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Cairne Bloodhoof vs Grommash Hellscream (3/3/0)
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Peppersalt43
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Peppersalt43
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Bump...
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Cairne FRA
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Bump
Udlmaster
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I didn't see this was actually around.
Answer: Baine beats the shit out of Grommash.
Baine was beating Garrosh their entire match until Garrosh got off a single blow on Cairne which was poisoned (though he didn't know) and Cairne eventually went down. This is without Cairne being allowed to use Shamanism either.
This fight is basically what happened in the Mak'Gora except Cairne stomps him the **** out.
Answer: Baine beats the shit out of Grommash.
Baine was beating Garrosh their entire match until Garrosh got off a single blow on Cairne which was poisoned (though he didn't know) and Cairne eventually went down. This is without Cairne being allowed to use Shamanism either.
This fight is basically what happened in the Mak'Gora except Cairne stomps him the **** out.
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You imply Garrosh and Grommash have the same scaling lol
They uh, they don't. Mannoroth outscales Garrosh by a stomp.
Udlmaster
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He doesn't scale to Mannoroth, in that scene he specifically had to use the Mecha-Goblin tech to do a ton of damage to him and then got a sneak attack to his head, this isn't like in WC3 where Grommash was strong enough to break through his weapon block, his armour and then hit him in the chest.
The energy contained within Mannoroth literally kills a stronger version of him in the main Timeline and would have killed him in the Alternate if Garrosh hadn't pushed him outta the way.
So no, he doesn't scale to Mannoroth as if he "one shot him" especially given the fact that his Main Timeline self, a much stronger version, needed MORE fel blood to fight him and the other enemies of the Old Horde. (It should also be noted that Jaina only released Grommash from the Blood curse placed on him by using too much Demon blood, it didn't depower him)
The idea that base Grommash is comparable to Mannoroth is a huge outlier at the absolute best and just misleading at worst.
The best scaling for Grommash (In base) is bullying and beating Garrosh in the alternate Timeline, but thing was, Garrosh wasn't fighting back then and was just taking it because he wanted to please his dad, arguably, this is comparable, if inferior to Cairne absolutely ******* bodying Garrosh in a 1v1 fight to the Death until Garrosh got a single hit off to win the fight. There's a reason why the most famous image of Cairne is that fight where Garrosh is bloody and bleeding while Cairne has a single cut.
Also, Thrall and Cairne FOUGHT Fel Orc Grommash in WC3, they subdue him and put him in a Soul gem to get him to Jaina who then cleansed him.
I am 100% confident that if Thrall and Cairne can beat Fel Orc Gromm, then Cairne can absolutely wipe the floor with base form Gromm
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why on God's green earth are you assuming we're using Alternate Grom here??? Alternate Grom literally did minor shit to Archimonde and has at most 5-B for it! you cannot cross-scale the WoD versions to the main timeline versions, if you do, you're ignoring the fact that shit like Alternate Blackhand Stomped Alternate Orgrim when the ladder had help whereas in the main timeline they're more or less comparable.
Self-destruction from a guy who boxed Cenarius albeit with amps killing Grommash? Oh wow! I'm not surprised at all! It's only a 7-A eating a full-throttle Aspect-level attack at minimum!
Grommash didn't look red-skinned to me in that cinematic Udl, we've seen very well what drinking more fel blood does to orcs, and we even saw that in reforged, so yes, they would've depowered Grom before he fought Mannoroth.
Kargath Bladefist
Kargath Bladefist was the Warchief of the Fel Horde and Chieftain and founder of the Shattered Hand clan. He earned the sobriquet "Bladefist" after he cut off his left hand to escape ogre captivity, replacing it with a deadly scythe called the The Bladefist, and becoming the Chieftain of the...
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Mannoroth literally has more shit going AGAINST him being Aspect-tier then he does for it Udl, I've literally argued this with a guy more knowledgeable then both you and me combined. And won.
And a big part of that is the fact that Grommash couldn't **** with Cenarius in base.
Once again, using Alternate Timeline versions to try and scale the main timeline versions. Don't do that.
Cairne and Thrall had an entire ass army at their back, Maiev and Kael'thas together, people with better scaling then WC3 Thrall, Cairne, AND Fel Grom, was getting overwhelmed by a big ass army of undead.
Numbers mean a lot for scaling Warcraft Udl, there are examples of this multiple times, even in WC3 itself.
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I'd like to point out that Grom also had that in addition to the support given by the burning legion by slamming inferno golems right at their doorsteps
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Don't you mean just the infernals?
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Infernals that didn't stop knocking even after razing Grom's base to the ground, yes.
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Aka, not a problem lmfao
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They'd still stomp out your bases including Jaina's collectively.
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Yeah, and the whole ****** point of the mission is to **** up Grom BEFORE that happens lol
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Narratively speaking, both forces clash while Thrall fights Grom in the cutscene shown where cairne and both forces are not present.
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Narratively speaking, we don't have a book to guide us, so narratively speaking, that's a bigger assumption
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You made the biggest assumption by saying Grom was all alone in the entire battle.
Udlmaster
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Because Alternate Universe Grommash up until Garrosh appeared literally is the exact same Gromm from the Main Timeline.
He didn't do any damage to Archimonde, that's the whole point. He got absolutely destroyed by Archimonde and people weaker than him. Hell, he needed the Player's help to break out of some random Fel Lord let alone Archimonde.
Also, characters harming beings way above their level is just a thing that happens in WoW;
Grommash harming Mannoroth
Saurfang harming Sylvanas
Tiron shattering Frostmourne
Khadgar being able to run Medivh through with a sword
Lothar being able to decapitate Medivh(???????)
Broxx hurting Sargeras because enchanted Axe (??????) lets him do that despite being enchanted by a God far beneath Sargeras
You get the point. What I'm trying to say is that nicking someone with a paper cut just happens all the time. We shouldn't consider them to be qualifying statements/feats.
That's the point. You shouldn't bring up Mannoroth because if you argue Grommash scales to Mannoroth then his tier changes and he's not eligible for the fight. If you don't, then Grommash has few feats to go off.
The Red-Skin is literally a curse from drinking too much Demon blood, it's not an indication of power or of the amount of Fel magic inside a person, hence why Gul'dan wasn't a Fel Orc despite being drenched in Fel magic by a much more powerful source than a Pit Lord, neither is every Fel Orc is capable of taking on Cenarius either.
So bringing up whether or not he has Red skin is irrelevant to the discussion.
We're literally told that he had the Blood curse removed from him, which was mind controlling him. We're never told that removing the blood curse weakened him in some way.
Likewise, Mannoroth and the Pit Lords aren't even in the 7-A bracket, they're in the 5-B bracket, given some random fodder Pit Lord literally blew up a planet and they're above fodder eredar who can blow up planets and yada yada yada, so your arguing that Gromm in anyway scales to Mannoroth is completely pointless.
Yeah, she removes the curse so he's not mind controlled by Mannoroth. Nowhere does it say he's weaker for it.
Wowpedia even says;
I don't care if you argued with God himself, you're arguing with me now.
So what. This is base Grom.
So did Grom. This point is mute because of the fact that Cairne and Thrall literally fight through Groms forces to get to him in the campaign.
This isn't like them being Generals in an army, they're on the battlefield and they fight him and his Demon bodyguards.
The Alternate Timeline Grom IS Grom, just after the divergence some things changed, I have no problems with having some of the feats of base Pre-Fel boosted Grom being used.
Especially since we can just explain most of them.
Yeah, because the Army of the Scourge would overwhelm them with pure numbers, and where pure numbers didn't work the Cult of the Damned would worm their way into their respective cities and drop their defences and covert people to their cause.
Like, what's the argument here? And it's really weird to bring up Kael'thas as if Kael'thas isn't a God-tier Blood elf able to hold off Arthas 1v1 for a short while.
This doesn't even mean anything.
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I agree with this.
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Well clearly there are major differences in scaling Udl, that's my point.
Some Fel Lord after Gul'dan had beat his ass in and helped restrain him. Also, demons being anywhere near the level of the Eredar twins isn't too rare.
I'm gonna have fun with this.
Discussed in-depth, Mannoroth's higher scaling is either hype statements that get trashed or Cenarius which... well he did that with amps.
Saurfang's scaling is fucky at best, Part of the reason I haven't made him yet.
With Ashbringer and a big ass amp??? Neither of which scale to physicals BTW, so this is a literal nothing one for your argument. Arthas even consistently treats Holy Ashbringer as a threat lmfao
Magic Caster glass cannon. Big surprise.
See above.
Yet that axe just doesn't have anti-feats, its either tier 1 dura neg(which, I mean, the Emerald Dream has tier 1 shenanigans going on with it...) or is just a tier 1 axe.
Or maybe your view of scaling has issues going on with it.
And I've already discussed Mannoroth's scaling in-depth with someone a lot more lore-savvy then either of us on Discord, and yes, Grommash is the problem here, when Mannoroth has fuckall outside of magic and amps, One-shotting Thrall becomes his best feat.
If it's a curse then why, pray tell, did Jaina purify it back to being green instead of brown? Hmmmm, almost like we're dealing with a Power down too...
Okay, let me play your game Udl, if Grommash was still full power from when he beat Cenarius, that STILL invalidates Mannoroth from being in the bracket you place him in! Cause a guy who fought Cenarius one-shot his ass.
There are all of 2 known Pit Lords that were even maybe planet level. Magtheridon who somewhat fought Illidan, and Mongrethod, who carries the grand ol' issue of "he destroyed this planet! We dont know how long that took but he did!"
Really, Mannoroth is the Pit Lord with the most action and he has the most ass feats, fighting Cenarius with an Amp is ******* hilarious, considering where I'm gonna be putting him much to my shagrin!
Cause pal? Cenarius is going to be ******* planet level once I make a CRT!
And yet what caused it was the consumption of an amping substance. Hmmmm....
See all above.
In-game, which is all we have to go on, Grom doesn't aggro with his guards. Sooooooo...
This isn't Dragon Ball, and Alternate Grommash put his axe into the skull of Mannoroth and one-shot him, that kills your argument for tier 6-5 Mannoroth if you do decide to use it.
And that's what makes it more egregious Udl, neither Kael nor Maiev are in aaaaanyway pushovers yet they were getting ****** by sheer numbers, same shit, different toilet here.
It means quite a lot when both characters involved kick Grom's shit in in scaling.
Either way, walls of text or no walls of text, I'm not gonna debate for another 100+ posts over a character who I've literally debated every ******* detail of before. Mannoroth's ass has anti-feats, and trying to say shit like "people harm those much stronger than them all the time!" Is only going to show that I'm glad I stayed in this rabbit hole when you got out, because Jesus christ, that's not how we scale on the wiki.
If you want a fight out of me, make a CRT, until then, I'm stepping away from writing religious texts about Mannoroth and Grommash.
Udlmaster
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Not really. And like I said, any inconsistencies can be explained.
And? Said Fel Lord is featless and never shows up again. I wouldn’t place him anywhere but on a basic level for Fel Lords.
You haven’t made any points just vaguely gesturing that it’s totally debunked but never actually giving any examples.
It’s not fucky, it’s emblematic of an issue with Blizzard’s writing. Not only is Sylvanas so much more above Saurfang in that fight but she should be so far above him as to be able to break his weapon on contact with her eye.
The Ashbringer was a threat, yes. However, it was never potent against weapons, never had any feats to that effect and certainly wasn’t ever as powerful as Frostmourne.
The Ashbringer’s only power was to turn Undead to Ash with a single swing and that it could be corrupted by Kel’Thuzad pretty easily.
It is vastly inconsistent with the Ashbringer’s power to argue that on Unhallowed Ground, at the Heart of Darkness and sealed within Ice that it could do what the Ashbringer couldn’t on Hallowed ground that was so sanctified that it killed Mograine is Legion and was severely weakening all the Death Knights in Wrath, all that, on his side wasn’t enough to break Frostmourne and was only enough to hurt the Lich King.
The Light’s infusing of Tirion in that moment just never made sense and was emblematic of stronger beings being hurt by opponents who SHOULD be their inferiors
Sorry, what was that? You literally have there a Magic caster at 7-A durability despite them being a cripple based on their magic.
And you are then arguing that Khadgar has well above 7-A striking strength, above his power along side Anduin Lothar, and that they could do this while Sargeras was taking control too.
If you argue that. Incredible. But wrong.
You would have to argue that Wild Gods possess Low 2-C power and that they can bestow that to weapons to be able to harm Sargeras.
I don’t take that absurd view at all, and don’t take the scene to be anything.
It doesn’t need “anti-feats” if it’s existence leads to an absurdity. I take the Mischief rule on this and it was purely meant to be a “rule of cool” scene and wasn’t meant to be taken seriously.
Blizzard themselves have said they don’t care if it makes sense and will write things based on if it’s cool or not.
Nah I’m always right.
I literally don’t care. I don’t care that you’re appealing to some alien authority and I don’t care if the authority you’re appealing to is Christie Golden or Chris Metzen.
You’re arguing with me not them, you’re arguing with me.
… what you’re arguing helps me? Yeah, if his skin did go back to Brown, it would have meant he lost all his Fel amp, but it didn’t.
Because the curse was separate from the Fel infusion.
And yes, curses affect you physically.
Mark of Kathra'natir literally changed Valeera’s skin pale and her eyes to glow green, but she didn’t get any stronger.
and that’s off the top of my head.
Are you now going to argue that skin tone indicates power?
Yeah? And? You can get sick from drinking water, doesn’t mean that water makes you sick.
None of what have said has justified this tangent you’re going on with bringing up Manoroth.
Yes, they do:
3:33:30
No? It doesn’t.
I’ve already addressed this argument, read what I’ve said previously.
What the hell are you even talking about?
Then don’t respond. You are not forced to reply to me. I’ve given my reasons and addressed your tangential argument.
This brings up a fantastic point about scaler brain rot, because regardless of anything else, it always strips down anything it touches, stripped of intent and reasoning behind it, which is why people with scaler brain rot can’t write their way out of a paper bag and why media literacy remains antithetical to scaling.
I genuinely don’t care if you respond or not.
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"He was amped during his single actual feat"
"That's not an argument"
What???
TBF, Shalamayne was used to one-shot a Fel Reaver, so it ain't exactly low on the list when we're talking weapons, and Saurfang had previously heavily injured Malfy, but at the same time, he was fairly threatened by Muradin(albeit Mura had a patrol with him) and he got bodied during the Siege of Orgrimmar(or was that Eitrigg?)
World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 3, pg. 174 Udl, Arthas saw the Ashbringer as a threat, in Light of Dawn when Tirion when he got the Ashbringer literally clashed directly with Arthas and threw him back. And then of course the Absorption and containing of energy in Sargeras' sword.
Ashbringer Being 5-B is shockingly consistent, especially seeing as it just doesn't have anti-feats. Amping to shatter Frostmourne is just gravy.
"Light... grant me one final blessing... give me the strength... to shatter these bonds...!" Is indicative of an Amp occurring to me.
Show me one feat of Medivh having above fodder 7-A durability physically.
For the same reason Gul'dan is put as fodder physically but actually competent with Magic and summons, Medivh is the same way.
Shit, if we were close enough to 7-B, I'd argue that the average caster physically just downscales to 7-B, with very specific exceptions in durability like BFA Jaina.
Udlmaster
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What are you even on about?
I'm arguing Cairne beats Gromm, I have no idea why you're arbitrarily arguing against Gromm with me.
Add that one to the list.
It was a sneak attack after Malfurian had been fighting with Sylvanas through the forest. Not exactly like Malfurian was fighting Saurfang and Saurfang was able to beat him/mortally wound him.
Can you actually read what I say and address that and not the argument the version of me in your head has made up.
I don't disagree that it should be 5-B, or have some sort of 5-B dura neg.
Nah.
Can YOU show me anything that indicates that Khadgar has at least 7-A Striking Strength?
Also for his durability being above 7-A, yeah. Considering fragments of his power don't die to a sneeze from the Hero of Azeroth.
The Shade of Medivh is one we can actively fight in Legion (so we'd have Ashbringer, Twin Mourns, etc.), said Shade of Medivh is just a small portion of his power:
"So great was the power of the Last Guardian, Medivh, that his magic still echoes through the halls of Karazhan. Some of these echoes take the shape of visions, revealing past events to the tower's guests. Others assume more malevolent forms, recalling a time when the Guardian's will was not his own."
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Mannoroth has fought an Aspect-tier once, and he was amped for it.
But, even assuming he wasn't amped, he was one-shot by Grommash, no matter if this was base(which I believe it was) or Fel Orc, Mannoroth is automatically disqualified from 5-B scaling physically because Grom didn't one-shot Cenarius either.
Next time on World of Warcraft Z! Wait, this isn't Dragon ball! Durability isn't lowered because of being sneak attacked or off-guard!
Then can you please tell me what's wrong with an Amped Tirion using Ashbringer to break Frostmourne? That's not base Ashbringer and Tirion, Arthas literally ice cubed both as soon as their fight started, a stark contrast from what happened at Light's Hope
One-shotting a mage isn't worth At least in current scaling.
no. No. NO. NO.
I've literally disallowed using adventurers to scale shit outside of things in the same instance, and even then, Deathwing was scared of Medivh's power/magic, so a fraction of it sure as shit isn't him physically, it's his magic, which is uh, not fodder 7-A. At all.
Udlmaster
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What is Cenarius is just above Mannoroth? Considering Mannoroth has fought Cenarius in the past and has the advantage of Fel on his side and still Cenarius didn't die.
FYM, this happens in real life. If I sucker punch you, it's gonna hurt a whole lot more than if we were fighting and I punched you. Why do you think we have such a social taboo against sucker punching people?
Because Tirion's amp shouldn't have been able to do that. Why do you think the end of Wrath and Tirion's literal Deus Ex Machina is so contentious?
Ofc Tirion's attack shouldn't have been able to destroy Frostmourne. Not only has it never been able to destroy a weapon, like how Frostmourne shatters weapons on the regular, but he was in the Heart of Darkness, in the Seat of the Lich King's power, not at Light's Hope with the Light being so potent it was physically hurting the Death Knights to be there?
You're asking why I think it's wrong?
I don't mean "At least 7-A", I mean "can you at least show 7-A striking strength"
Pfft, don't care.
Yuhuh.
So you think his Magic is stronger than the body which contained it without exploding + being empowered by Sargeras' soul (since we know that's a fact as shown with Varian and others literally explode when given too much magical energy)
Peppersalt43
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Anyway, bump
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Grom couldn't do shit to Cenarius in base, he struggled a bit with more demon blood.
So yes, Cenarius is above Mannoroth no matter how you slice it because Grom has one-shot Mannoroth on 2 seperate occasions with very little reason to scale elsewhere, and even using one of your earlier cards against you, this was base pre-Fel Blood Grom that put Gorehowl into Mannoroth's skull.
With as much against Mannoroth as there is, and counting the fact he's got good amps and magic and was canonically using them for the Cenarius fight, he's in Cenarius' weight class with Magic and amps.
And notice how I haven't brought up the Azhara interaction, because she's in a fucky weight class of her own.
Oh so you know muscle structures eh? Do tell me what muscles are in Mannoroth's flaming head thing that's actually cool!
Because Tirion was AMPED. This is not base Tirion or Ashbringer, this is an Amp specifically meant to both break out of being frozen in a block of Ice by Arthas and to end the fight with Arthas when all hope seemed to be lost.
Listen, the light has done way more ****** up shit than making Tirion able to shatter Frostmourne with Ashbringer. Shadowlands Opening.
Yeah, the Medivh feat. And yes, I know you don't like that, but Udl, we're trying to get things down to be consistent, not make "OH people punch out of their weight class all the time!" excuses to wank or downplay things. You can do it with WoD or whatever verses you're all but the knowledgeable in, but bluntly put, you're not the sole knowledgeable in Warcraft, and I'm trying to scale this verse without trying to wank or downplay characters for whatever reasons.
Do I not like, say, OU Gul'dan? Yeah, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to give him credit where it's due.
You do realize with bringing up Sargeras' possession as some kind of durability feat, you're trying to make Medivh's durability tier 1 right? You will do that when I am pushing up my tombstone, and not before, got that?
Even outside of that, both instances of explosions happened with pure Fel from folks who have very easy arguments for having 5-B Fel capabilities, one more then the other, even counting the fact there was a big ****** fight yes, but it's still FEL. The shit's volatile.
Udlmaster
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Clearly without understanding the argument behind it.
There's not much to say, I already gave my argument addressing why base Gromm doesn't scale to Mannoroth.
Personally, I don't see it, nothing presented so far is persuasive.
I just think Mannoroth is relative to him and, as loathe as I am to use the Chronicles given the fact Blizzard doesn't care to ever reference them and will just make new shit up on demand, the Chronicles says they've clashed before, with a picture of the fight happening, and given neither died. It took a young Illidian + a small army of Night Elves (+ the Cataclysm Heroes of Azeroth) distracting Mannoroth so Malfurian could use the collective power of Nature itself to blow him into the Well of Eternity.
Yeah, and like every other non-scaler brain rot addled player, it was bullshit.
You just keep saying the same things as if I haven't watched that scene a thousand times before, didn't get the mount and didn't already address it in my argument before.
Sorry, I've never heard of this event, Warcraft mysteriously disappeared after Legion.
"Can you justify this as to not be an outlier."
"Heh, yeah. The thing I'm supposed to justify."
No, sadly. That's not how persuasive arguing works, nor is that how anything works.
You can't present an argument who's conclusion is also its reason to exist, circular logic and all that.
That's the exact opposite of consistency lmao.
The sheer double speak there
Which is it, because I can't do things which are the exact opposite of each other.
Here's your golden star. A for effort.
Your intents and the outcomes don't align.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Avatar of Sargeras' durability would scale to Aegwynn's magic, since it took several blows from her, which would put that durability in the Planet level ranges.
Thanks for arguing in my favour?
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And your argument is that solid bone magically becomes weaker after a light flaming to the underbelly and looking the attacking individual right in the face. Mannoroth knew he was in combat, and he was pissed at Grom specifically, your excuse as to why things happened the way they did doesn't check out
gives obvious anti-feat
"That's not persuasive"
???
When your guy has one feat in base, was amping himself for his actual showstopper feats, and is canonically actually competent with Magic, Mannoroth is kind of "At least 7-A physically, 6-A(5-B after revisions) with amps and magic" in my eyes, I'm not saying Mannoroth isn't impressive, I'm saying he's not as impressive as you make him out to be WITHOUT amps.
Just because you consider it bullshit doesn't make it any less true. I personally think it was an awesome moment, and it's brainrot that you start going digging for ways for it to "not count".
Yes, I power scale, but I know I don't have the brainrot when I finish a game, and only then am I like "huh, I could powerscale this!"
It kind of is when you're trying to say that the light amping a guy to be able to break a 5-B weapon with his own 5-B weapon is bullshit when the light has canonically done WAY more bullshit things
Anduin stalled The Jailer's force with the Light for a bit.
The Light does whatever the **** it wants with it's amps.
All of this, ya see, ALL of this!
Doesn't matter. Because no matter if it was the avatar which ATT did have Sargeras in it or the real guy possessing, tier 1 thing in body source=tier 1 durability by YOUR LOGIC!
You cant go "this is how it works, except" and expect me to not jump at that shit like a frenzied Piranha. Either Aegwynn has tier 1 magic and Medivh has tier 1 durability, or or ya don't scale magic to durability without good reason like what Jaina has.
F E L.
not
A R C A N E.
Contrary to what seems to be your belief, all magic is not created equal and cannot be used to equal effects by different people.
Udlmaster
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Are you really going to go for physics and biology of a Pit Fiend as an argument?
I didn't say he wasn't in combat.
Once again go back and read what I say and not what the version of me you made up in your said says. I am not responsible for that version in your head, sweatie.
FYM anti-feat???
Malfurian channelling the combined power of Nature, the sum total of the power of Kalimdor, and the Dragon soul boosting it, that's an anti-feat?
So not worth much then.
It's hilarious you defend that moment given the dislike people have for specifically that part, as well as Blizzard's overall very vocal reasoning for it and other things not actually being anything but the "Rule of Cool"
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
That is a gross oversimplification of that scene to make it seem like Anduin did anything but stop an energy wall with a shield of light before the Jailor immediately breaks it with contemptuous ease.
And even if I did take that view that it meant anything and the Jailor wasn't at his ease, it would just be ANOTHER example of Rule of Cool writing and not any actual reasoning.
1. I don't think he's tier 1, I think that's absurd wank.
2. Some arbitrary % of his power with no further scaling will simply be whatever feats it showed, which is around Aegwynn's level.
3. That's not my logic at all, because you clearly can't follow my basic argument without addressing things I've never spoken about.
Or;
Sargeras isn't Tier 1
The Avatar doesn't scale in any way to actual Sargeras
Aegwynn is tier 5-B
Medivh's durability is exactly what his body can contain (5-B)
Like, it's so weird you scale the Avatar of Sargeras to Tier 1 for no reason when we're directly shown Aegwynn was able to defeat it, giving it a tangible anti-feat above and beyond the vagaries you've presented thus far, but you wouldn't give Gromm the very basic scaling of "Above Garrosh via his Alt. Self beating him up."
You mean like what her teacher would have?
Like say Aegwynn?
Like what Medivh would have as all her knowledge and power is passed onto him and as the most accomplished Magus to ever exist.
Like that?
Wtf do you think Sargeras' soul would be full off? Cardboard?
Do you even read the series you pretend to lord over?
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To use your own words
"Once again go back and read what I say and not what the version of me you made up in your said says. I am not responsible for that version in your head, sweatie."
Or, to say it bluntly, I'm not going to scale a character to their amps, Mannoroth had amps up for War of the Ancients,
I'm not denying he's competent, he could solo the vast majority of the 7-As for God's sake, he's no weakling, especially since we any moment he could jump tiers and whittle down the 7-As that could actually beat him to the ones who have ****** up things like Broxigar, Ashara, Tirion, DK Arthas, etc.
Udl, mate, I could come up with excuses to not make Garrosh lose to Cairne in first key currently, such as he'd juet gotten Gorehowl so his skill was shot, he's done a lot more fighting since his Cairne fight, etc etc, but that doesn't change the fact that Cairne probably still beats Garrosh's ass.
No matter what excuse you come up with, the facts are that we dont scale based on what we like and dont like in terms of feats, I D E S P I S E 5-B aspect-tiers, but with how many feats of that general level there are, I'm not going to contest it. To be Blunt, the only reason I made Grom is because he's kind of one of the essential characters to have running around as a profile. Cause I don't really care about either Grom or Mannoroth. I'm kind a WoW kid who got into the Warcraft and Book side of things second, but I don't deny that Grom is a good character and Mannoroth is a good antagonist when NOT in the presence of Grommash.
Stopping it at all is more of a feat then anything else mate.
Aka "I DONT THE FEAT SO IT'S RULE OF COOL!!!!" If something happens canonically, we shouldn't dismiss it cause we don't like it. If I had my way BFA and Shadowlands would be off the map and we'd run into Dragonflight, then a rewritten Shadowlands(cool concept on paper, ass execution in practice), and then the Worldsoul Saga. Whatever that is.
But I can't just say those two expansions didn't happen because I heavily dislike big parts of them, that's not how it works.
TBH Shadowlands is such a ****** up place that basically anybody who hits anything there is magically tier 1 so it's just a seperate key. But I brought up Anduin as my example for the Light doing what it wants.
No Udl, I do not scale Avatar to tier 1, I scale it to 5-B.
YOU scale it to tier 1 or 2 or 3 because it has some of Sargeras' power.
YOU scale Medivh's durability to tier 1 or 2 or 3 because he housed Sargeras' soul.
YOU said that Magic casters(fel or not) must scale to their magic in durability to keep it in.
What I've done is take your example, applied it to Medivh who you brought up, and now you don't like it. You're creating more inconsistencies then you're solving Udl.
As for tier 1, say "thank you Shadowlands!" For me. And I thank Archimonde(the discord user) for taking the time to gather the RIDICULOUS amounts of evidence for such. And I take that right the **** back because he's the one who did the legwork for showing my stubborn ass that 5-B aspect-tier is inevitable.
Trust me, I prefer tier 3 Sargeras. But preference doesn't have much of a card to play when trying to powerscale.
I try to make sense of the madness of Warcraft scaling, you swim in the stuff and make excuses along the way.
Can you stop debating like Earl? I know his way is most effective, and I know you're serious on the Mannoroth stuff, but are you serious about Medivh? He's got two anti-feats to being anything but fodder 7-A in durability. I think that takes precedence over what you're pushing for.
Udlmaster
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You're literally using "but muh physics and biology doesn't make sense, after muh guy was exploded on and sneak attacked, explain that libs."
But I already answered this so I'm not going to repeat myself for the 4th time.
What amps did he have during the War of the Ancients. This is his first appearance chronologically and he has no statements about being empowered by anyone or anything or being stronger than normal since this was the first time he ever showed up.
Garrosh had an axe before then, Garrosh swapping to Gorehowl isn't going to be some insane downgrade to his skill and power, it arguably made him stronger for a multitude of reasons.
Yeah, you can come up with excuses. Bad ones. Don't waste my time.
You keep framing it as "what I don't like and what I like" to try and poison the well and I don't care for it.
If you're continually going to try and play some underhanded word games, I don't care for it, I'll just ignore arguments in future which have it.
Point is, my argument on why I think the Ashbringer's power boost is arbitrary is expounded upon multiple times by me, similar to your "bone" argument about Mannoroth, but instead of appealing to biology and physics, I'm using evidence from the story, inside the story and examples of where they should have gotten stronger boosts but didn't due to the very location they were on, etc. etc. etc.
No. It's not. Given the energy has no clear defining characteristics other than "chains up Baine, Jaina and Thrall" and the barrier is immediately broken by the Jailer's most casual gesture.
Poisoning the well again.
No. It's not a case of I don't like the feat, an example of where I like the feat but still think its an outlier is Pre-Teldrassil Sylvanas fighting Malfurian in his home turf and having any success.
Sylvanas is my favourite character and I like the example in question but I still think it's a huge outlier for her powers until after Teldrassil falls and the Jailor boosts her power given she hasn't really done anything to empower the Jailor or herself yet.
No. I said;
Your inability to read isn't my problem.
I scale Sargeras to Low 2-C.
I have the Avatar at 5-B, because regardless of "having some of Sargeras' power" he doesn't scale to Sargeras nor does he scale to any of the Titans and was summarily defeated by a 5-B being.
If you had it your way, she'd be Tier 1 because the feat itself is enough for you, you'd use circular logic to say that she is Tier 1 because we've never seen Aegwynn use her full powers on anyone who isn't the Avatar of Sargeras or another Guardian (her son).
No.
No.
Yes.
Considering people explode from having too much magic in their body when they can't control it, there body MUST contain the pressure of having that inside them.
As Dave Kosak said, in terms of Magic, energy is water and Mana is steam.
Furthermore, it's why Elementals of any magic retain solid form and don't die to a gust of breeze, because magic itself sustains the body. It's why exposure to magic changes your biology, regardless of the magic type.
If you're over exposed to the Light, you become Lightsworn or any variation thereof. Too much Void and you become Void-infused. Too much Arcane and you become a Mana-addict. Too much Fel and you become Demonic, etc. etc. etc.
So we finally learn the name of the weird authority you keep appealing to.
Amazing. I don't care. Either provide the argument or don't comment on it, you're just wasting time.
Who the **** is Earl? I argue my way, not like any random and I've always argued like this since 2018.
Empty platitude, stop wasting my time. Also, you're literally using Bambu's calc for 7-A, which uses the RPG as the crux of the argument and you then scale people to the Heroes of Azeroth who were at that level. The only thing you're doing in the madness is drowning.
I don't know what you don't understand about circular reasoning and why you shouldn't do it.
"Prove this scene is consistent."
"Yeah, the scene."
"How do you know it's consistent?"
"Because the scene."
"Prove the scene is consistent."
[...]
Your argument is sustained entirely on circular logic because you KNOW you can't justify it any other way, because you know by all rights that Medivh shouldn't have been hurt by Khadgar wielding a sword as an old man for the first time.
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All right, gonna cut this off at the source because bluntly put, I'm sick and tired with arguing with you on things where the only thing you have a leg to stand on is the Mannoroth argument. And clearly neither of us are backing down from that, so agree to disagree.
But
You do not get to say gems like this
And pretend that the way you do things makes sense.
Read your own arguments, you might notice your own double standards, and realize we're both wasting time arguing about a very slowly dying franchise.
Either Medivh has Low 2-C durability to you because he housed Sargeras' soul, or he doesn't and magic doesn't scale to durability. There isnt a middle ground with what YOU have said for you to stand on. Hey Myriadofmemes, stop stonewalling on this. You literally introduced my counter-argument into this equation.
Also I literally counted your vote for Cairne like yesterday. We're wasting time here sitting there arguing about this lol
Two ONE-HANDED axes. Not a single two-handed axe. You don't become some kind of skill God with all weapons in that class just because you used one weapon in it. So yes, Garrosh was not exactly running at all cylinders when he fought Cairne, even different weapons have a different feel, let alone two different Classes of weapons that only have "axe" as their connecting point.
You gonna say Varian would do as well with a Katana as he would with Shala'mayne now?
Would Magni kick just as much ass if he was given only a Sledgehammer to fight with instead of dual one-handed hammers?
Please take this moment to remember that both Jaina and Thrall **** with Tier 1s in that expansion, and realize the powerscaling reason I hate Shadowlands so much.
It's also why nobody who does shit to fight in Shadow has a profile.
Udlmaster
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No, because a portion of Sargeras' soul wouldn't be Low 2-C.
No, because the strawman argument of mine you presented is just wrong in all ways.
Try again.
The Soul can be 5-B and Medivh can have 5-B durability.
No, you just have an inability to comprehend my argument even after I spelt it out to you.
Have you bothered to read the books in question?
You're just making shit up out of whole cloth and because I bother to research what I'm talking about, I can disprove your head canon.
How the **** would they be Tier 1 when the goal of the energy barrier was TO CHAIN THEM UP?
How are you genuinely this unknowledgeable about the most basic aspects of the arguments you're having?
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What is infinity divided by infinity Udl?
These apply to above.
Show me where I said Garrosh was UNSKILLED with Gorehowl ATT.
I said he was LESS skilled with it. This isn't the the Garrosh who boxed Varian, the fact he actually impressed Cairne at all says a lot about his skill before AND some time after the fight.
And I even said that I don't think Garrosh would beat Cairne at his base peak in a versus thread, cause Cairne still has superior stats and at the bare minimum comparable skill, with multiple VERY reasonable avenues to say he's superior.
Even if we downplay Cairne and wank Garrosh, Cairne wins at their base peaks.
Tell me when you have dozens of scans of tier 1 shit and multiple characters with their own reasons to scale to it.
There is a reason I have been putting off characters who have Shadowlands shit on them, it's because they SCALE and I kind of HAVE to put in a key for it.
This is the taste of my salt when it comes to dealing with Shadowlands, because I would have made multiple priority characters by now if it DIDN'T have scaling for say, Thrall, in it.
Udlmaster
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NaN
Regardless of that, the wiki doesn't take the view that an avatar's power by default is any % of the actual beings power.
Which is why Aka has avatars which are High 1-B despite being a High 1-A entity.
Which is why The Weaver has avatars of At least 4-A tier despite being a 0 entity.
Which is why Eternity has multiple manifestations and avatars, ranging up to Low 1-A for the Manifest Bodies, to 1-A with the Universal Avatar despite being a High 1-A entity.
Which is why Pennywise (IT) has avatars up to High 7-A despite being a 1-A being.
Need I go on? You are wrong.
Clearly not.
Implication here is that he isn't skilled with two-handed axes, especially by saying it was "shot".
Don't try and weasel out of this with some argument of "Oh, I didn't mean shot as in the meaning of shot, I just meant..." because it's obvious what you meant by it and now you're backtracking. Hard.
Ah yes, my favourite game, vaguely gesturing at things without saying what they are clearly in some cowardly to prevent peer review and scrutiny.
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I'm talking about Sargeras' soul in Medivh, not the Avatar. Don't know where you pulled that one from, if even a miniscule fraction of Sargeras' soul(never stated TMK) is in the Avatar or Medivh, by your own notes for Warcraft as a verse, that person must scale to that fragment in durability.
Me? I don't agree with that, I don't agree with Medivh magically just scaling to his magic or Sargeras' anything. I'm taking your argument and applying it to Medivh in the most literal sense with the information I have. This isn't a case of "but XYZ", this is a case of "this is where your argument fails because this inconsistency occurs", you're trying to debate against that inconsistency by bringing up different verses without this mechanic you've introduced this time around.
Udl, you're reading very far into things for a guy who tried to be Blunt, I think that going from briefly 1v1ing Varian bloody Wrynn of all people to not really being able to put up a fight against a guy with very few prior feats is a rather big difference, yes.
Yes, which is definitely why I like to have people check my profiles to make sure I'm not ******* up(in fact I do that with a lot of my WoW profiles on Discord), yet mostly don't have people to look over my shoulder because oftentimes I'm the sole active supporter of verses.
But that does not mean that I just follow and be a doormat. If I think something is right I'll argue for it.
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