Chaotic Demons of Change

[BoilingMold]

I am intentionally ignoring the Warhammer revisions soon to come so this can happen and be fair since I like both characters a lot.

A Woman of Change (Who has a rather consistently changing profile)

And a Man of Change (Who has a rather stagnant profile) face off.

Round 1: They battle at the top of Yokai Mountain during a full moon. Daemon Prince Magnus is used.

Round 2: They battle inside the warp, specifically inside Soritarius. In the warp Magnus rather obviously is used.



Who comes out fine in both fights?

 

[Orioreeem]

Isn't Magnus a tier 1 smurf? If so this is a stomp.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Magnus thinks and does like 5 dozed different things and also can't be hit

 

[BoilingMold]

Magnus thinks and does like 5 dozed different things and also can't be hit

Except both of them can just think and Yukari has non-physical interaction along with various ways to win too. Yes, Magnus has warp bullshittery, but Yukari has boundary bullshittery too.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Except both of them can just think and Yukari has non-physical interaction along with various ways to win too. Yes, Magnus has warp bullshittery, but Yukari has boundary bullshittery too.

Magnus has like 8 different forms of AE1. And 1-B hax period.

 

[BoilingMold]

Magnus has like 8 different forms of AE1. And 1-B hax period.

8...? I am not the biggest into chaos lore, but I am very sure Magnus does not embody that many things unless I am missing stuff that is Tzeentch related. I get 1b hax is big (soon to be 1-a, I think) but so is having one of the most versatile possible abilities and being very smart with the use of it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

8...? I am not the biggest into chaos lore, but I am very sure Magnus does not embody that many things unless I am missing stuff that is Tzeentch related. I get 1b hax is big (soon to be 1-a, I think) but so is having one of the most versatile possible abilities and being very smart with the use of it.

concepts, ideas, metaphors, contradictions and thoughts just to name a few. AKA Yukari can't hit him and he just thinks ONCE and instantly beats her. Magnus is the #1 smurf 2-C for a reason.

 

[BoilingMold]

concepts, ideas, metaphors, contradictions and thoughts just to name a few. AKA Yukari can't hit him and he just thinks ONCE and instantly beats her. Magnus is the #1 smurf 2-C for a reason.

Aren't concepts and ideas the same thing?
So, about that non-physical interaction mentioned, shouldn't it allow Yukari to have some degree of effect on Magnus? And what about the first round, or are you giving input on how round 2 would go only?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Aren't concepts and ideas the same thing?
So, about that non-physical interaction mentioned, shouldn't it allow Yukari to have some degree of effect on Magnus? And what about the first round, or are you giving input on how round 2 would go only?

No. You need interaction with ALL of the individual shit Magnus is to effect him at all. And the first round is the same thing, Magnus throws 5-D precog and thinks, erasing Yukari's concept. Magnus is the third strongest 4-B for a reason.

 

[BoilingMold]

No. You need interaction with ALL of the individual shit Magnus is to effect him at all. And the first round is the same thing, Magnus throws 5-D precog and thinks, erasing Yukari's concept. Magnus is the third strongest 4-B for a reason.

Huh...? I read back through the AE page and nothing says you need to be able to have an effect on each thing abstracted if multiple things are embodied. How does the D of the precog matter? Wouldn't it cause more issues than help for Magnus since he has to do it at the moment (Like Ahriman does) since it gives Yukari the slightest moment to come up with something to at minimum send Magnus back to the warp when Yukari's precog showed her just knowing what was going to happen in Subterranean Animism?

 

[Naito-desu]

Currently, Magnus should be a 1-A smurf given he's from Warhammer 40k, 5-D hax is currently just Warhammer Fantasy

 

[DaReaperMan]

Huh...? I read back through the AE page and nothing says you need to be able to have an effect on each thing abstracted if multiple things are embodied. How does the D of the precog matter? Wouldn't it cause more issues than help for Magnus since he has to do it at the moment (Like Ahriman does) since it gives Yukari the slightest moment to come up with something to at minimum send Magnus back to the warp when Yukari's precog showed her just knowing what was going to happen in Subterranean Animism?

Yeah. You need to effect em all. I've asked on the QnA board before.

Becuase it'd bypass any resistance Yukari might have.

Ah yes, the slightest moment to do... what, exactly? She can't hit Magnus, he can snipe from the Warp anyway, and if she hesitates in any way to do literally anything she's already dead because Magnus doesn't dick around. And even if he did she can't hit him regardless.

Currently, Magnus should be a 1-A smurf given he's from Warhammer 40k, 5-D hax is currently just Warhammer Fantasy

With like one thing lol, but with shit like precog it's 5-D scaling from you know who. The only thing 1-A about Magnus currently is immortality type 8.

 

[BoilingMold]

Yeah. You need to effect em all. I've asked on the QnA board before.

Shouldn't things like this be specified on the page?

Becuase it'd bypass any resistance Yukari might have.

I mean the precog's D... I get 1-b will get around stuff like madness manipulation resistance, but I don't see how that improves the precog unless there is resistance to it (Yukari lacks it but it's an example).

Ah yes, the slightest moment to do... what, exactly? She can't hit Magnus, he can snipe from the Warp anyway, and if she hesitates in any way to do literally anything she's already dead because Magnus doesn't dick around. And even if he did she can't hit him regardless.

Now I think a poster shouldn't give input on something they posted, but since it's mainly you and me discussing only so I will. Yukari could do stuff like boundary removal (I am very sure Magnus can't come back from this if the chaos gods just gave up before the Emperor erased Horus's soul), boundary of life and death (Do the Ynnead or Nightbringer method), boundary of true and false, or various other things (Funny thought when typing this even though it is massively NLF: Boundary of Slave and Master between Magnus and Tzeentch to repeat the perfect possession incident). Yukari isn't the type of person to hesitate when knowing who is being dealt with after all, especially in a serious situation.

She can't hit Magnus, he can snipe from the Warp anyway

This completely ignores the presented situation and I have no memory of a daemon doing any more than possession while in the warp (ok this does work). Hitting is one thing, doing something that could have effect is different (Like everything, Magnus has a defined boundary going off the context of Touhou lore, so reasonably, boundary manipulation use should work)

 

[DaReaperMan]

Shouldn't things like this be specified on the page?


I mean the precog's D... I get 1-b will get around stuff like madness manipulation resistance, but I don't see how that improves the precog unless there is resistance to it (Yukari lacks it but it's an example).


Now I think a poster shouldn't give input on something they posted, but since it's mainly you and me discussing only so I will. Yukari could do stuff like boundary removal (I am very sure Magnus can't come back from this if the chaos gods just gave up before the Emperor erased Horus's soul), boundary of life and death (Do the Ynnead or Nightbringer method), boundary of true and false, or various other things (Funny thought when typing this even though it is massively NLF: Boundary of Slave and Master between Magnus and Tzeentch to repeat the perfect possession incident). Yukari isn't the type of person to hesitate when knowing who is being dealt with after all, especially in a serious situation.



This completely ignores the presented situation and I have no memory of a daemon doing any more than possession while in the warp (ok this does work). Hitting is one thing, doing something that could have effect is different (Like everything, Magnus has a defined boundary going off the context of Touhou lore, so reasonably, boundary manipulation use should work)

"Beware that the abstract nature of different characters can stem from different sources (rumors, concepts, possibilities,...), as such, being able to affect a subtype of a category does not mean a character can affect all types of abstraction." Right from the explanation on-page.

It means Magnus can see shit across a 5-D plane and the like.

A) Emprah erased Horus so hard the chaos gods COULD NOT bring him back, and believe me they ******* tried.
B) Yukari literally needs to be a 1-A smurf to do ANYTHING with Magnus's soul as Tzeentch owns it and protects it.
C) Yukari does not have the NPI to hit Magnus, if she cannot effect concepts, ideas, metaphors, contradictions and thoughts via NPI she cannot effect Magnus in any way whatsoever with anything. If she is not accepted to have those NPIs, then this debate is over, because Magnus just makes it seem like she never even existed so hard the other youkai only get the funeral invitation until AFTER its over.

Then you've read less about 40K then even I have, cause let's just say, Daemons love to do shit in the warp, fight and the like, and Magnus, as the bitter motha ***** he is, has shit like concept erasure and BFR at a 1-B level, in fact all of his major hax are of that level, if you want to even suggest Yukari has any chance here, she needs to be a smurf of extreme proportions, considering every single Daemon primarch can trash other 1-B daemons via hax.

 

[BoilingMold]

"Beware that the abstract nature of different characters can stem from different sources (rumors, concepts, possibilities,...), as such, being able to affect a subtype of a category does not mean a character can affect all types of abstraction." Right from the explanation on-page.

It means Magnus can see shit across a 5-D plane and the like.

A) Emprah erased Horus so hard the chaos gods COULD NOT bring him back, and believe me they ******* tried.
B) Yukari literally needs to be a 1-A smurf to do ANYTHING with Magnus's soul as Tzeentch owns it and protects it.
C) Yukari does not have the NPI to hit Magnus, if she cannot effect concepts, ideas, metaphors, contradictions and thoughts via NPI she cannot effect Magnus in any way whatsoever with anything. If she is not accepted to have those NPIs, then this debate is over, because Magnus just makes it seem like she never even existed so hard the other youkai only get the funeral invitation until AFTER its over.

Then you've read less about 40K then even I have, cause let's just say, Daemons love to do shit in the warp, fight and the like, and Magnus, as the bitter motha ***** he is, has shit like concept erasure and BFR at a 1-B level, in fact all of his major hax are of that level, if you want to even suggest Yukari has any chance here, she needs to be a smurf of extreme proportions, considering every single Daemon primarch can trash other 1-B daemons via hax.

Ok it was just a minor misread. I don’t see how seeing events in a 5 dimensional plane is that special in this situation. If Yukari was 5d, then I would understand since without it, there would be issues and looking at anything.

A.2: Ok ok
B.2: I could just say to see above, however, I don’t see what’s preventing doing something to just send him back to the warp. It would count enough as winning in the single moment to send him back like any other daemon. If it was a completely irrecoverable way of killing him then I understand Tzeentch doing intervention. You can compare to sending back by damaging him to Logan sensing him back with his axe of khorne. Split him in half (See her AOCF Last Word) and he is sent back for a random amount of time.
C.2: This doesn’t mean boundary manipulation can’t get around this issue, and if you can lasgun a random daemon to “death” in the materium, I don’t see how this causes issues for round 1.

Concept erasure? Ok sure, nobody in Touhou has gotten around this but Junko, and it was self done. BFR? Boundary of Materium and Immaterium, exited (if she got sent off to Khorne’s part of the warp this would be different, but this is a servant of Tzeentch we are talking about). I understand hax allows daemons to defeat other daemons, but you just unintentionally said my reasoning for why this is fair and both have a chance and defeating each other. Yeah, Yukari is no smurf in the slightest, but this doesn’t mean no chance at all exists.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ok it was just a minor misread. I don’t see how seeing events in a 5 dimensional plane is that special in this situation. If Yukari was 5d, then I would understand since without it, there would be issues and looking at anything.

A.2: Ok ok
B.2: I could just say to see above, however, I don’t see what’s preventing doing something to just send him back to the warp. It would count enough as winning in the single moment to send him back like any other daemon. If it was a completely irrecoverable way of killing him then I understand Tzeentch doing intervention. You can compare to sending back by damaging him to Logan sensing him back with his axe of khorne. Split him in half (See her AOCF Last Word) and he is sent back for a random amount of time.
C.2: This doesn’t mean boundary manipulation can’t get around this issue, and if you can lasgun a random daemon to “death” in the materium, I don’t see how this causes issues for round 1.

Concept erasure? Ok sure, nobody in Touhou has gotten around this but Junko, and it was self done. BFR? Boundary of Materium and Immaterium, exited (if she got sent off to Khorne’s part of the warp this would be different, but this is a servant of Tzeentch we are talking about). I understand hax allows daemons to defeat other daemons, but you just unintentionally said my reasoning for why this is fair and both have a chance and defeating each other. Yeah, Yukari is no smurf in the slightest, but this doesn’t mean no chance at all exists.

Okay so now your wanking, misunderstanding how NPI works, and going against Magnus's profile.

A) you just said Yukari can come back from BFR that sends her to the Warp. You know, the place that at its lowest levels is 1-B as is accepted currently? I don't see 1-B range on her page.

B) everything worth their salt in Warhammer has the NPI to hit Daemons regardless of their AE1 that is active literally all the time. I guess Yukari isn't incorporeal because something can hit her now.

C) Magnus's profile dictates that as a Daemon he's ALWAYS AE1.

And now, let's talk about boundary manipulation, shall we? Boundary Manipulation needs to be proven to be able to hit concepts, ideas, metaphors, contradictions and thoughts. Separately. If you cannot prove each and every one of those are not only true AND accepted on the profiles, then no, Yukari cannot hit Magnus. The end.

Oh and don't even try to revise Magnus's profile "wait until Siege of Terra is done"

 

[BoilingMold]

Okay so now your wanking, misunderstanding how NPI works, and going against Magnus's profile.

A) you just said Yukari can come back from BFR that sends her to the Warp. You know, the place that at its lowest levels is 1-B as is accepted currently? I don't see 1-B range on her page.

B) everything worth their salt in Warhammer has the NPI to hit Daemons regardless of their AE1 that is active literally all the time. I guess Yukari isn't incorporeal because something can hit her now.

C) Magnus's profile dictates that as a Daemon he's ALWAYS AE1.

And now, let's talk about boundary manipulation, shall we? Boundary Manipulation needs to be proven to be able to hit concepts, ideas, metaphors, contradictions and thoughts. Separately. If you cannot prove each and every one of those are not only true AND accepted on the profiles, then no, Yukari cannot hit Magnus. The end.

Oh and don't even try to revise Magnus's profile "wait until Siege of Terra is done"

Ok I will admit I’m pushing this a little but never thought it’s going too far and I said myself I realize I misread the AE page which is what lead to the NPI misunderstanding. I thought it is fine to push the use of something there is almost nothing to be done about boundary manipulation besides use of the average psyker nulling (actively done kind anyone can do to a point it’s a tabletop feature) or literal divine intervention.

A.4: Yes, I did happen to say that it is possible to exit the warp without a 1B range. You know, the thing everyone but the Necrons and Tyranids do? It sounds dumb when adding in the range issue, but opening a way out like everyone can (to me at least) does not sound like wanking/pushing/going too far unless you specify she gets sent off to the impossible fortress or somewhere else in Tzeentch’s domain.

B.4: A Necron fractal edged weapon description has to specify it can hit daemon bodies and even pulling up a daemons data sheet (Search up Wahapedia.ru) says that only most weapons are useless. Wouldn’t suggesting an autogun can damage a daemon perfectly fine mean you’re now wanking based on what was just said, or is there something one of us is missing or maybe it’s just the Emperor blessing whoever is shooting a daemon?

C.4: Daemons temporarily get material form when leaving the immaterium. Material, they don’t remain immaterial at all times. In the warp this is different, outside of it, it isn’t. I don’t know if I’m missing something or misinterpreting but with this, I am certain that outside the warp the AE shouldn’t be a big issue.

Something I am fine with going with is that in the warp this is beyond a rag doll slapping but materially it should make sense that this would all work unless you want to do stuff like suggest a flamer can somehow interact with a pile of thoughts, ideas, concepts, contradictions, and metaphors. Now since the first thing Magnus does is (assuming taking fight seriously unlike against Logan) use (insert psyker power #♾) and the first thing Yukari (assuming actually trying) does is (insert boundary related thing #♾), it would make sense there is a chance. If you want to make an explanation past what can be summarized as “Magnus stares too hard” then sure it can be listened to, but right now you’re trying to suggest a big red man given material form can’t be affected by a purple woman but can be rammed by let’s say a land raider a few too many times then I have no idea whether I’m being biased or something is missing or this should’ve been waited on for revisions to Magnus (and everyone else) happening. Please feel free to correct everything you see wrong here but I kindly ask it is made clear. (As an off topic thing, should making a page for a Warhammer 40k character be waited on until revisions or should it just be done? The character in question is Szarekh the Silent King.)

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Ok I will admit I’m pushing this a little but never thought it’s going too far and I said myself I realize I misread the AE page which is what lead to the NPI misunderstanding. I thought it is fine to push the use of something there is almost nothing to be done about boundary manipulation besides use of the average psyker nulling (actively done kind anyone can do to a point it’s a tabletop feature) or literal divine intervention.

A.4: Yes, I did happen to say that it is possible to exit the warp without a 1B range. You know, the thing everyone but the Necrons and Tyranids do? It sounds dumb when adding in the range issue, but opening a way out like everyone can (to me at least) does not sound like wanking/pushing/going too far unless you specify she gets sent off to the impossible fortress or somewhere else in Tzeentch’s domain.

B.4: A Necron fractal edged weapon description has to specify it can hit daemon bodies and even pulling up a daemons data sheet (Search up Wahapedia.ru) says that only most weapons are useless. Wouldn’t suggesting an autogun can damage a daemon perfectly fine mean you’re now wanking based on what was just said, or is there something one of us is missing or maybe it’s just the Emperor blessing whoever is shooting a daemon?

C.4: Daemons temporarily get material form when leaving the immaterium. Material, they don’t remain immaterial at all times. In the warp this is different, outside of it, it isn’t. I don’t know if I’m missing something or misinterpreting but with this, I am certain that outside the warp the AE shouldn’t be a big issue.

Something I am fine with going with is that in the warp this is beyond a rag doll slapping but materially it should make sense that this would all work unless you want to do stuff like suggest a flamer can somehow interact with a pile of thoughts, ideas, concepts, contradictions, and metaphors. Now since the first thing Magnus does is (assuming taking fight seriously unlike against Logan) use (insert psyker power #♾) and the first thing Yukari (assuming actually trying) does is (insert boundary related thing #♾), it would make sense there is a chance. If you want to make an explanation past what can be summarized as “Magnus stares too hard” then sure it can be listened to, but right now you’re trying to suggest a big red man given material form can’t be affected by a purple woman but can be rammed by let’s say a land raider a few too many times then I have no idea whether I’m being biased or something is missing or this should’ve been waited on for revisions to Magnus (and everyone else) happening. Please feel free to correct everything you see wrong here but I kindly ask it is made clear. (As an off topic thing, should making a page for a Warhammer 40k character be waited on until revisions or should it just be done? The character in question is Szarekh the Silent King.)

daemons are creatures of concepts and narrative. They are more affective with things that have a lot of history hence power in the warp. Its why they are affected by melee and resist ranged attacks. You don`t need NPI to hit a daemon, you can do that with melee or "blessed items" but yukari doesn`t really go melee so it won`t matter

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ok I will admit I’m pushing this a little but never thought it’s going too far and I said myself I realize I misread the AE page which is what lead to the NPI misunderstanding. I thought it is fine to push the use of something there is almost nothing to be done about boundary manipulation besides use of the average psyker nulling (actively done kind anyone can do to a point it’s a tabletop feature) or literal divine intervention.

A.4: Yes, I did happen to say that it is possible to exit the warp without a 1B range. You know, the thing everyone but the Necrons and Tyranids do? It sounds dumb when adding in the range issue, but opening a way out like everyone can (to me at least) does not sound like wanking/pushing/going too far unless you specify she gets sent off to the impossible fortress or somewhere else in Tzeentch’s domain.

B.4: A Necron fractal edged weapon description has to specify it can hit daemon bodies and even pulling up a daemons data sheet (Search up Wahapedia.ru) says that only most weapons are useless. Wouldn’t suggesting an autogun can damage a daemon perfectly fine mean you’re now wanking based on what was just said, or is there something one of us is missing or maybe it’s just the Emperor blessing whoever is shooting a daemon?

C.4: Daemons temporarily get material form when leaving the immaterium. Material, they don’t remain immaterial at all times. In the warp this is different, outside of it, it isn’t. I don’t know if I’m missing something or misinterpreting but with this, I am certain that outside the warp the AE shouldn’t be a big issue.

Something I am fine with going with is that in the warp this is beyond a rag doll slapping but materially it should make sense that this would all work unless you want to do stuff like suggest a flamer can somehow interact with a pile of thoughts, ideas, concepts, contradictions, and metaphors. Now since the first thing Magnus does is (assuming taking fight seriously unlike against Logan) use (insert psyker power #♾) and the first thing Yukari (assuming actually trying) does is (insert boundary related thing #♾), it would make sense there is a chance. If you want to make an explanation past what can be summarized as “Magnus stares too hard” then sure it can be listened to, but right now you’re trying to suggest a big red man given material form can’t be affected by a purple woman but can be rammed by let’s say a land raider a few too many times then I have no idea whether I’m being biased or something is missing or this should’ve been waited on for revisions to Magnus (and everyone else) happening. Please feel free to correct everything you see wrong here but I kindly ask it is made clear. (As an off topic thing, should making a page for a Warhammer 40k character be waited on until revisions or should it just be done? The character in question is Szarekh the Silent King.)

A) and is done by either going into a section that's not really the warp(Eldar) is done through guidance and support from a 1-A mother ******(Empire), or the race doesn't even do the warp (Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, Tau, etc). Magnus sends thy ass to a 1-B section of the warp

B) most likely blessed or empowered, regardless this runs nicely into C...

C) I said it was what was accepted on Magnus's profile. not that it was correct. make any CRTs and you'll just be told "Wait until Siege of Terra finishes", frustrating? Apsolutely. Probably Needed? Yeah.

Sorry, not accepted, and... honestly no idea what Setsuna is talking about and I'd have to further research it-

Also I'm pretty sure @AbaddonTheDisappointment has a sandbox for The Silent King somewhere, but yes, you should 100% wait until 40K revisions are done and the 5 years for Siege of Terra to finish.

 

[BoilingMold]

daemons are creatures of concepts and narrative. They are more affective with things that have a lot of history hence power in the warp. Its why they are affected by melee and resist ranged attacks. You don`t need NPI to hit a daemon, you can do that with melee or "blessed items" but yukari doesn`t really go melee so it won`t matter

I see. Considering yokai have their part in history (lesser than everything in 40k), it should be sufficient to work.

 

[BoilingMold]

A) and is done by either going into a section that's not really the warp(Eldar) is done through guidance and support from a 1-A mother ******(Empire), or the race doesn't even do the warp (Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, Tau, etc). Magnus sends thy ass to a 1-B section of the warp

B) most likely blessed or empowered, regardless this runs nicely into C...

C) I said it was what was accepted on Magnus's profile. not that it was correct. make any CRTs and you'll just be told "Wait until Siege of Terra finishes", frustrating? Apsolutely. Probably Needed? Yeah.

Sorry, not accepted, and... honestly no idea what Setsuna is talking about and I'd have to further research it-

Also I'm pretty sure @AbaddonTheDisappointment has a sandbox for The Silent King somewhere, but yes, you should 100% wait until 40K revisions are done and the 5 years for Siege of Terra to finish.

A.6: I see now even though Orks use warp travel, although I wouldn’t put it past the same person who went down the infinite Eientei hallway to find the Eye of Terror part of the warp before the mental breaking and corruption kicks in since traveling around a 1B area isn’t doing pushing.

B.6: Probably something Mechanicus related I guess for the blessed part but empowered doesn’t tie in.

C.6: Whoever made the profile should’ve done specification but ok . At this rate the Siege of Terra finishing will take so much time 10e will happen before the books reach the aftermath.

I see then. Just wondered since I like Szarekh and didn’t know whether to wait or not. Now to open the 9e Necron codex some time tomorrow and figure out what additions could happen for the sci fi undead.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

I see. Considering yokai have their part in history (lesser than everything in 40k), it should be sufficient to work.

not really. Being an old person doesn`t help. Its all about symbolism

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Don’t think Yukari can bypass type 5 acausality. This is a stomp.