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Cooling and Cloud Calculations

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

@DontTalkDT

My apologies for disturbing you, but would you be willing to help Medeus with this despite your busy schedule?

@Executor_N0 @TriforcePower1 @Kaltias

Your help would also be very appreciated here.

Also, welcome back Kaltias. You can send me a PM if you are interested in getting back your old staff position here.
 
I'm not a physics major so take what I say with a grain of salt

but when it comes to freezing, the actual amount of energy used to make whatever ice structure they make can be that tier, but unless they're smacking people with it, it's a bit of an inaccurate tier to give a character

Take Todoroki for example. He swamped Sero, who has 9B dura, with an ice wall that's 7B, and Sero was literally uninjured. He was a bit cold from being encased in a massive ice structure, but he wasn't HURT. This scenario applies to literally every time Todoroki uses his ice in the series. He doesn't use 7B levels of power to hurt 7Bs, he only makes the structure to encase people in it. Yet people in VS threads with Todoroki in it are saying he 1 shots if his opponent is less than 7B since his ice is 7B, even though he literally only uses it to encase people

Sorry if what I'm saying is incorrect, I'm just confused
 
Mickey1940 said:
I'm not a physics major so take what I say with a grain of salt

but when it comes to freezing, the actual amount of energy used to make whatever ice structure they make can be that tier, but unless they're smacking people with it, it's a bit of an inaccurate tier to give a character

Take Todoroki for example. He swamped Sero, who has 9B dura, with an ice wall that's 7B, and Sero was literally uninjured. He was a bit cold from being encased in a massive ice structure, but he wasn't HURT. This scenario applies to literally every time Todoroki uses his ice in the series. He doesn't use 7B levels of power to hurt 7Bs, he only makes the structure to encase people in it. Yet people in VS threads with Todoroki in it are saying he 1 shots if his opponent is less than 7B since his ice is 7B, even though he literally only uses it to encase people

Sorry if what I'm saying is incorrect, I'm just confused
Click to expand...
It should probably be noted for the sake of accuracy that you should be looking at Todoroki's first key instead of his third in regards to his match with Sero. While Todoroki doesn't exactly incapacitate his opponents through physical blunt force he can technically just completely encase opponents in ice which should inpacitate those who don't have the power needed to break out of the ice which should be a fairly relevant problem for anyone who faces him considering the size of his ice structures, so that's what people are probably actually referring to when they say that he one-shots. The question here that would probably be relevant for the purposes of this thread is how exactly the energy he needs for the creation of his ice structures relates to the difficulty of countering or breaking free from his ice.
 
Nehz_XZX said:
It should probably be noted for the sake of accuracy that you should be looking at Todoroki's first key instead of his third in regards to his match with Sero. While Todoroki doesn't exactly incapacitate his opponents through physical blunt force he can technically just completely encase opponents in ice which should inpacitate those who don't have the power needed to break out of the ice which should be a fairly relevant problem for anyone who faces him considering the size of his ice structures, so that's what people are probably actually referring to when they say that he one-shots. The question here that would probably be relevant for the purposes of this thread is how exactly the energy he needs for the creation of his ice structures relates to the difficulty of countering or breaking free from his ice.
Click to expand...
8C Bakugo could blast his way through the ice structures no problem, and he was hit head on and didn't take any damage.

Even if you argue that Bakugo deflected it with his blasts, in the Joint Training arc, Shoto blasted the entire enemy team with ice, which didn't hurt or kill them either, and they are also 8C

And when people mean "one shot" they mean flat out kill in the context of the argument. Which makes no sense considering how the ice works.
 
Mickey1940 said:
8C Bakugo could blast his way through the ice structures no problem, and he was hit head on and didn't take any damage.

Even if you argue that Bakugo deflected it with his blasts, in the Joint Training arc, Shoto blasted the entire enemy team with ice, which didn't hurt or kill them either, and they are also 8C

And when people mean "one shot" they mean flat out kill in the context of the argument. Which makes no sense considering how the ice works.
Click to expand...
While that does say something about the general durability of ice walls Todoroki creates that doesn't seem equivalent to completely destroying his largest ice structures from the inside. It's also interesting to note that Heaven-Piercing Ice Wall ratings do not apply for Todoroki's durability on his profile. Do we actually have an established durability rating for Todoroki's ice?

I haven't actually read or watched My Hero Academia even if I have seen and read a few snippets but I'm pretty sure that Todoroki's Low 7-B rating is used for a single specific move which is the creation of a construct and that said rating wouldn't apply to any ice projectiles he makes. Other than that specific move Todoroki has a 7-C Attack Potency rating for his quirk which involves both his ice and his fire, so if you think that there is an issue with the scaling there, you'll have to make a separate thread for that.

The definition for one shots is defeating an opponent with a single attack which doesn't exactly say anything about killing, so incapacitating the opponent with an attack should count as well and Todoroki can technically accomplish exactly that by completely freezing his opponent over. I do agree though that the term one shot isn't really appropriate to use here since the connotiations of the term evoke the completely wrong image since Todoroki isn't punching or launching projectiles with his ice in cases like that.
 
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It's been 160 days since I've been told that DDM is working on a rebuttal. Over 250 days since we decided to postpone it to summer, because people would have time then.

I am sorry, but if I don't see anything soon, I'll have to assume that the rebuttal doesn't even exist and this is an attempt to let this thread die, which is just a huge no go. I know that people can be busy/tired of a topic, but this is ridiculous.
 
I just contacted DDM, seems like he is still having issues with his PC and he has work on other threads to do as well on top.

Also saying that this is a ploy to let the thread die is... really coming off as strong I should say.

So like I said, just wait. He will come back to this eventually. None of us have forgotten this thread.
 
As someone that has long since given up continuing the circle of arguments in this, since neither side will ever concede anyways, let me say that once DDM has finished his argumentation it probably is a good idea for both sides to summarize their arguments to be presented in a staff thread where the staff votes on it.

That's the only way this will ever reach a conclusion, because, as said, neither side is willing to accept the other's argument.
 
DontTalkDT said:
As someone that has long since given up continuing the circle of arguments in this, since neither side will ever concede anyways, let me say that once DDM has finished his argumentation it probably is a good idea for both sides to summarize their arguments to be presented in a staff thread where the staff votes on it.

That's the only way this will ever reach a conclusion, because, as said, neither side is willing to accept the other's argument.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

It's time to put this to rest.
 
Can you remind me what you think should be done here DontTalk? In terms of the main topic of conversation that is.
 
DontTalkDT said:
As someone that has long since given up continuing the circle of arguments in this, since neither side will ever concede anyways, let me say that once DDM has finished his argumentation it probably is a good idea for both sides to summarize their arguments to be presented in a staff thread where the staff votes on it.

That's the only way this will ever reach a conclusion, because, as said, neither side is willing to accept the other's argument.
Click to expand...
Anyway, I am personally fine with this suggestion.
 
Nehz_XZX said:
While that does say something about the general durability of ice walls Todoroki creates that doesn't seem equivalent to completely destroying his largest ice structures from the inside. It's also interesting to note that Heaven-Piercing Ice Wall ratings do not apply for Todoroki's durability on his profile. Do we actually have an established durability rating for Todoroki's ice?

I haven't actually read or watched My Hero Academia even if I have seen and read a few snippets but I'm pretty sure that Todoroki's Low 7-B rating is used for a single specific move which is the creation of a construct and that said rating wouldn't apply to any ice projectiles he makes. Other than that specific move Todoroki has a 7-C Attack Potency rating for his quirk which involves both his ice and his fire, so if you think that there is an issue with the scaling there, you'll have to make a separate thread for that.

The definition for one shots is defeating an opponent with a single attack which doesn't exactly say anything about killing, so incapacitating the opponent with an attack should count as well and Todoroki can technically accomplish exactly that by completely freezing his opponent over. I do agree though that the term one shot isn't really appropriate to use here since the connotiations of the term evoke the completely wrong image since Todoroki isn't punching or launching projectiles with his ice in cases like that.
Click to expand...
oh shit I completely forgot to respond to this. My bad.

The Ice wall's durability has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. The point is that his so called 7C ice isn't smacking people with a building of ice, it's merely the energy he produces to create said ice. Said energy doesn't interact with the victim it's affecting since, again, he's not smacking them with blunt force. That's like saying that creating a massive ice cage around someone is 7C and a regular human can't survive being trapped in an ice cage. Creating the ice cage requires energy, but the human isn't being hit with any attack.

And like I said, when people say one shot, they mean "Todoroki stomps his right foot and splatters people into blood popsicles", which doesn't make sense. You coul argue that Todo could 1 shot 7Cs via incapacitation, but he literally can't since 8Cs like Bakugo can blast though it no prob. So his 7C key isn't even combat-applicable.
 
Mickey1940 said:
oh shit I completely forgot to respond to this. My bad.

The Ice wall's durability has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. The point is that his so called 7C ice isn't smacking people with a building of ice, it's merely the energy he produces to create said ice. Said energy doesn't interact with the victim it's affecting since, again, he's not smacking them with blunt force. That's like saying that creating a massive ice cage around someone is 7C and a regular human can't survive being trapped in an ice cage. Creating the ice cage requires energy, but the human isn't being hit with any attack.

And like I said, when people say one shot, they mean "Todoroki stomps his right foot and splatters people into blood popsicles", which doesn't make sense. You coul argue that Todo could 1 shot 7Cs via incapacitation, but he literally can't since 8Cs like Bakugo can blast though it no prob. So his 7C key isn't even combat-applicable.
Click to expand...
Guys, this is veering into off-topic, leave that for a separate MHA-dedicated thread.
 
My overall point is that ice feats should not be listed as a certain tier if they are merely encasing people in large ice structures. I just used Todo as an example cause he was a good example of why this thread exists
 
Mickey1940 said:
My overall point is that ice feats should not be listed as a certain tier if they are merely encasing people in large ice structures. I just used Todo as an example cause he was a good example of why this thread exists
Click to expand...
Define large. What kind of large are we talking about? Because if this extends to making entire ice castles or massive building popsicles then it becomes quite problematic.

If it's merely encasing humans in ice and not fully freezing them to their smallest molecule, you could just, you know, calculate the volume of air frozen around them as if it were a second layer of clothing/skin/whatever.
 
Mickey1940 said:
oh shit I completely forgot to respond to this. My bad.

The Ice wall's durability has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. The point is that his so called 7C ice isn't smacking people with a building of ice, it's merely the energy he produces to create said ice. Said energy doesn't interact with the victim it's affecting since, again, he's not smacking them with blunt force. That's like saying that creating a massive ice cage around someone is 7C and a regular human can't survive being trapped in an ice cage. Creating the ice cage requires energy, but the human isn't being hit with any attack.

And like I said, when people say one shot, they mean "Todoroki stomps his right foot and splatters people into blood popsicles", which doesn't make sense. You coul argue that Todo could 1 shot 7Cs via incapacitation, but he literally can't since 8Cs like Bakugo can blast though it no prob. So his 7C key isn't even combat-applicable.
Click to expand...
Okay, that's alright.

Technically speaking a regular human can indeed not survive for long in an ice cage if the temperature inside it is as cold as it being an ice cage would suggest but I guess your point is that there is no kinetic energy from the ice construct that does any harm to the target. I think you could still argue here that creating ice or fire is how Todoroki fights and that the ratings for his profile would need to reflect this since the energy that goes into his ice is something that he can output but you would have to discuss the specifics of this in a separate thread like I mentioned earlier.

Well, I did say that the connotations of the term evoke the wrong image, so I can in fact agree here.
 
DontTalkDT said:
As someone that has long since given up continuing the circle of arguments in this, since neither side will ever concede anyways, let me say that once DDM has finished his argumentation it probably is a good idea for both sides to summarize their arguments to be presented in a staff thread where the staff votes on it.

That's the only way this will ever reach a conclusion, because, as said, neither side is willing to accept the other's argument.
Click to expand...
I think that the above solution is the most workable one here.
 
Anyone think we could implement some of this info in the References for Common Feats page?
 
KLOL506 said:
The References for Common feats page is for feats that happen commonly in fiction, this thread isn't about figuring out what types of freezing feats are common in fiction, this thread is about the validity of freezing calculations and its formulae as a whole.
Click to expand...
Doesn't the References for Common Feats page already have heating and freezing feats, tho? And shouldn't some of them be based upon the formula?
 
CreatorJoe said:
Doesn't the References for Common Feats page already have heating and freezing feats, tho? And shouldn't some of them be based upon the formula?
Click to expand...
The page does have fire and freezing feats, and they're using their respective formulae we already have on our wiki.

But again, this thread isn't about fire-related feats, nor is it about finding what temperature feat is common in fiction, it's mainly about the debate of whether cooling and cloud feats are applicable to AP or not and whether the formula we're currently using to calculate ice feats and cloud feats can be used to find AP or not, and whether or not they can be scaled to a character's other attributes. Scaling rules isn't necessarily something you apply to a Common Feats page.
 
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DontTalkDT said:
As someone that has long since given up continuing the circle of arguments in this, since neither side will ever concede anyways, let me say that once DDM has finished his argumentation it probably is a good idea for both sides to summarize their arguments to be presented in a staff thread where the staff votes on it.

That's the only way this will ever reach a conclusion, because, as said, neither side is willing to accept the other's argument.
Click to expand...
Let's return to the current main topic here.
 
KLOL506 said:
Define large. What kind of large are we talking about? Because if this extends to making entire ice castles or massive building popsicles then it becomes quite problematic.

If it's merely encasing humans in ice and not fully freezing them to their smallest molecule, you could just, you know, calculate the volume of air frozen around them as if it were a second layer of clothing/skin/whatever.
Click to expand...
In the example I gave, Todoroki swamped Sero with a building sized glacier, and Sero was merely cold and trapped. No molecular freezing involved. Yet Todo's ice is labeled as 7C AP and striking strength
 
Mickey1940 said:
In the example I gave, Todoroki swamped Sero with a building sized glacier, and Sero was merely cold and trapped. No molecular freezing involved. Yet Todo's ice is labeled as 7C AP and striking strength
Click to expand...
Todoroki's Ice only has the AP on his profile, striking strength is unknown. And he has separate durability against elemental attacks, durability separate from his physical durability.

As for whether the ice's AP value scales to his physicals or not, that would be covered by another topic entirely, universal power systems, which I don't see as something Todoroki has.

If a universal power/energy system exists, assume it scales to physicals. No universal energy/power system, rate the attack as separate from physicals, but no removing it. That's basically the main crux of this entire thread.
 
DontTalkDT said:
As someone that has long since given up continuing the circle of arguments in this, since neither side will ever concede anyways, let me say that once DDM has finished his argumentation it probably is a good idea for both sides to summarize their arguments to be presented in a staff thread where the staff votes on it.

That's the only way this will ever reach a conclusion, because, as said, neither side is willing to accept the other's argument.
Click to expand...
I believe this still stands.

DDM has yet to make his argumentation.
 
Don't mind me, just celebrating a late first anniversary of this thread, while also resubscribing, since I got unsubscribed from all my subscribed threads for the sixth or so time.

411DsD3MeOL.jpg
 
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