Canonization of Blazblue: Cross Tag Battle

[Strife304]

Hello.

This is my first ever attempt at a content revision thread, and it's a pretty straight forward one that will serve as a precursor to some very ambitious revisions for the Blazblue verse as a whole.

Now, I understand that Cross Tag Battle's existence has been frowned upon for scaling on VSBW, and that crossovers are generally unwelcomed. So as a disclaimer, I'd like to start by saying I am not trying to scale the verses involved in this game to off of each other. I don't care for the argument of crossover feats nor whether the events of Cross Tag matter to the other involved series (ie. RWBY, Persona, UNIB) so avoiding such conversations after I present my case would be greatly appreciated.

What I am interested in, however, is the possibility of having Cross Tag Battle being acknowledged as a one-sided crossover on the site. The reason being is because it reveals valuable information for the series' lore, abilities, and generally allowed the original creators more freedom in how they expressed the Blazblue cast's variety of characters and their quirks.

Don't take my word for it, though. In the "Blazblue: Central Fiction Material Collection" there is an interview where Toshimichi Mori the creator and supervisor of Blazblue is asked in an interview regarding the series' future at the time, specifically regarding TAG's importance and where it stands in relation to the main series. This is what Mori had to say on the subject:

Q: From here on out, let's talk about the future of the BlazBlue series. First is BlazBlue: Cross Tag Battle (TAG), which is releasing May 31, 2018 (in Japan). What kind of position does this product hold?

Mori: TAG is a crossover with other products whose elements are included within the game itself, and is a sort of festival game; it has a standing as not simply one of BlazBlue series but also as a "what-if story". Even though there is the singleplayer "Episode Mode", it won't be a long story the way it is for the traditional BlazBlue series. However, other works' spinoffs sometimes bring up situations that make one feel like asking, "Why does a spinoff reveal such important information!?" I like that sort of situation (laughs). Therefore, it's possible that TAG might end up revealing important information (laughs).

BlazBlue: Central Fiction Official Setting Material Collection, Special Interview with Mori Toshimichi, pgs. (268 - 271).
​

Such a fun-loving guy. With this interview, I hope it's clear what my intentions are and what TAG's existence means for Blazblue. It is a spin-off, much like the others considered canon by the site, overseen and developed by Mori himselfーand just another "possibility" within the dream world we call "Blazblue".

The year of 2018 is long gone, and TAG has even had a second Episode with rollback netcode. Going off of his answer, he fully intended to put important information in this gameーand he did so largely using the primary antagonist, the "CROSS System" as an instrument for this purpose. So there isn't any reason to discount TAG's legitimacy as a part of Blazblue's greater story and universe.

What I mean to say is that regardless of if System could interact with other verses outside of Blazblue's, it could still effect Blazblue's universe in a significant manner. I reiterate: none of what is important for Blazblue scaling in Cross Tag Battle requires the existence of the other universes to accomplish them, or prove how extraordinary they are. Blazblue will not be scaling off of Persona. Other verses such as UNIB, RWBY, Senran Kagura, and Akatsuki Blitzkampf will most certainly not be scaling to either of those two verses.

All of what I plan on using is Blazblue centric, and will be predicated on the original verse itself. It will all be covered thoroughly in a later CRT if this is accepted by virtue of Mori's words. However, if an example of this "important information" is needed for some reason, then I can provide that.

Just to clarify on what I mean by a one-side crossover:

Onesided crossovers officially take place within one continuity, but not the other. Given that some characters may be parodies of their original counterparts, they could potentially get a separate profile scaling from the other verse based on their importance to the story.

One example is the version of Dante in Shin Megami Tensei, who is based on his Devil May Cry counterpart, with the same name and appearance, but a slightly altered story to fit in more with the Shin Megami Tensei verse. However, the character in question may not be used to scale to the Devil May Cry cast.

While I'm personally not interested in making any separate keys for the other verses, this is how the site officially recognizes cross overs like this. So I would like to have an open discussion on the matter.

Agree: @Milly_Rocking_Bandit , @TheKingStrategist13 , @Comicgyal , @Bobsican , @AxisPowerRanger , @Lonkitt , @Abu2411 , @WeeklyBattles , @NaruRiasUzumaki

Neutral: @MrHazama , @Shadow-Ragna (agree lean)

Disagree: @Everything12 @Nobody234 , @Theglassman12

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Looks good to me. I agree.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

Seems good.

 

[MrHazama]

Haven't seen much BlazBlue related subjects here besides one massive revision that has yet to appear

But as far as this is concerned, I thought BB Tag is just a spin-off, non-canon game that has no connection to the main canon of BlazBlue (or any of the other verses added)

But, I can be open to the "possibilities" and see this goes

So I'll remain neutral till than

Other than that, do you have other BB stuff to work with here if I may ask?

 

[Bobsican]

I also agree overall, even if there's no stated canonicity in relation to other works, this is still a work from the respective author to the respective verse, and so new lore from it may be usable accordingly.

Declining this would be like saying X game isn't canon to it's respective series just because it has crossover guests, which isn't the standard AFAIK.

I'd have to ask given that IDK about the verse, however. What-ifs are confirmed to be relevant in the cosmology as is or so? As this seems to assume it's an alternate timeline over something that didn't happen at all in the cosmological canon to begin with, if the answer to this is a no then I'd lean to disagree instead.

 

[Theglassman12]

Can I ask what exactly did Cross Tag reveal that’s considered important information? Because I don’t recall anything from the 2.0 story nor the base game that revealed anything new or important for mainline BB’s story or lore.

 

[Strife304]

What-ifs are confirmed to be relevant in the cosmology as is or so? As this seems to assume it's an alternate timeline over something that didn't happen at all in the cosmological canon to begin with, if the answer to this is a no then I'd lean to disagree instead.

Yes, Cross Tag would effectively fall under this category of spin-off. Excluding the other universes foreign to "Blazblue", it brings in leading characters and harkens back to all of the other timelines/worlds from the franchise; Blazblue, Bloodedge Experience, and Xblaze.

The story of Cross Tag itself takes place in a space known as a Phantom Field, which is a concept introduced in Xblaze: Lost Memories. So the basis of Cross Tag is already rooted in familiar territory, and expanded upon further in the latest installment of the franchise, "Blazblue: Alternative Dark War". Which uses Phantom Fields as an integral piece to drive its plotーwhere crossovers and what-if scenarios much like Cross Tag also occur.

 

[Theglassman12]

I wouldn’t use the phantom fields as a basis for it being canon to BlazBlue when Dark War has far more stuff that makes it canon, like White Justice and Juusan appearing in the game when they were referenced in CF.

 

[Strife304]

Other than that, do you have other BB stuff to work with here if I may ask?

Are you asking in relation to this thread or overall? Because aside from this, I have plans to revise the cosmology, hax, ap, speed, and so on.

But in reference to CTB, do you need anything specifically?

 

[MrHazama]

Are you asking in relation to this thread or overall? Because aside from this, I have plans to revise the cosmology, hax, ap, speed, and so on.

But in reference to CTB, do you need anything specifically?

Overall. I'm actually quite curious

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Following

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Following ig.

 

[Jimmy.robinson.5099]

This could be fun. Currently neutral, but leaning towards agree.

 

[Comicgyal]

Agree with OP FRA

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

What exactly is this "important information" that makes the spin-off relevant to the main series?

Also I wouldn't use SMT Dante since he is an smt character with little to no relation to the original Dante while the guys in CTB were, afaik, straight up pulled from their verses and dropped into BB

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

This is pretty interesting through the issue was the continuity issues that BlazBlue has in Cross Tag Battle.

The BlazBlue roster is current as of BlazBlue: Central Fiction; indicators include the presence of Es (who made her debut in said game), Noel's new uniform without the hat and Hazama lacking any Terumi-esque mannerisms. Which is good sense maybe this was sometme early Central Fiction...buuut. The story mode muddies things, as Ragna recognises Es, yet Platinum still houses Trinity's soul, making it unclear when exactly this game is supposed to be happening. Since in CF, is where Trinity was in Mucro Algesco: Yukianesa.

Susanoo's later inclusion continues to muddy things up, as Terumi only comes into possession of the Susanoo Unit after killing Hakumen, who is still alive and well in this game. Also not only that Hazama mentioned Susano'o in past term as if the events already happened and Hazama panicked seeing the 3% Susano'o that seemingly beaten rest of the characters until Naoto and Ragna came to save the day.

In Episode Extra, it's implied that it happens after the events of Central Fiction, yet quite a lot of the characters (such as Naoto) don't recognize each other, seemingly meeting for the first time. Which makes no sense since Naoto was quite important and interacted with Rachel, Makoto Nanaya and few others, even Hazama.

Also everyone remembers Ragna where in BlazBlue: Central Fiction he erased himself making no one remember him.

 

[MrHazama]

Yeah which is why I'm pretty neutral unless there is something that would imply otherwise. I probably wouldn't be surprised it doesn't get accepted, but like I said earlier, nice to see some BlazBlue related stuff here

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Its been a while since ive played through the game so dont take my word on this as 100% fact but im almost positive theres stuff about System XX and the Phantom Field it created being a patchwork of stuff from events across the blazblue timeline that it had been primarily observing, which would explain the contradicting interractions, as well as equalizing all of the fighters' power to make the tournament fair. Dont quote me on that but i feel like this was a thing explained in the story mode.

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

Its been a while since ive played through the game so dont take my word on this as 100% fact but im almost positive theres stuff about System XX and the Phantom Field it created being a patchwork of stuff from events across the blazblue timeline that it had been primarily observing, which would explain the contradicting interractions, as well as equalizing all of the fighters' power to make the tournament fair. Dont quote me on that but i feel like this was a thing explained in the story mode.

I am not sure I remember them saying anything about that though I may have to go back and look into Cross Tag.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I am not sure I remember them saying anything about that though I may have to go back and look into Cross Tag.

I plan on replaying it so i'll keep yall updated

 

[Theglassman12]

If it was only the blazblue timeline System XX was observing then there wouldn't be a reason for locations from Under Night, RWBY and Persona to show up in these locations.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

If it was only the blazblue timeline System XX was observing then there wouldn't be a reason for locations from Under Night, RWBY and Persona to show up in these locations.

Didnt say it was only the blazblue timeline that was observed, just that it was primarily the timeline, hence why the majority of the cast is blazblue characters and System XX's BlazBlue keystone is the center behind how every other universe got chosen.

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

And on how BlazBlue has a bigger impact with Hazama ending with the Keystone is the canon one since it leads to the Extra Arcade Story where 3% Susano'o arrives.

To which rest of the group struggled with until Naoto and Ragna came and destroyed that Susano'o copy.

 

[Strife304]

I wouldn’t use the phantom fields as a basis for it being canon to BlazBlue when Dark War has far more stuff that makes it canon, like White Justice and Juusan appearing in the game when they were referenced in CF.

Im not making the comparison to say "the 'x' is more canon than the 'y' is", I'm saying that it should be treated just as valuable on the basis of Mori's interview, and the direction of its development being a collection of the series up until that point. This is what truly matters here.

I'm only mentioning the Phantom Fields as an example of previously introduced concepts at the time of TAG's release, being further expanded on in its Episode mode. Which, in retrospect, made it just as relevant for certain lore bits as any other spin-off at the time. BBDW and TAG were also being worked on by Mori simultaneously, and in the same material collection he does state that BBDW will reveal things that were alluded to in CFーjust as he alludes to important info being gleaned in TAG.

So I do not deny your point, but none of it truly detracts from TAG's credibility, I think.

Overall. I'm actually quite curious

Uh, I have a server on discord if you talk on there, or we can talk on the wallーno offense, but I'd like to stay on track.

What exactly is this "important information" that makes the spin-off relevant to the main series?

Also I wouldn't use SMT Dante since he is an smt character with little to no relation to the original Dante while the guys in CTB were, afaik, straight up pulled from their verses and dropped into BB

I was directed to the official standards for crossovers of this variety and that was the example I was given. But to deliberate on whether or not they're exactly the same person, it does touch a tad on the when and where each character is as Shadow-Ragna mentioned earlier. However, due to how Blazblue treats other worlds / alternate universes it technically would not be their "original" counterparts, or rather it isn't exactly relevant.

For example, the events of Persona 4 and everything up to when Yu Narukami gets ported to TAG could very well host limitless retellings of the story, and he could be some random version of the protagonist that could be a parody of the true P4 protagonist. It doesn't have to be the "original". I'll delve deeper into this via the important information Mori is alluding to.

Again, referencing the Phantom Field lore. We learn how it can be used, how someone skilled enough can interact with the environment, and how it can be weaponized here and here. Most of this is vastly different from how Nine and Nobody in Xblaze: Lost Memories experienced a Phantom Field. More important information to note would be how Clavis Alucard sealed Systemーhow she can be deemed as another God in the verseーand the Alucard clan being the only one's who can seal such an entity.

There is much to glean from TAG, and while BBDW for example, was going to be the supreme successor to every entry of the franchise.. TAG should not be excluded or be deemed obsolete for that reason or any other.

 

[Theglassman12]

Like I asked earlier, I’m curious what TAG brought that’s new important information because a lot of stuff from TAG is for the most part what the mainline series already covered from my knowledge.

 

[Strife304]

I mean, whether it's new or not doesn't really matter. But I gave some examples in my reply to Tony

 

[Strife304]

Before I turn in for the night, let me address two things:

Despite TAG being what it is.. System would still be capable of accomplishing its task without the other verses involved.

Lastly, the continuity dilemma that seems to be the largest point of contention. As said before, each character can come from any random point in their respective continuity, see Yu Narukami and Yosuke's attempt at rationalizing their appearance. After that, they continue to ponder on the prospect of System being able to pull them in regardless of location and time.

Yeah, even System itself states all of this in the beginning of the game. After having read their memories and taking information from their worlds, it jumbles up the participants on purpose so that everyone brought into the Phantom Field will be easily manipulated into having tag battles.

 

[MrHazama]

Uh, I have a server on discord if you talk on there, or we can talk on the wallーno offense, but I'd like to stay on track.

That's fine, I don't mind discussing on discord.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah the stuff you brought up to Tony wasn’t new nor important information, we knew this stuff back in Lost Memories with the Phantom Field being able to mess with anyone who isn’t the creator.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Whether it’s new information or not, I don’t exactly see any legitimate reason for pushback. It doesn’t scale any characters, asserts itself as canon to one series, as to which the title is the name of game, and everything being presented it more or less only tied to BlazBlue.

 

[Strife304]

And I have already said that this stuff was brought up in Xblaze: Lost Memories first, but the way they're using it is different in TAGーwhich at the time of release, was relatively new information.

As an aside to this "new info" conversation, I must note that everything I have presented isn't explained or listed in the cosmology blog or any page I've seen regarding Blazblue. The information you're describing isn't even on Nine's ( no xblaze key btw ) , Nobody's or Es' page. There isn't even a section regarding Phantom Fields or much of anything in Xblaze: Lost Memories, and after a brief skim of both their pages, the only thing that I've seen in reference to Phantom Fields is that "Nobody is nigh-omniscient" in the Phantom Fieldーeverything else that composes their profiles is scaling off of Blazblue or attributed to Embryo lore in Code Embryo. From what I've given in my examples, Phantom Fields behave differently from Embryos and this adds another layer of things the characters and overall verse should have.

So as far as I'm concerned, with what's on the site, this information would be new and extremely important moving forward.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Milly_Rocking_Bandit Strife's literally using the new important information as the reasoning to have TAG be used which I've yet to see. So if he wants to use that as a reason to justify using cross tag when what-ifs are hardly used as a label for side stories for the series, then I'd like to see what's new and important that the mainline series doesn't cover.

@Strife304 Did you check the phenomena intervention page? Because it literally has the scan for Lost Memories on Nobody implanting laws in her own phantom field. Yeah, there's not a section talking about phantom fields because Phantom fields haven't been elaborated much until Dark War dropped, where every other area the main cast are going to is someone else's phantom fields which elaborate on what they do beyond being a pocket dimension that imposes laws.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Strife's literally using the new important information as the reasoning to have TAG be used which I've yet to see. So if he wants to use that as a reason to justify using cross tag when what-ifs are hardly used as a label for side stories for the series, then I'd like to see what's new and important that the mainline series doesn't cover.

I would say the interview by Mori to be “new important information”, as I don’t recall it being brought up in any other CrossTag thread.

 

[Theglassman12]

"Why does a spinoff reveal such important information!?" I like that sort of situation (laughs). Therefore, it's possible that TAG might end up revealing important information (laughs).

Mori himself is claiming TAG might bring new important information, and I'm waiting for what exactly the new important information that TAG brings that no other mainline game beforehand has brought up. Does it talk about Azrael's nature as a whole? Does it expand on any of the side stories or reveal something we didn't know about prior? If there's new information in TAG then I'd love to see it, if not then Mori's just not telling the truth in this interview and was just hyping up the game.

 

[Strife304]

Yeah, there's not a section talking about phantom fields because Phantom fields haven't been elaborated much until Dark War dropped,

This is exactly why I brought up TAG being made alongside BBDW and releasing before it. I literally just disproved this with everything I replied to Tony with.

We receive genuine descriptions of what Phantom Fields are, how they work, and how they can be used outside of imposing laws in TAG as well. That warrants it's own section, and since TAG's iteration of the Phantom Field falls in line with old information ( Xblaze ) and the more recent information ( BBDW ), I dont see why it should be discounted. It's just as important.

Mori himself is claiming TAG might bring new important information

There literally is no mention of anything being "new" in that dialogue.

And i think the very fact he admits to putting important information into a spin-off and enjoying that sort of scenario should also discredit pushback on its legitimacy.

Did you check the phenomena intervention page? Because it literally has the scan for Lost Memories on Nobody implanting laws in her own phantom field.

I did. Not sure how those two scans about her riddles in particular are indicative of Phenomenon Intervention, but this is extremely lacking in comparison to all that I just showed with what TAG introduces.

 

[Strife304]

Okay, here is a couple more Q&A statements from the same interview that he makes. Sending this now as I will be busy for the remainder of the day.

I'm including this one in order to further dissuade any notion that TAG should be discredited for being less serious than other entries. As over the course of Blazblue he fully intended on making it a fair balance for those who enjoy deep and lighthearted moments, and anyone that doesn't particularly take to fighting games.

As you were writing the main story, was there anything you felt particularly aimless about?​

For BlazBlue, we wanted the story to be fun for those who weren't interested in it as a fighting game, so we included "with all of our might, [both] serious and gag" stories. Those who eagerly read even the most detailed backstory were actually quite many, especially those who put their own work in. After that, there was a consideration to not make the story too heavy. From before, when the drama CD THE WHEEL OF FORTUNE was released, we heard quite a few voices saying that "the story is too heavy". Being able to not pull too hard on the viewers' heartstrings, while still bringing excitement and creating a moving story would be nice, I think.

I'd also like to show it is in his express interest for certain interactions to become a reality with the Blazblue cast alone. The crossover interactions and that aspect are pretty much an added bonus. Mori wanted to have preexisting characters that, on an interpersonal level, remain consistent even in the spin-off and synergize with each other.

Can also tie back to my point earlier about them being parodies of the main cast, because the TAG interactions would also be playing up certain caricatures of their mainline counterparts to add to the drama and overall entertainment.

Q: Please tell us about some highlights of TAG's Episode Mode.​

I want attention to be on the bargaining among characters that haven't been seen in the BlazBlue series up until now. Especially, I really like xxxx and __'s relationship. In the original work, __ was established as someone who didn't listen to others talk, and even in TAG that continues strongly. After a certain event happens, since xxxx is a practical person, they work hard to explain the current situation to __ and what they should plan to do next, but __ continues to ask "so what?" and do only what they wanted to do. I really like that sort of interaction, and it was something I really wanted to see. Of course, please look forward to scenes for conversations between the characters from BlazBlue and the other series as well. Although they don't have a conversation, when you put Under Night In-Birth's Waldstein and Tager together, the screen barely has any room left (laugh).

BlazBlue: Central Fiction Official Setting Material Collection, Special Interview with Mori Toshimichi, pgs. (268 - 271).

This should also toss the whole "new info" aspect of this conversation out of the window, as neither Mori nor myself said that it was inherently "new". I apologize if that's what I implied, but I'm saying in retrospect, relative to TAG's release and the direction Blazblue was heading, this info I presented would probably be "new", but it is undeniably important.

The only tnew concepts are the crossover itself, and some of the original cast who hardly got to shine in the main games finally getting time together as Mori wanted. So I'd even say that this adds more depth to the Blazblue roster's characterization and dynamics as well.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

I know this thread is a little slow rn, but, I agree. I don't see anything that discredit's Cross Tag from being One Sided, canonical crossover that jumble's up character's placement's in the time line, seeing as it seems it is elaborated that such a thing is a case in the story.

(I am upset that we won't get Tier 1 Ruby w/ Resistance to numerous BB and Persona Passive's tho)

 

[WeeklyBattles]

(I am upset that we won't get Tier 1 Ruby w/ Resistance to numerous BB and Persona Passive's tho)

I mean, they do make it very clear that all of their abilities carry over into xtag, one of the first things Ragna does when he meets people is ask them to explain their powers

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

I mean, they do make it very clear that all of their abilities carry over into xtag, one of the first things Ragna does when he meets people is ask them to explain their powers

Well, it'd probably require a bit of investigating to see which abilities carry over- I doubt all of them will carry over, as per how the wiki would treat it. For all we know, they may even be considered as the same ability, but functioning differently to some extent. Plus, someone would have to actually make profile's for them in that case... And that's a lot of characters.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Well, it'd probably require a bit of investigating to see which abilities carry over- I doubt all of them will carry over, as per how the wiki would treat it. For all we know, they may even be considered as the same ability, but functioning differently to some extent. Plus, someone would have to actually make profile's for them in that case... And that's a lot of characters.