction and only once. Considering the anime is the primary canon, the anime calculation should take the precedence.
This part will talk about the Ichigo reacting to Kamishini calculation, why it's not usable, and Kamishini no Yari in general
I will breakdown all times Gin had used his bankai
In his 1st use Gin doesn't point it at Ichigo, but at the buildings behind himself, and only then proceeds to swing it at Ichigo (which means Ichigo isn't reacting to the sword's extension).
After that, Ichigo completely fails to perceive Gin's sword, despite never taking his eyes off it
This is clearly not just the retraction speed that blitzes Ichigo (as the calculation claims) either, as Ichigo concludes that the moment the tip points at him he's finished, meaning it would hit him, which is exactly what happens when GIn actually points it at Ichigo
In it's 3rd use, Ichigo specifically prevents Gin from pointing his sword at him
Ichigo considers Gin Bankai's speed to be scary, listing both lengthening and shortening, further supporting that one isn't superior to the other, nothing implies that the retraction is for some reason that much faster than the extension. Both are overwhelmingly fast for Ichigo.
When hearing the actual speed of Kamishimi no Yari (mach 500) the fastest Zanpakuto, Ichigo is visibly shocked
Next time, Ichigo just barely manages to block it, with Gin saying it was pure luck (keeping in mind Gin isn't even trying to kill Ichigo here)
Now for the last few exchanges, Ichigo closely manages to avoid Buto, sure, but the problem is, for that small movement Ichigo did, Gin's sword extended kilometers ahead and back, meaning this shouldn't be considered anything but a very narrow dodge, especially looking at all the previous interactions. After all, you do not have to be as fast as the thing you're dodging, coupled with the fact that Ichigo clearly saw Gin take an unusual stance prior to using Buto, thus having more time to react. The Bankai was still massively faster.
Same goes for the very last interaction, and consequently the feat in the calculation this is all about, it's very obviously portrayed to be a last second dodge/block (the whole thing being basically off screen covered by dust at that), not a showing of a superiority, with Ichigo still losing to Gin even when using the mask, therefore very clearly falling under Evading Punches rule, same as the previous dodge, and should not be calculated.
To support this even further, Gin and Ichigo keep up with each other the whole fight, so they are comparable in speed (as currently accepted), Kamishini no Yari is Gin's trump card - his bankai, consistently shown to be far faster than both, meaning Gin has absolutely no reason to scale more than 5 times over his own Bankai.
Not to mention that Gin wasn't fighting to kill, and was merely testing Ichigo (as we learn later on, Gin was actually putting his hopes on Ichigo to stop Aizen), putting it simply, he wouldn't attack in such a way that leaves Ichigo no chance of surviving, despite the overwhelming speed of his Bankai.
This would extend even further beyond, as Third Fusion Aizen also completely fails to react to Gin's Bankai, despite knowing that Gin would betray him all this time.
So my proposal is, removal of the calculation and a Mach 500 cap for everyone below Third Fusion Aizen.
I will breakdown all times Gin had used his bankai
In his 1st use Gin doesn't point it at Ichigo, but at the buildings behind himself, and only then proceeds to swing it at Ichigo (which means Ichigo isn't reacting to the sword's extension).
After that, Ichigo completely fails to perceive Gin's sword, despite never taking his eyes off it
This is clearly not just the retraction speed that blitzes Ichigo (as the calculation claims) either, as Ichigo concludes that the moment the tip points at him he's finished, meaning it would hit him, which is exactly what happens when GIn actually points it at Ichigo
In it's 3rd use, Ichigo specifically prevents Gin from pointing his sword at him
Ichigo considers Gin Bankai's speed to be scary, listing both lengthening and shortening, further supporting that one isn't superior to the other, nothing implies that the retraction is for some reason that much faster than the extension. Both are overwhelmingly fast for Ichigo.
When hearing the actual speed of Kamishimi no Yari (mach 500) the fastest Zanpakuto, Ichigo is visibly shocked
Next time, Ichigo just barely manages to block it, with Gin saying it was pure luck (keeping in mind Gin isn't even trying to kill Ichigo here)
Now for the last few exchanges, Ichigo closely manages to avoid Buto, sure, but the problem is, for that small movement Ichigo did, Gin's sword extended kilometers ahead and back, meaning this shouldn't be considered anything but a very narrow dodge, especially looking at all the previous interactions. After all, you do not have to be as fast as the thing you're dodging, coupled with the fact that Ichigo clearly saw Gin take an unusual stance prior to using Buto, thus having more time to react. The Bankai was still massively faster.
Same goes for the very last interaction, and consequently the feat in the calculation this is all about, it's very obviously portrayed to be a last second dodge/block (the whole thing being basically off screen covered by dust at that), not a showing of a superiority, with Ichigo still losing to Gin even when using the mask, therefore very clearly falling under Evading Punches rule, same as the previous dodge, and should not be calculated.
To support this even further, Gin and Ichigo keep up with each other the whole fight, so they are comparable in speed (as currently accepted), Kamishini no Yari is Gin's trump card - his bankai, consistently shown to be far faster than both, meaning Gin has absolutely no reason to scale more than 5 times over his own Bankai.
Not to mention that Gin wasn't fighting to kill, and was merely testing Ichigo (as we learn later on, Gin was actually putting his hopes on Ichigo to stop Aizen), putting it simply, he wouldn't attack in such a way that leaves Ichigo no chance of surviving, despite the overwhelming speed of his Bankai.
This would extend even further beyond, as Third Fusion Aizen also completely fails to react to Gin's Bankai, despite knowing that Gin would betray him all this time.
So my proposal is, removal of the calculation and a Mach 500 cap for everyone below Third Fusion Aizen.
"Gin covered the attack on Aizen with his sleeves!" - that shouldn't matter, since Shinigami always fight via sensing Reishi, Reikaku, not just their eyes, with Reikaku actually taking a PRIORITY over their vision, with the visual of a blindfold further supporting that they're able to sense without seeing at all, especially at Aizen's level, he should've sensed Gin's blade extending effortlessly, yet he could not move an inch in response.
"Gin's Bankai is NOT actually Mach 500" not only would such claim need a separate crt, since it's currently accepted as Mach 500 (and has been for years) and is used for the calculation, it also just doesn't make sense, seeing how the manga makes it clear cut that the comparison is made to the sound. "Klap -You hear that? It's 500 times faster than that". The databook is also using sound as a benchmark "surpassing the speed of sound".
"It's only the retraction speed" I have already addressed that above, but to reiterate, this is obviously not the case as both's speeds are treated as interchangeable, with the databook also outlining them as one and the same.
"Gin LIED about his Bankai's speed", a weird misinterpretation of Gin's words. Gin is very clearly saying that he told Aizen about his Bankai's ability a while back, and that THIS time was a lie. Gin lied to Aizen, not to Ichigo, we have no idea what he told Aizen, he has no reason to lie to Ichigo, he absolutely had a reason to lie to Aizen. Gin's explanation on his Bankai's speed is further reiterated by the above mentioned databook, so it's definitely not a lie and is valid.
"Gin's Bankai is NOT actually Mach 500" not only would such claim need a separate crt, since it's currently accepted as Mach 500 (and has been for years) and is used for the calculation, it also just doesn't make sense, seeing how the manga makes it clear cut that the comparison is made to the sound. "Klap -You hear that? It's 500 times faster than that". The databook is also using sound as a benchmark "surpassing the speed of sound".
"It's only the retraction speed" I have already addressed that above, but to reiterate, this is obviously not the case as both's speeds are treated as interchangeable, with the databook also outlining them as one and the same.
"Gin LIED about his Bankai's speed", a weird misinterpretation of Gin's words. Gin is very clearly saying that he told Aizen about his Bankai's ability a while back, and that THIS time was a lie. Gin lied to Aizen, not to Ichigo, we have no idea what he told Aizen, he has no reason to lie to Ichigo, he absolutely had a reason to lie to Aizen. Gin's explanation on his Bankai's speed is further reiterated by the above mentioned databook, so it's definitely not a lie and is valid.
Everyone will scale from Mach 107
True Zanpakuto Ichigo, Almighty Awakened Yhwach, Mimihagi, likely Dangai ichigo and likely Final Fusion Aizen will now scale to Mach 1707.29
Yhwach's Auswahlen will scale to Mach 5690.96
Merged Hollow Form Ichigo, True Zanpakuto Ichigo with Bankai, Soul King Absorbed Yhwach, TYBW Aizen, possibly Second Fight Hikone, possibly CFYOW Novel Kenpachi, possibly CFYOW Novel Ginjo, TYBW Orihime will scale to Mach 8 536,45
Merged Hollow Form Ichigo with Bankai and Soul King will scale to Mach 42682,25 or 0.048c
True Zanpakuto Ichigo, Almighty Awakened Yhwach, Mimihagi, likely Dangai ichigo and likely Final Fusion Aizen will now scale to Mach 1707.29
Yhwach's Auswahlen will scale to Mach 5690.96
Merged Hollow Form Ichigo, True Zanpakuto Ichigo with Bankai, Soul King Absorbed Yhwach, TYBW Aizen, possibly Second Fight Hikone, possibly CFYOW Novel Kenpachi, possibly CFYOW Novel Ginjo, TYBW Orihime will scale to Mach 8 536,45
Merged Hollow Form Ichigo with Bankai and Soul King will scale to Mach 42682,25 or 0.048c
Disagree: @Dalesean027 (Disagrees with the cap), @Nierre (Disagrees with the cap), @LephyrTheRevanchist (Disagrees with the cap), @Duedate8898 (Disagrees with the cap), @DarkDragonMedeus (Disagrees with the cap)
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