Causality user vs Causality user

[Chariot190]

Uhh...okay? I'm confused, you're just proving my point here.

You don't have a point.

Confused, if GER negates the whole verse why can't you find me an example of it negating MIH's universe reset without going to a game?

Because he hasn't been shown in the manga since his debut? Everything we know of him comes from guides or secondary material.
But I can show you a fuckton of statements, light novels, games and more if that's what you want.

Also why the backpedaling? Suddenly official sources showing you wrong don't matter? You said official, that is official.

I mean obviously a statement from a guide that features MIH jacking GER off saying it can negate anything isn't good enough, so why is a direct official showing somehow not good enough now?

I'm also not sure whether it is officially cannon or not.

I mean the canon guides weren't good enough, you wanted to be shown it, so well, there it is.

Now, what do you think matters more. Your headcanon based on nothing but assumptions, or multiple cases in multiple official sources showing GER unphased by MIH?

You're also "kind of" annoying by not addressing the actual person fighting against the character so I guess we share that in common.

Because you turned this into MIH vs GER. Your whole point hinges on MIH vs GER. So until that is sorted out, that is what this is. That's your fault.

Ok, can you show me proof that GER was unaffected?

Burden of proof is on you. You made the claim he was, so prove he was?

For you to have a point, you need to prove that unknown variable as true, otherwise it's an unknown that can't be used either for or against.
Except it isn't actually an unknown because every piece of media says he wouldn't be effected, and there's statements saying post part 6, that RTZ negates everything and is the ultimate ability in verse.

Not a good argument in the slightest. Proves nothing.

Lad, you realize I don't have to prove a thing, you do.
You're making the claim GER is effected by MIH, so you prove it.
Lack of evidence isn't evidence, it's headcanon, and you have quite literally nothing backing your stance. You need to make numerous assumptions just to even have it POSSIBLE to argue.

Can you prove the opposite? If no then yes. The default interpretation would be that they were affected.

No? The default assumption would be we don't know so we don't argue it.
Can I prove the opposite?

JoJoveller claims RTZ can turn anything into nothing, and is the ultimate ability in the verse, this goes up to early Part 8, for reference MIH isn't even remotely glazed.
Various things supervised by Araki claim RTZ is a god-like ability that will revert anything to nothing.
In both ports of ASB, GER is the only thing in the entire game unphased by MIH, as a feature, for the sole purpose of showing MIH wouldn't effect GER.
In a novel, a bloodlusted MIH attacked GER, GER was uneffected, gestured once, and put Pucci in a world where life and death don't exist.

So we have, canon glaze.
Tertiary glaze.
Official media showing us exactly (thrice even).
And then a non-canon novel that straight up has GER neg diff MIH.

And yet somehow it's me who needs to prove the opposite? When your entire premise is built on you just saying it is?

Never said GER didn't have uni range, also not sure why you're continuing the chain of saying something you have no proof to back up.

I have proof though, and burden is on you,

Then, it is as simple as proving me wrong. Something you continuously have shown to be incapable of doing lol.

The argument ended when DRW001 posted lad.

What tangible proof? I am merely stating that if it wasn't shown the default assumption is to doubt and be skeptical not sure what you don't understand.

See, right there, the ASSUMPTION, in your own words. Except it isn't, to even assume that to begin with you need to prove Gio even had GER still, which you haven't done. Once you do that, you need to prove ten other things.

There is no default assumption, your headcanon isn't fact. Your headcanon isn't even supported. Everything on the topic says otherwise, and yet you somehow think your conjecture takes precedence?

There's no reason to get so heated over a versus thread, I will state it again. Prove that GER was not affected by MIH's universe reset, until you do so I will continue to believe it was as there is nothing that goes against that.

EVERYTHING goes against that, you're just ignoring everything, making assumptions, and then saying your assumption is fact.
I shouldn't even be replying to this, it's a waste of time and burden is on you as you made the claim to begin with.

If your whole argument hinges on like 5 assumptions and ignoring everything you don't like, that isn't an argument, it's legit yap.

I'm not a Jojo supporter,

I can tell, so why argue like you are?

that is in fact your job since you're rooting for him.

It's your job too actually, don't make claims of something you don't understand and frame it as fact.
By making such claims, you're expected to actually know.
Doing so just makes you look ignorant.

I'm simply asking for you to prove my question wrong with any form of tangible evidence from the anime or manga. If you can't do so then take your own advice lol.

Why the constant backpedaling? Regardless we have guides that say RTZ is the ultimate ability and will effect anything. A guide we use on wiki mind you.

And, again, you need to prove he was effected, I don't need to prove he wasn't, but ASB and other such stuff is good enough, it was supervised by the author.

That literally is what I was referring to, there's no need to be this obnoxious.

Stop backpedaling.
I said RTZ kicked in while GER didn't exist and wasn't cognizant.
You called me a liar, and said he was cognizant.

When in reality he wasn't, he was only cognizant AFTER RTZ kicked in. Which even the profile states.

So no, it wasn't what you were referring to, you argued and said he was cogniant when RTZ took effect.

Once again, as a supporter and person who is rooting for Giorno it is your job to provide that evidence. I'm not a supporter of the verse, and yes you are correct. My argument is not an argument, because I'm asking for you to provide proof to support your claims which is now the 7th or 8th time I've asked that.

Huh? Dude, this ain't how this shit works.
You made a claim that GER was effected by MIH. YOU prove that shit, you're being told we don't know if he was effected, he's never even shown for us to know, and we don't even know if he had GER still for it to even be relevant, and yet you think somehow it's on me to prove he wasn't?

Ok easy. He lost GER afterward, he didn't have GER, so GER wasn't effected, there, easy.
Or the guide statements, games, novels, and more which you're ignoring.

Your argument isn't an argument, yet you sure as hell arguing it all the same.

This is a blatant misinterpretation of how the ability functions, it does indeed affect people.

It literally doesn't. If it effected people, they'd be sped up too.
It does quite literally everything BUT effect people.

Once again, I never said it harmed anyone and in fact used that exact point to show that so long as you don't target Giorno or directly affect him RTZ seemingly won't activate.

It never harmed anyone, it never effected anyone either.

Your whole point hinges on like ten unknowns that must be true, and then ignoring the fact we just know MIH wouldn't effect GER anyway.

Not how it works. They are 2 different forms of causality manip, please use your eyes and read even if it might be seemingly difficult.

It actually is how it works, that's exactly how we treat abilities on wiki.
Causality manip is causality manip, unless it's Higher D or has layers or something wild, it's all the same.
That isn't the case here.
RTZ can negate Uni+ 4D causality manip.
It can thus negate arguably inferior causality manip in potency.

Um yes...it is NEP interaction...what exactly are you even saying here? That's what I said.

DRW001 said it wouldn't work, because RTZ can take effect even if GER is deleted from existence.

You said no, it effected Diavolo's ability.

I said he actually effected the deleted time and did so while deleted even and thats what's accepted.

You said no, it's word salad, and that it's just NEP interaction.

I quoted the profile where it straight up shows that we accept that both Gio and GER, were in fact deleted when RTZ kicked in, tying it back to the original point where DRW001 said deleting them wouldn't even work and which you denied.

Follow the conversation.

Cool, you haven't read the profiles either because goddamn.

Dude, I was directly involved with this entire facet and the CRT that got it added.

It's not far, far, greater. They are different abilities with 2 different uses, also no one is arguing Diavolo isn't H3A.

A 4D ability that deletes the entire universe for a time that effects time, pace, causality and even fate (which in JoJo is some Higher D slop), is in fact, a greater ability than gravity manip with uni range. Couple that with statements saying RTZ can, in fact, negate every ability in verse, why is this even a argument?

 

[Voidnether]

He gets better by EoS, that's why I used that version specifically. Even then, the things AF has been shown affecting is superior to what GER has been shown affecting with RTZ (save for the NEP interaction which Kumagawa doesn't have) as the closest thing is probably imagination manifestation, but that is kinda different.

I'm sorry but it's not superior in any way
Kumagawa's All Fiction (Causality Manipulation) literally only has a lot of possible abilities listed that comes through it's use of CM, which then if compared to Giorno's one here (4-D), of course RTZ's potency is much better. We never bought off the argument in this wiki that if a specific ability has more possible uses coming from it = It's superior than 4-D causality manipulation just because smurf works only for 1-A and above: It still doesn't disprove that RTZ's range here is 2-C to say the least (Low Multiversal) and like All Fiction is only universal. And that All Fiction is practically limited to his sight in which RTZ doesn't have that and are we just going to ignore his weakness? No, right? So, what stops Giorno from putting Kumagawa in an infinite death loop? Hence why I voted for Giorno here (Giorno is just going to powernull his causality manipulation, it worked to Diavolo and just because his causality manipulation has a lot of usages: It still doesn't stop it from being nullified, it's a stomp match if u ask me since Kumagawa can't do anything without All-Fiction)

Causality Manipulation (Can erase causes and effects with All Fiction, removed the effects of Zenkichi's kicks and erased all damage received. This also allows him to warp space, induce Absolute Zero by erasing temperature from something, erase people, time, concepts, laws, memories, powers, and even his own injuries making him capable of resurrecting himself)

Range: Several meters with screws. Universal with All Fiction, possibly limited to his line of sight.

Weaknesses: Kumagawa is very underconfident, to the degree that he always assumes that he will lose. Even though he wants to win, he cannot imagine that he ever will. Because of this, his Imagination Manifestation is incredibly weak. A continuous cycle of death can incapacitate him

All Fiction: His Minus ability allows him to deny any aspect of reality. So far he has used his ability to heal any wound done to him despite how grave they are (Crushed his own brain with a giant screw and he could still regenerate), resisted having his body rotted away, brought himself back from death, and stole Zenkichi's sight. He can also heal the wounds of other people, and seemingly also materials that have been destroyed. He has stated that he doesn't have to touch anyone or use his hands to use his All Fiction, but he does so anyway. One drawback was that he cannot undo something he's already rejected, as shown when he stole Zenkichi's sight and stated that he could not undo what he did, but by the end of the series Ajimu grants him Non-Fiction, which undoes the erasure. He also seems to be able to find people who are far away by some unknown method. During his time at Suisou Academy he is shown to be able to even use All Fiction to erase the concept of colors, manipulate laws by erasing them, manipulate time making it so that his time limit doesn't arrive among possibly other uses and even erase the temperature of something dropping them to absolute 0. Furthermore during that time he explained that to erase something, said "thing" has to be in his line of sight, however it is unknown as to what counts as "line of sight" due to his capability of erasing abstract things like concepts and laws. It is unknown if All Fiction has this condition due to him being capable of erasing injuries that are not in his line of sight.

The conclusion is that simple, if well: You just read both of their profiles properly lol

 

[Chariot190]

No that's completely unrelated, and MIH does in fact affect people. Just not in a conventional way.

It is LITERALLY stated not to on panel.
The entire point is that it doesn't only Pucci himself and non-living things are effected.

Ok and? That doesn't have anything to do with me saying MIH "kills people".

Yes it does? Why wouldn't GER exist then?

Evidence?

Novel. I said as much.

Precisely, we aren't shown anything. If we are not shown RTZ activating during the uni reset then the natural assumption is GER was affected.

Assumptions? The default assumption is that he doesn't even have GER anymore. So right from the start you're layering assumptions to conclude a point.

If it was affected because MIH doesn't inherently target a person that still proves as a way to bypass it your circular logic is next level I'm genuinely impressed.

And yet you're arguing that Kuga could effect the world, to effect GER right?
Yet the instant he effects the world, in such a way, that effects GER, RTZ would kick in, because it's effecting GER now.

This ignores how everything ever says that GER wouldn't even be phased by MIH but hell let's just pretend otherwise ig. Even under that logic your argument doesn't hold up.

And as I have said multiple times, you are free to show evidence to go against my claims.

I have, you keep backpedaling. Like you've LEGIT been shown how official sources think MIH interacts with GER (as in, it doesn't), and you're ignoring even that blatant showing.

Why are you so heated? Lol, and I don't understand why you keep mentioning making CRT's? I'm simply asking for you to provide evidence for these claims you've made.

Because the evidence is on the profile? If you don't want to adhere to it, go make a CRT.

 

[Voidnether]

Anyways, GER passively uses RTZ to Kumagawa w/o him or Giorno noticing at all -> Kumagawa's All-Fiction (CM) gets nullified since Giorno could do the same to Diavolo with its Time Erasure that apparently has CM in it too -> Infinite death loop, which is Kumagawa's weakness. Yeah stomp match if u ask me. Every ability that Kumagawa had is through All-Fiction, and everything there is a subset of its CM

 

[Gamecooob]

why is MIH even brought up lol how does that relate to the other guys causality manip?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

You don't have a point.

You don't have a point.

Because he hasn't been shown in the manga since his debut? Everything we know of him comes from guides or secondary material.
But I can show you a fuckton of statements, light novels, games and more if that's what you want.

Yes, that is exactly what I have been asking for. Evidence to support every claim you've made.

Also why the backpedaling? Suddenly official sources showing you wrong don't matter? You said official, that is official.

Not backpedaling, I am not sure whether it is canon or not. Just because it's in a game does not mean it is canon to the main series.

I mean obviously a statement from a guide that features MIH jacking GER off saying it can negate anything isn't good enough, so why is a direct official showing somehow not good enough now?

Proof?

I mean the canon guides weren't good enough, you wanted to be shown it, so well, there it is.

You never showed the canon guides.

Now, what do you think matters more. Your headcanon based on nothing but assumptions, or multiple cases in multiple official sources showing GER unphased by MIH?

Proof?

Because you turned this into MIH vs GER. Your whole point hinges on MIH vs GER. So until that is sorted out, that is what this is. That's your fault.

No, it is not. I used MIH's universe reset as an example to show a way to bypass RTZ's targeting which you still have not once shown a source that goes against that.

Burden of proof is on you. You made the claim he was, so prove he was?

No, I said that it is only natural to assume so because there is nothing shown going against it. Which you still have not shown. It is also sad that you are an alleged knowledgeable member and can't simply send evidence to support your claim.

For you to have a point, you need to prove that unknown variable as true, otherwise it's an unknown that can't be used either for or against.
Except it isn't actually an unknown because every piece of media says he wouldn't be effected, and there's statements saying post part 6, that RTZ negates everything and is the ultimate ability in verse.

Proof?

Lad, you realize I don't have to prove a thing, you do.
You're making the claim GER is effected by MIH, so you prove it.
Lack of evidence isn't evidence, it's headcanon, and you have quite literally nothing backing your stance. You need to make numerous assumptions just to even have it POSSIBLE to argue.

I don't have to prove something that's so self evident, secondly you are the one who is making claims about being unaffected. So I am asking you to prove that, it is a question.

No? The default assumption would be we don't know so we don't argue it.
Can I prove the opposite?

JoJoveller claims RTZ can turn anything into nothing, and is the ultimate ability in the verse, this goes up to early Part 8, for reference MIH isn't even remotely glazed.
Various things supervised by Araki claim RTZ is a god-like ability that will revert anything to nothing.
In both ports of ASB, GER is the only thing in the entire game unphased by MIH, as a feature, for the sole purpose of showing MIH wouldn't effect GER.
In a novel, a bloodlusted MIH attacked GER, GER was uneffected, gestured once, and put Pucci in a world where life and death don't exist.

So we have, canon glaze.
Tertiary glaze.
Official media showing us exactly (thrice even).
And then a non-canon novel that straight up has GER neg diff MIH.

And yet somehow it's me who needs to prove the opposite? When your entire premise is built on you just saying it is?

This doesn't have any evidence supporting it. I'm not going to believe you until you do that. Sorry.

I have proof though, and burden is on you,

Send it.

The argument ended when DRW001 posted lad.

Then, why are you responding?

See, right there, the ASSUMPTION, in your own words. Except it isn't, to even assume that to begin with you need to prove Gio even had GER still, which you haven't done. Once you do that, you need to prove ten other things.

There is no default assumption, your headcanon isn't fact. Your headcanon isn't even supported. Everything on the topic says otherwise, and yet you somehow think your conjecture takes precedence?

It is supported, you're just trying very hard to not make it the case. There are only 2 possible outcomes to my question, either
A. GER was not affected by MIH's uni reset, in which case why is there never a confrontation to show this?
B. GER was affected by MIH's uni reset and thus, there was no confrontation. Which is the most likely interpretation given what was shown (that being, there was no confrontation between either stand)

EVERYTHING goes against that, you're just ignoring everything, making assumptions, and then saying your assumption is fact.
I shouldn't even be replying to this, it's a waste of time and burden is on you as you made the claim to begin with.

If your whole argument hinges on like 5 assumptions and ignoring everything you don't like, that isn't an argument, it's legit yap.

Never said my assumption was fact, I said in order to prove what you're claiming we'd need evidence.

I can tell, so why argue like you are?

That's the thing, I'm not arguing lol. I'm asking a question and asking for proof that comes with answer to said question.

It's your job too actually, don't make claims of something you don't understand and frame it as fact.
By making such claims, you're expected to actually know.
Doing so just makes you look ignorant.

Not my job, I don't support Jojo and I'm not rooting for either contender at the moment. I'm simply asking for a compilation of each other's feats with evidence. Some of the stuff you mentioned is not on the page, so I want proof.

Why the constant backpedaling? Regardless we have guides that say RTZ is the ultimate ability and will effect anything. A guide we use on wiki mind you.

And, again, you need to prove he was effected, I don't need to prove he wasn't, but ASB and other such stuff is good enough, it was supervised by the author.

Why the constant backpedaling? Regardless you have not actually given any evidence to support your claims. I thus cannot take what you're saying seriously.

Stop backpedaling.
I said RTZ kicked in while GER didn't exist and wasn't cognizant.
You called me a liar, and said he was cognizant.

When in reality he wasn't, he was only cognizant AFTER RTZ kicked in. Which even the profile states.

So no, it wasn't what you were referring to, you argued and said he was cogniant when RTZ took effect.

Well as I sent earlier, it is said that GER is immune when using RTZ so I don't see what you mean. However, apparently the profile is outdated.

Huh? Dude, this ain't how this shit works.
You made a claim that GER was effected by MIH. YOU prove that shit, you're being told we don't know if he was effected, he's never even shown for us to know, and we don't even know if he had GER still for it to even be relevant, and yet you think somehow it's on me to prove he wasn't?

Ok easy. He lost GER afterward, he didn't have GER, so GER wasn't effected, there, easy.
Or the guide statements, games, novels, and more which you're ignoring.

Your argument isn't an argument, yet you sure as hell arguing it all the same.

You only need to provide evidence to support and disprove what I'm saying, it isn't hard. If you don't want to do so cool, until someone else does so you will have a hard time convincing me otherwise.

It literally doesn't. If it effected people, they'd be sped up too.
It does quite literally everything BUT effect people.

You're talking about specifically the sped up part, I'm talking solely about the reset.

Your whole point hinges on like ten unknowns that must be true, and then ignoring the fact we just know MIH wouldn't effect GER anyway.

Proof?

It actually is how it works, that's exactly how we treat abilities on wiki.
Causality manip is causality manip, unless it's Higher D or has layers or something wild, it's all the same.
That isn't the case here.
RTZ can negate Uni+ 4D causality manip.
It can thus negate arguably inferior causality manip in potency.

Objectively incorrect, causality manip is one of the most varied abilities on the wiki. It is incredibly important to show clear limits of what it can or cannot do as it by default is able to do anything. You clearly do not understand how the ability works.

DRW001 said it wouldn't work, because RTZ can take effect even if GER is deleted from existence.

You said no, it effected Diavolo's ability.

Yes, RTZ affected Diavolo's ability. It didn't literally come back from EE otherwise it would be written on the profile as a resistance (it isn't, shocker).

I said he actually effected the deleted time and did so while deleted even and thats what's accepted.

You said no, it's word salad, and that it's just NEP interaction.

Yes, because it is literally NEP interaction as written on the page. It is a case of his causality hax being able to affect non existence.

I quoted the profile where it straight up shows that we accept that both Gio and GER, were in fact deleted when RTZ kicked in, tying it back to the original point where DRW001 said deleting them wouldn't even work and which you denied.

Follow the conversation.

Except GER wasn't actually deleted, the scene explicitly shows that both Giorno and GER are still present.

Dude, I was directly involved with this entire facet and the CRT that got it added.

A 4D ability that deletes the entire universe for a time that effects time, pace, causality and even fate (which in JoJo is some Higher D slop), is in fact, a greater ability than gravity manip with uni range. Couple that with statements saying RTZ can, in fact, negate every ability in verse, why is this even a argument?

I am not talking about Jojo, I'm talking about Kumagawa.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I'm sorry but it's not superior in any way
Kumagawa's All Fiction (Causality Manipulation) literally only has a lot of possible abilities listed that comes through it's use of CM

That still proves that his CM is superior in terms of application & range of things. GER is never shown directly erasing concepts, or majority of the things AF has shown being able to effect. Was never trying to argue the ability itself has more power or affected a higher dimension than the other, etc. Not sure where you got that idea from.

 

[Voidnether]

That still proves that his CM is superior in terms of application & range of things. GER is never shown directly erasing concepts, or majority of the things AF has shown being able to effect. Was never trying to argue the ability itself has more power or affected a higher dimension than the other, etc. Not sure where you got that idea from.

All those still stems from the same source: Causality Manipulation, if there's an ability with a lot of sub-abilities — If the main ability is nullified, you simply just can't use those sub-abilities. Like what difference does it make if its Causality Manipulation erases concepts anyway? It's still Causality Manipulation, and it's the type that GER could just negate (Like, Diavolo had Causality Manipulation with Time Manipulation as the sub-set and GER still negated its CM anyway)

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

It is LITERALLY stated not to on panel.
The entire point is that it doesn't only Pucci himself and non-living things are effected.

Again, am not talking about the speeding up of things. Not sure how much clearer I need to spell it out for you.

Yes it does? Why wouldn't GER exist then?

Don't see where you're getting at here exactly.

Novel. I said as much.

Proof? I don't just trust something because you say it.

Assumptions? The default assumption is that he doesn't even have GER anymore. So right from the start you're layering assumptions to conclude a point.

Why would he not have GER?

And yet you're arguing that Kuga could effect the world, to effect GER right?

No, I haven't argued anything for Kumagawa. Not sure who this "Kuga" person is.

This ignores how everything ever says that GER wouldn't even be phased by MIH but hell let's just pretend otherwise ig. Even under that logic your argument doesn't hold up.

Proof?

I have, you keep backpedaling. Like you've LEGIT been shown how official sources think MIH interacts with GER (as in, it doesn't), and you're ignoring even that blatant showing.

No, you have not even a single time actually.

Because the evidence is on the profile? If you don't want to adhere to it, go make a CRT.

Where is it stated on the profile that GER can beat MIH, can you prove it?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

All those still stems from the same source: Causality Manipulation, if there's an ability with a lot of sub-abilities — If the main ability is nullified, you simply just can't use those sub-abilities. Like what difference does it make if its Causality Manipulation erases concepts anyway? It's still Causality Manipulation, and it's the type that GER could just negate (Like, Diavolo had Causality Manipulation with Time Manipulation as the sub-set and GER still negated its CM anyway)

And what exactly is your personal reasoning for why the causality manip of another character who by your own words is "just" causality manip would automatically negate another users causality hax even if they are just the same ability? Explain this logic to me, because I am pretty sure in order for 1 to beat the other 1 has to be superior. But if all causality manip is "still causality manip" then why are there clear differences in application and uses?

 

[Voidnether]

And what exactly is your personal reasoning for why the causality manip of another character who by your own words is "just" causality manip would automatically negate another users causality hax even if they are just the same ability? Explain this logic to me, because I am pretty sure in order for 1 to beat the other 1 has to be superior. But if all causality manip is "still causality manip" then why are there clear differences in application and uses?

If the main ability is nullified, you simply just can't use those sub-abilities

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

That isn't an answer. Who's to say Kumagawa's abilities won't nullify GER's?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

By that logic if Kumagawa erases the concept of stands then how does GER do anything?

 

[AmonInChains]

No, it is not. I used MIH's universe reset as an example to show a way to bypass RTZ's targeting which you still have not once shown a source that goes against that.

It is supported, you're just trying very hard to not make it the case. There are only 2 possible outcomes to my question, either
A. GER was not affected by MIH's uni reset, in which case why is there never a confrontation to show this?
B. GER was affected by MIH's uni reset and thus, there was no confrontation. Which is the most likely interpretation given what was shown (that being, there was no confrontation between either stand)

Could you stop bringing Made in Heaven into this, since it is currently accepted on the profile that is unknown the state of GER after Vento Aureo?

Note 2: It is unknown whether Giorno's stand lost its Requiem form or not when the Stand arrow fell off after the fight with Diavolo.

 

[Voidnether]

That isn't an answer. Who's to say Kumagawa's abilities won't nullify GER's?

Kumagawa's All Fiction was never shown to be able to nullify any other Causality Manipulation in the first place: Even if that's the case, GER is still faster. You know that Stands aren't equalized in terms of speed, right?
Even if you put speed equalized on the matchup, Stands won't be affected as those affected would simply be Giorno and Kumagawa. It's that simple.

By that logic if Kumagawa erases the concept of stands then how does GER do anything?

Kumagawa was only shown to erase the concept of colors, GER blitzes him for the reason above btw

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Kumagawa's All Fiction was never shown to be able to nullify any other Causality Manipulation in the first place: Even if that's the case, GER is still faster. You know that Stands aren't equalized in terms of speed, right?
Even if you put speed equalized on the matchup, Stands won't be affected as those affected would simply be Giorno and Kumagawa. It's that simple.

Not how it works, speed equalization effects the stands too.

Kumagawa was only shown to erase the concept of colors, GER blitzes him for the reason above btw

This really just shows that you realized the loop hole in your own argument and are now trying to use another to cover it up. SBA effects everyone taking place in the fight, so does speed equalization. Erasing the concept of colors is also a much better feat than erasing the concept of some arbitrary arrow from space that led to people being able to use apart of their soul to fight. So that is also a terrible argument.

 

[Voidnether]

Not how it works, speed equalization effects the stands too.

This really just shows that you realized the loop hole in your own argument and are now trying to use another to cover it up. SBA effects everyone taking place in the fight, so does speed equalization. Erasing the concept of colors is also a much better feat than erasing the concept of some arbitrary arrow from space that led to people being able to use apart of their soul to fight. So that is also a terrible argument.

Yeah who's gonna tell him now

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Could you stop bringing Made in Heaven into this, since it is currently accepted on the profile that is unknown the state of GER after Vento Aureo?

Thank you for actually providing proof behind that, I don't have any issue with dropping MIH in the discussion. Was genuinely asking how it would be unaffected if MIH existed and did what it did is all, I appreciate it.

 

[Medaka619]

From what I’m seeing, they both can’t kill each other. Even if Giorno beats Kumagawa to the ground, all fiction just passively brings him back. I don’t think the death loop would take place (could be wrong). But if speed was equalized, including the stands too, and Kumagawa erased the concepts of stands, what would even happen? His action would’ve still occurred obviously, but like, the concept of stands are gone, so how will RTZ even revert that? Bit confused on how it works.

 

[Omegabronic]

I vote GioGio FRA

Plus what is stopping GER from RTZ his action of moving, thus incapping him?

 

[Gamecooob]

Why would he not have GER?

Because the arrow fell out...? Like, you can revert requiem forms via just taking out the arrow lol

Besides, lets just brainstorm for a second:


*GER's RTZ worked on 4D CM and time hax
*In part 6, for SOME reason, RTZ wasn't present to revert a High 3-A gravity manip which resulted in a 4D time hax, which is arguably inferior to Diavolo's shit in terms of effectiveness.

Legit, if we thought about it, it's kinda clear that the man did NOT have GER in Part 6. I mean, it is abhorrently unknown and vague anyway, but if we just use deduction it clears the air a fair bit lol.

By that logic if Kumagawa erases the concept of stands then how does GER do anything?

He wouldn't even know what a stand is, he can't percieve GER lol

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

From what I’m seeing, they both can’t kill each other. Even if Giorno beats Kumagawa to the ground, all fiction just passively brings him back. I don’t think the death loop would take place (could be wrong). But if speed was equalized, including the stands too, and Kumagawa erased the concepts of stands, what would even happen? His action would’ve still occurred obviously, but like, the concept of stands are gone, so how will RTZ even revert that? Bit confused on how it works.

Finally someone who's actually taking both sides into consideration, that is a very good question. It is precisely what I'm trying to figure out.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Because the arrow fell out...? Like, you can revert requiem forms via just taking out the arrow lol

Besides, lets just brainstorm for a second:


*GER's RTZ worked on 4D CM and time hax
*In part 6, for SOME reason, RTZ wasn't present to revert a High 3-A gravity manip which resulted in a 4D time hax, which is arguably inferior to Diavolo's shit in terms of effectiveness.

Legit, if we thought about it, it's kinda clear that the man did NOT have GER in Part 6. I mean, it is abhorrently unknown and vague anyway, but if we just use deduction it clears the air a fair bit lol.

If the arrow being taken out is all it requires then I have even less of an opinion of GER as I did before.

He wouldn't even know what a stand is, he can't percieve GER lol

Now how it works in SBA with verse equalization.

 

[Omegabronic]

From what I’m seeing, they both can’t kill each other. Even if Giorno beats Kumagawa to the ground, all fiction just passively brings him back. I don’t think the death loop would take place (could be wrong). But if speed was equalized, including the stands too, and Kumagawa erased the concepts of stands, what would even happen? His action would’ve still occurred obviously, but like, the concept of stands are gone, so how will RTZ even revert that? Bit confused on how it works.

The action itself of the Concept being erased won't happen, so it will simply never come to pass, any action is turned to 0 before it can even be done to begin with

 

[Medaka619]

Because the arrow fell out...? Like, you can revert requiem forms via just taking out the arrow lol

Besides, lets just brainstorm for a second:


*GER's RTZ worked on 4D CM and time hax
*In part 6, for SOME reason, RTZ wasn't present to revert a High 3-A gravity manip which resulted in a 4D time hax, which is arguably inferior to Diavolo's shit in terms of effectiveness.

Legit, if we thought about it, it's kinda clear that the man did NOT have GER in Part 6. I mean, it is abhorrently unknown and vague anyway, but if we just use deduction it clears the air a fair bit lol.



He wouldn't even know what a stand is, he can't percieve GER lol

To be fair Kumagawa is a fan of Shonen manga and is even shown reading weekly shonen jump, the magazine where JoJo's Bizarre Adventure was serialized for a significant period. (But I know I’m pushing. The Medaka box pages are outdated and kinda mid anyways Ngl)

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

The action itself of the Concept being erased won't happen, so it will simply never come to pass, any action is turned to 0 before it can even be done to begin with

Don't think there's any evidence to assuredly say that would be the case, it is a bit of a touchy subject tbh.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

To be fair Kumagawa is a fan of Shonen manga and is even shown reading weekly shonen jump, the magazine where JoJo's Bizarre Adventure was serialized for a significant period. (But I know I’m pushing. The Medaka box pages are outdated and kinda mid anyways Ngl)

This wouldn't really change much other than give Kumagawa some knowledge at most, but I wasn't really using that for this matchup personally. It is a detail I actually forgot about though.

 

[Omegabronic]

Don't think there's any evidence to assuredly say that would be the case, it is a bit of a touchy subject tbh.

That is literally how it works, it is how it is accepted to work... the evidence is in the profile and Chariot has been talking to you this whole time

 

[Gamecooob]

Now how it works in SBA with verse equalization.

lol what? How does verse equalization make the other guy percieve GER, what? Are we giving him Stand Energy? Does the guy's verse even have an energy system?

Like, verse equalization is pretty much just balancing energy systems, which we can't do here because neither party's verse has anything similar to eachothers, that they depend on, like at all.

 

[Medaka619]

I would vote Inconclusive though. Assuming Giorno can’t death loop Kumagawa and all fiction just keeps bringing him back.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

That is literally how it works, it is how it is accepted to work... the evidence is in the profile and Chariot has been talking to you this whole time

It is never shown against someone with Kumagawa's degree of causality hax. So no, it is questionable.

Plus what is stopping GER from RTZ his action of moving, thus incapping him?

It is not shown being able to do this.

 

[Medaka619]

Even if Kumagawa can’t get the upper hand and keeps coming back, it would be miserable and annoying for Giorno to keep killing him. In the end, this is in character for Kumagawa to make someone miserable and fed up with his existence. (Win win)

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

lol what? How does verse equalization make the other guy percieve GER, what? Are we giving him Stand Energy? Does the guy's verse even have an energy system?

Like, verse equalization is pretty much just balancing energy systems, which we can't do here because neither party's verse has anything similar to eachothers, that they depend on, like at all.

Yes, that is literally how verse equalization works. How actually nonsensical would it be to argue Kumagawa cannot perceive stands? The same way nobody argues that in every Bleach match nobody can see Soul Reapers. I should not have to explain such an actual obvious fact, even more so when the link I sent explicitly states "Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion." Stands are without a shadow of a doubt a supernatural aspect of the Jojo verse. Genuinely what are we doing?

 

[Omegabronic]

It is never shown against someone with Kumagawa's degree of causality hax. So no, it is questionable.

His hax is irrelevant if what is being affected is his action of using it to begin with, can't fire a gun if a guy is holding your trigger finger

It is not shown being able to do this.

It can negate ALL actions... he has shown stopping death before, movement is not out of the ordinary

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Even if Kumagawa can’t get the upper hand and keeps coming back, it would be miserable and annoying for Giorno to keep killing him. In the end, this is in character for Kumagawa to make someone miserable and fed up with his existence. (Win win)

True, don't see how RTZ can kill Kumagawa.

 

[AmonInChains]

Was genuinely asking how it would be unaffected if MIH existed and did what it did is all

No, you didn't make a question, you directly made a statement from the start of the discussion, stop lying.

Also it can be argued to not even passively function against hax of a certain scale as obviously it didn't activate when Pucci used MIH.

The argument is not whether GER would curb MIH, it's what constitutes as a threat to activate RTZ. To which, the universe reset did not constitute as such, please stay on topic.

Now how it works in SBA with verse equalization.

Yes, that is literally how verse equalization works. How actually nonsensical would it be to argue Kumagawa cannot perceive stands? The same way nobody argues that in every Bleach match nobody can see Soul Reapers. I should not have to explain such an actual obvious fact, even more so when the link I sent explicitly states "Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion." Stands are without a shadow of a doubt a supernatural aspect of the Jojo verse. Genuinely what are we doing?

Not only the character does not have EP, but also Stand Invisibility is Layered, which is accepted to the Stands profile.

In order to see, touch or sense Stands, the character in question would need some form of enhanced Extrasensory Perception and enhanced Non-Physical Interaction, something above what ghosts can see, sense or touch. This is because not even ghosts or spirts can see or touch Stands, as seen with Reimi Sugimoto's interactions with Heaven's Door. Another instance where this happened, was when Mikitaka could not see Crazy Diamond, but was able to see and interact with Reimi Sugimoto.

So yeah, the whole issue in this thread is about actually reading the profiles.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

His hax is irrelevant if what is being affected is his action of using it to begin with, can't fire a gun if a guy is holding your trigger finger

Ok, and by that same example if I remove the very concept of guns then it doesn't matter whether you're holding the trigger finger or not. Trigger finger wouldn't even exist.

It can negate ALL actions... he has shown stopping death before, movement is not out of the ordinary

And yet is is never explicitly shown activating against someone who just moves.

 

[Omegabronic]

Even if Kumagawa can’t get the upper hand and keeps coming back, it would be miserable and annoying for Giorno to keep killing him. In the end, this is in character for Kumagawa to make someone miserable and fed up with his existence. (Win win)

Will is also returned to 0 btw, so even his desire to do it to begin with will be nulled, so he might simple lose the will to fight tbh

 

[Omegabronic]

Ok, and by that same example if I remove the very concept of guns then it doesn't matter whether you're holding the trigger finger or not. Trigger finger wouldn't even exist.

Yes... and that is impossible and the trigger to erase said concept is being held, thus it will simply never happen

You didn't covered the analogy well here at all

And yet is is never explicitly shown activating against someone who just moves.

Giorno can just... will it to do that, he is one controling the stand

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

No, you didn't make a question, you directly made a statement from the start of the discussion, stop lying.

Well it isn't a lie, it was always a question. I explicitly say it CAN be argued and was asking for a rebuttal with PROOF as to why the argument I laid out wouldn't be applicable. The entire time I was asking for proof.

Not only the character does not have EP, but also Stand Invisibility is Layered, which is accepted to the Stands profile.

If it's layered then why isn't it in Giorno's page?

So yeah, the whole issue in this thread is about actually reading the profiles.

It doesn't say that on the profile lmao.