Bloodborne 8-A Downgrade

[Mr. Bambu]

Summary

So with recent KE revisions (by recent I mean looong time ago) the 8-A feat no longer applies, as you can see by this thread. Quoting several core parts below...

Quotes

• "A baseball is throw against a wall at relativistic speed and only leaves a small dent in the wall. Since energy to destroy a wall is far below the KE this should probably not be considered."

• "As such feats like just running or carrying a small object, like another character, should only be used if the fiction has made clear that the speed of the movement correlates to the characters power or if the character uses the fast moving object to attack. Calculating the energy necessary for moving large structures at great speeds, using the speed things move as a secondary effect of an attack, throwing objects at great speeds etc. are all acceptable methods of quantifying a characters power regardless."

• "A character picks up a 200 kg steel ball, throws it against a normal brick wall at mach 200 and it bounces of without causing any damage. The feat would be perfectly accetable if it weren't for the fact that the result of impact makes no sense."
• "For example, if a character launches a 200kg metal ball against a common wall at Mach 300, but the wall remains largely undamaged, the energy required to cause the minor damage on the wall would take priority over the kinetic energy derived from speed in this case."

All of the above quotes are from DontTalkDT on that thread concerning Kinetic Energy standards.

What This Means
Basically, Bloodborne's 8-A comes from relatively small objects (weapons about the sizes of humans) being swung and leaving no obvious signs of impact outside of dust being kicked up and dents. So I believe these are illegitimate and it seems others do too (considering Ovens conned me into making this thread).

TL;DR all the 8-A Bloodborne profiles need downgraded to the old 8-C feat (Blacksky Eye meteor KE) they came from. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Sounds accurate to me, If the justification no longer fits our ruling we need to scale them to another feat, are there any other events we could scale to or is the blacksky eye meteor our best feat?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Since I was the one who asked you to make this thread, obviously I agree.

 

[DMUA]

Wait there was an actual 8-C calc

I only remember monsters being building sized

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Blacksky Eye was the 8-C calc, I can try to find it real quick. It was on Naruto Forums.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Sounds accurate to me, If the justification no longer fits our ruling we need to scale them to another feat, are there any other events we could scale to or is the blacksky eye meteor our best feat?

Blacksky Eye is the next highest feat outside of "this is a building sized monster".

 

[AshenCrow777]

What??? But all of this is purely game mechanics!

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

K then Id like to see the calc myself (Probably link it in the op when you find it) but it seems to be fine.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

What??? But all of this is purely game mechanics!

I agree, but the fact remains that this does indeed qualify as a not large object being used for KE, which decidedly doesn't work under new standards. The fact that it kicks up dust and makes dents but doesn't break anything just sorta cements the point.

If you wanna argue game mechanics then it's also game mechanics that the thing is even 8-A, as I said before. Glass houses and all that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

8-C Bloodborne scaled to the mid-end of this feat, for the record.

 

[AshenCrow777]

but the reasoning provided here is bad

Why are we are selectively picking when we want the Author's Intent to be important or not? It's either one or the other. There should be no middle ground.

If this method constantly generates unreliable results, then that should be the reason IMO. What we think the author intends means and has always meant jackshit to us without actual confirmation, why should it be different now?


The walls not blowing up in Bloodborn is pure game mechanics the game was not intended to shot at walls and watch building crumble plus the calcs comes from the hunter able to harm building size beasts that are able to casually rip steel.


I disagree with the downgrade.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Id be in agreement but do we have any instances of bloodborne characters tearing down walls in cutscenes, or great feats of strength outside the ke produced by their weapons? What cutscene evidence do we have, What points to them being 8A beyond the ke calc?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Who are you quoting with that first line

what

the hammer moving at the speed of lightning is also pure game mechanics

so either way it disregards some core bit of our system

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Seem fine

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Id be in agreement but do we have any instances of bloodborne characters tearing down walls in cutscenes, or great feats of strength outside the ke produced by their weapons? What cutscene evidence do we have, What points to them being 8A beyond the ke calc?

nothing outside of the 8-C calc (speaking with DMUA about this on Discord atm, he believes they should be 9-A using the low-end).

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Honestly if nothing else is kicking them to 8c outside a single calc, maybe they should be, shouldn't they be outliers? Or are there to few feats to make that asssumption?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

There are multiple feats that support 8-C, including two other calcs iirc

 

[AshenCrow777]

In game lore and the fact they are fighting building size monster on a regular basis should be enough.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems fine

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Can you link them then? If their are two other feats on the level 8c should be fine. Especially as there are building sized monsters running amok throughout the game.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

There are multiple feats that support 8-C, including two other calcs iirc

I'd be fine to see them but currently I see nothing wrong with scaling to Blacksky Eye. I'm fine with 8-C. Even if we don't have calcs big monsters even in early game should be at least 9-A in size which is enough support as far as I'm concerned.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, stats, world map crossing in seconds outside cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character/entity's actual abilities.

Example sonic can use is light speed attack but misses his target and hits a wall the wall suffers no damage despite the fact sonic light speed attack is literally a planet busting are we going to downgrade Sonic despite is enemies clearly being affected by it?


Of course unless the game was made for it it should not be a basis for a downgrade like this unless the game was designed to support massive environmental damage.

And bloodborn is not that kind of game.

 

[DMUA]

I can believe in 8-C with some calcs

The Blacksky Eye is kinda weak anyways, and it's so far up 9-A you could reasonably upscale more potent weapons to 8-C

 

[AshenCrow777]

I'd be fine to see them but currently I see nothing wrong with scaling to Blacksky Eye. I'm fine with 8-C. Even if we don't have calcs big monsters even in early game should be at least 9-A in size which is enough support as far as I'm concerned.

And guns in bloodborn can affect these bugs monsters so I'm confused how is this a downgrade when you can casually eyeball it and we can all agree early monsters are Cleary 9-A also guns in blood born scales with the player himself via bloodting since all ammunition are mixed with special blood that works in symbiosis with the hunter

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Ashen I'm not super clear on what your point is or why Sonic is being compared to?

It was decided, like I said, that not-superhumanly-large objects couldn't be used as KE unless there is reason to do so. Hence why a FromSoft game like, say, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice is fine in its Low 7-B rating, but this is illegitimate.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Ashen (Again) why are you trying to debunk my support for other feats in the game lol

what are you talking about

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ashen, chill, please

 

[AshenCrow777]

But I am calm?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

There really are no building sizes monsters, only small building ones. You could say Amygadala is building sized but she's 4-C.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Amygdala is 5-A.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

My point still stands.

 

[QrowBarr]

Downgrade seems good.

 

[Poiesis_Element]

I was actually planning on doing this sort of downgrade at some point, though it would have been for different reasons (not to say that I disagree with this), namely that I don't think that Bloodborne's bottom tiers are MHS. Basically, with the way the tiers are set up, there are no feats in areas below 7-C areas that display speed feats comparable to later tiers. The only feats that are present are being able to dodge point-black cannon and flintlock fire, the projectiles themselves being visibly comparable to the Hunter in terms of speed. As such, I would personally say bottom tiers should also be downgraded to "At least Transonic" or something like that.

On the subject of speed, there was also this thread and this calculation of mine, both of which were generally accepted, that would put all of the 4-C tiers into MHS+.

There's also a calculation that I've been working with results that put the bottom tiers into 8-C or High 8-C, but I just haven't had the time or energy to properly finish writing it off. I'll try and see if I can finish it off ASAP, but I can't make any promises.

Lastly, as a side note, when making the changes, could someone shift the link for the 8-A calculation to lifting strength as that page is where the main value for Class 25+ comes from.

 

[DMUA]

Even the black sky meteors are High Hypersonic

And he doesn't really increase in speed throughout the game, everyone is capable of dodging and moving around lightning

 

[Poiesis_Element]

If your argument is that bottom tiers should be MHS because the Blacksky Eye is an 8-C weapon and, thus, would scale to bottom tiers, I don't exactly agree. The Blacksky Eye can only be found after going through the Hunter's Nightmare, a 7-C/5-A place. And you only first encounter an Eye user, a non-entity themselves, right after fighting Ludwig, a 7-C boss. Furthermore, like I said, there are no feats involving meteors or lightning for bottom tier areas or characters.

Based on what? And where are you getting the idea that everyone is able to do this? I cannot remember a single instance of meteors or lightning or even just electric attacks being present in any bottom tier areas at all. I feel like you might have to expand upon that, because simply saying everyone can do it doesn't really tell me much. Also, as already pointed out, the linked thread and my calc would suggest that the 4-Cs are faster than lower tiers, so why can't the bottom tiers be slower than everyone else in a significant capacity.

 

[DMUA]

Speed never changes throughout the game

A level 1 hunter dodges, ducks and weaves with the same speed as a level 100

No matter where you are in the game, you can still move at fast enough to evade

Now as per the legitimacy of the lighting (Since I remember it being from the Tiny Tonitrus, or something like that), you could easily call that into question

 

[Poiesis_Element]

That's just game mechanics; a level 1 Hunter can also kill the Moon Presence if the player is good enough.

It actually comes from the Lightning Mages from the Fishing Hamlet, which was more-or-less agreed to be Cloud-to-Ground lightning here, here and here . Orphan of Kos can also summon CtG lightning.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The lightning was agreed to be legitimate as its actually cloud to ground lughtning, not from the tonitrus

 

[DMUA]

mixed things up then

Still, there's a difference between chipping away at a target constantly despite being vastly overleveled, and simple movement that stays constant throughout the game

 

[Poiesis_Element]

If you're arguing that in-game speed never changes as a case for actual speed never changing (i.e. a dodge will always take the same amount of frames to complete at the start of the game as it does at the end), then that's still just a gameplay mechanics thing. And as I've already mentioned, this calc and this thread make it clear that the 4-C characters are faster than prior tiers.