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Bleach - Yhwach 2-A Almighty Range Revision Thread.

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Deagonx said:
The basic fact remains the same, if we are purporting that Almighty gives Yhwach omniscience (which it is specifically stated to not do) then any event that strays from his expectations is problematic.
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The Scan doesn't support your argument though. the context is explicitly telling us that at this moment Yhwach doesnt have Omniscience because his power has been swapped while he was asleep.

the line of " RIGHT NOW Yhwach doesnt have the power of Omniscience and Omnipotence" Implies that there is a period of time when Yhwach has those things, other wise there wouldnt be a need to literally spell out that Yhwach is currently in Vulnerable position that Ichigo can take advantage of.
 
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OP post didn’t bring anything new to the table. Like any reason at all to make the thread. Threads like these should not be valid in the future, otherwise, anyone can just write “I am making this thread to discuss wherever X character has X thing, power, etc and you guys can discuss argue about it, peace out.”✌️

This thread should be close and someone who actually wants to bring any downgrade should make their own work and bring the evidence to said table before even making this type of threads.

I don’t see how this is allowed.
 
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Deagonx said:
The basic fact remains the same, if we are purporting that Almighty gives Yhwach omniscience (which it is specifically stated to not do) then any event that strays from his expectations is problematic. He quite literally should not be capable of surprise.

I mean, this is even directly stated in the manga.

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that scan has no weigh since Uryu is talking about a specific moment where YH does not have his A
 
I think the point with the scan is that Jugram who has the Almighty didn't see Uryu like this when he otherwise should've.

That said, I do have to ask does anyone know exactly what the new standards for 2-A potency is? As I understood the old rules, he was fine. But because they were updated recently, I'd like to make sure he still qualifies.
 
I remember, but we're also shown instances of Yhwach not foreseeing certain things as well, as he mentioned with the likes of not expecting Aizen in the position that he was. As I said in the thread where this all popped up, there are some holes in Yhwach's vision. Which wouldn't debunk him from having 2-A potency last I checked, he just has some flaws.

Though again, that's based off of the old standards.
 
Duedate8898 said:
I remember, but we're also shown instances of Yhwach not foreseeing certain things as well, as he mentioned with the likes of not expecting Aizen in the position that he was. As I said in the thread where this all popped up, there are some holes in Yhwach's vision. Which wouldn't debunk him from having 2-A potency last I checked, he just has some flaws.

Though again, that's based off of the old standards.
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I think Aizen one was already explained by others many times. Aizen can mess up Yhwach vision even before he got Almighty. Can you tell us apart from Aizen whom did yhwach didn't see. All i see you guys are only bringing one point.
 
Duedate8898 said:
I do have to ask does anyone know exactly what the new standards for 2-A potency is?
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To see the future of all Infinite timelines, not just the Infinite variation of same future within one timeline. Like what doctor strange did in infinity war he watched atleast millions of ways in which they can defeat thanos but only found one. That won't be 2B but just special type of precog. I believe this thread is arguing samething.
 
Reiner said:
To see the future of all Infinite timelines, not just the Infinite variation of same future within one timeline. Like what doctor strange did in infinity war he watched atleast millions of ways in which they can defeat thanos but only found one. That won't be 2B but just special type of precog. I believe this thread is arguing samething.
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Oh okay, that's interesting. If this is the new standard, then I guess Yhwach does no longer meet the standard for either 2-A precog or fate manipulation since I don't think we treat the Bleach cosmology as being one which has separate timelines like that.
 
… did people seriously forget Yhwach’s threat to Ichigo? That he would go to the moment Ichigo was happiest and ruin it for him? We literally see this in the epilogue when 10 years after Yhwach died, he appears and goes after Kazui but he is either killed in the present due to being powernulled at the time before he can make do on his threat or Kazui bleeped him from existence. Either way, we know he can affect the future in the future. His threats and statements are legit. Close the thread already.
 
Duedate8898 said:
No one is arguing that Yhwach can't affect the future with the All-Mighty. The argument here is whether or not this meets the conditions of 2-A with newly revised standards.
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Most of the arguments made here are based on affecting not regarding precognition.

Aldo Each futures are disconnected from one to another. Unlike MCU. Currently Yhwach still Qualifies with that.
 
If you're going to say that, I'm going to ask why you're saying that and what proof we have. Looking at the sand analogy Yhwach uses, if the future diverges from a single point in time like countless grains of sand then the futures are connected. Then again, the official translation does not mention that diverging timelines angles, but Yhwach does talk about someone like Ichigo hopping from grain to grain so it still points towards these strands being branches.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Oh okay, that's interesting. If this is the new standard, then I guess Yhwach does no longer meet the standard for either 2-A precog or fate manipulation since I don't think we treat the Bleach cosmology as being one which has separate timelines like that.
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They were treated as separate timelines when the original thread for Multiversal+ Range was made last year (if I understood everything right that is). Arc who currently holds the information and the main argument (also the person who originally made the Multiversal+ thread) about this is currently on vacation, so I think it'd be better to wait for them since they seem the most knowledgeable on this subject.
 
Also the justification for the range on the profile has been fixed and a temporary replacement has been added, so I believe checking the scans would also help the discussion as it isn't just the sand analogy.
 
Duedate8898 said:
If you're going to say that, I'm going to ask why you're saying that and what proof we have. Looking at the sand analogy Yhwach uses, if the future diverges from a single point in time like countless grains of sand then the futures are connected. Then again, the official translation does not mention that diverging timelines angles, but Yhwach does talk about someone like Ichigo hopping from grain to grain so it still points towards these strands being branches.
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Well Arc said he will drop the raws and explain better. Also If I am correct there were other statements which backs up multiple timelines co existing in bleach let me check
 
Every single thing, or person he didn’t saw with Almighty was explained in universe. It was not a fault of the Almighty, but characters resistance feats and clear cut acausality been involved.
 
On the point of Yhwach and Jugram not seeing Uryu with the Almighty shouldnt this be a feat for Uryu instead of a anti feat for yhwach?

-even with the Almighty on,he never doubted Uryu Allegiance
-never saw the Arrow coming(it was with Uryu).
-when looking through the Almighty, Jugram could see things happening but couldnt confirm whether Uryu was involved.
-Yhwach saying Uryu power surpassed his own(idk if he meant Almighty or himself)
-Uryu being the only mixed quincy that Wasnt affected by Auswählen.

doesnt this all point to Uryu just having something about him that prevents the Almighty working on him.
My theory is that every time Almighty or Auswählen is used on Uryu that it activates on itself to prevent them working on him.

kubo himself said the plot point behind Uryu not being Affected is Complicated but that we might see it in tybw anime.
 
skippy said:
On the point of Yhwach and Jugram not seeing Uryu with the Almighty shouldnt this be a feat for Uryu instead of a anti feat for yhwach?

-even with the Almighty on,he never doubted Uryu Allegiance
-never saw the Arrow coming(it was with Uryu).
-when looking through the Almighty, Jugram could see things happening but couldnt confirm whether Uryu was involved.
-Yhwach saying Uryu power surpassed his own(idk if he meant Almighty or himself)
-Uryu being the only mixed quincy that Wasnt affected by Auswählen.

doesnt this all point to Uryu just having something about him that prevents the Almighty working on him.
My theory is that every time Almighty or Auswählen is used on Uryu that it activates on itself to prevent them working on him.

kubo himself said the plot point behind Uryu not being Affected is Complicated but that we might see it in tybw anime.
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Kubo said he is planning to expand upon that and explain it in the anime.
 
Deagonx said:
Deceived pointed out that Yhwach claimed to have crushed all Bankai in the future, thus implying he can influence things in other realms or far away from him (such as the Bankai that existed elsewhere). However, we saw no indication of this occurring in the story, and when he destroys Ichigo's Bankai he does so physically, so there's no real indication he can just remotely destroy Bankai with the Almighty.
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He didn't do it in the presetn though, he did it elsewhere, which the almighty let him do
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
I think Aizen one was already explained by others many times.
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I think @Duedate8898 is right here, yes it has been "explained" in the sense that people have claimed that it was due to Aizens ability, but in context this just isn't how that confrontation is treated. For Yhwach it was just a casual surprise, when in reality if the sole reason for him not expecting Aizen to be there was Aizen's ability, it would have been a much more serious revelation (a distinct blindspot in what is otherwise being claimed to be a completely omniscient ability).

And no real rebuttal has been given to the logical errors in assuming he can just remotely destroy Bankai across the world. He even notes that he foresaw Ichigo arriving with a repaired Bankai, but he couldn't destroy it ahead of time (which resulted, ultimately, in his own death).
 
Deagonx said:
I think @Duedate8898 is right here, yes it has been "explained" in the sense that people have claimed that it was due to Aizens ability, but in context this just isn't how that confrontation is treated. For Yhwach it was just a casual surprise, when in reality if the sole reason for him not expecting Aizen to be there was Aizen's ability, it would have been a much more serious revelation (a distinct blindspot in what is otherwise being claimed to be a completely omniscient ability).
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Already explained. Aizen has Hogyoku SK body parts. It's not unnatural to Yhwach not seeing Aizen in SS. We know SK has resistance to Precognition. Check his profile. We not gonna talk about Yhwach being under ks even before attaining SK Almighty
Deagonx said:
And no real rebuttal has been given to the logical errors in assuming he can just remotely destroy Bankai across the world. He even notes that he foresaw Ichigo arriving with a repaired Bankai, but he couldn't destroy it ahead of time (which resulted, ultimately, in his own death).
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That was Aizen showing vision to Yhwach. Also the fight was literally going back and forth like it wasn't like Yhwach was seeing things he was supposed to see.

Also Precognition has nothing to do with his affecting range. Even if we go by your logic and say Yhwach can affect things only which are infront of him then it still doesn't change the fact he can still see the future on infinite different timelines.

Additionally Tsukishima created a new past which made a new future to happen hence Orihime can fix Ichigo Zanpackto. Which also shows futures/Timelines are disconnected from one another. Yhwach was able to see the future which came later onwards by Tsukishima making up the new past.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
Already explained.
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Like I said, this explanation doesn't fit the context of the scene, IMO. Im just making sure the situation is not misrepresented as some kind of misunderstanding that has been resolved, I still have a big problem with the claim being made.

EldemadeDityjon said:
Also Precognition has nothing to do with his affecting range. Even if we go by your logic and say Yhwach can affect things only which are infront of him then it still doesn't change the fact he can still see the future on infinite different timelines.
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I feel like this is the third time I have clarified to you specifically that I am not talking about his precognition here.

EldemadeDityjon said:
Additionally Tsukishima created a new past which made a new future to happen hence Orihime can fix Ichigo Zanpackto. Which also shows futures/Timelines are disconnected from one another. Yhwach was able to see the future which came later onwards by Tsukishima making up the new past.
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This doesn't explain why Yhwach wasn't able to destroy his Bankai even though he could see it in his Almighty, given this claim that he can do so automatically no matter how far away it is (something that is only supported by a specific interpretation of a statement Yhwach made, which was never shown later on)
 
Deagonx said:
Like I said, this explanation doesn't fit the context of the scene, IMO. Im just making sure the situation is not misrepresented as some kind of misunderstanding that has been resolved, I still have a big problem with the claim being made.


I feel like this is the third time I have clarified to you specifically that I am not talking about his precognition here.


This doesn't explain why Yhwach wasn't able to destroy his Bankai even though he could see it in his Almighty, given this claim that he can do so automatically no matter how far away it is (something that is only supported by a specific interpretation of a statement Yhwach made, which was never shown later on)
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If you are not talking about precognition then what's this debate is even for? His multi+ range is only for Precognition & Fate Manipulation. If you are referring to only his fate manipulation. Then I am gonna be neutral I will let arc or Deceived handle that. I have nothing else ri say to that.

As for how things are with enough context even (,just saying) if Fate Manipulation gets removed his Precognition range should remain as Multi+.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
If you are not talking about precognition then what's the debate is even for? His multi+ range is only for Precognition & Fate Manipulation.
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Seems like you answered your own question.

EldemadeDityjon said:
As for how things are with enough context even (,just saying) if Fate Manipulation gets removed his Precognition range should remain as Multi+.
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His precognition arguably shouldn't have a range at all. That's not something we usually add to precog abilities.
 
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