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No, he doesn't. Further, the fact that beings even above Mxy concretely do not see beings from the Orrery as fiction debunks this entirely.
Dimensionality =/= R>F
Yes, we've made a lot of progress in the last year or so
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Crisis Cosmology: Scaling Characters
- Thread starter Elizio33
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To be clear, we know for certain there is a type of real to fiction relationship past the Fifth Dimension (not that there has to be anything explicit to prove that, frankly, you just made that rule up). Alpheus for example had Mxy and Bat-Mite fight, then bring the entire comicbook into sketches, and describes that as a groundwork for his Multiverse, and thus, the Sixth Dimension views the Multiverse as a comicbook, which cannot just be attributed to just random circumstance considering the already accepted QS between both.
Also yes, to exist in any part of the Multiverse that you transcend, you have to adjust your frequencies to that realm, for example, the frequencies of the SoG make you an abstract, Low 1-C entity, and the frequencies of the Orrery make you a physical entity. This applies to the entire Multiverse as the Multiversity map shows.
Also yes, to exist in any part of the Multiverse that you transcend, you have to adjust your frequencies to that realm, for example, the frequencies of the SoG make you an abstract, Low 1-C entity, and the frequencies of the Orrery make you a physical entity. This applies to the entire Multiverse as the Multiversity map shows.
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No, we do not.
Every single other piece of information we have about the relationship between the Orrery and the Sixth Dimension contradicts this theory, which makes it extremely specious. The fact that the fight was portrayed that was is not indicative of any of the characters involved having R>F.
No, it doesn't. You don't gain infinite power boosts each time you move realms.
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Well yes, obviously being in the comicbook (i.e. the Multiverse) itself would not display any sort of R>F. That's where the other abundance of evidence where the Fifth Dimension has been displayed as having R>F over the lower dimensions come in (which I would gladly put in an imgur folder and show it here, if you deny their existence).
But I would ask, what type of contradictions between the Orrery and the Sixth Dimension exist that would imply that there isn't a level of R>F between them? I ask, because this is bordering on being a pretty moot argument eitherway considering we already accept a QS difference between them both.
Because you are not moving to realms, you are adjusting to their frequencies, that alone is a change in state.
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The multiverse is not "the comic book." It's just a multiverse.
QS is not the same as R>F, and after Ultima's revisions are instituted the Sixth Dimension would certainly not have R>F over the Orrery.
All of the interactions between characters from the Sixth Dimension and the Orrery demonstrate that they consider the Orrery real. Perpetua was meant to give her life in order for the multiverse to live, beings from the Orrery can and have fought her. The entire plot becomes nonsensical if you take the stance that Perpetua sees all of this as a work of fiction.
Frequencies are a physical concept. Several realms above the Orrery are not physical at all.
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This sort of already ignores that we accept the Fifth and Sixth Dimensions as having QS, though. So the problem isn't really in if these guys have shown some sort of transcendent attributes and powers, they have, we already accept that they have.
Also you have kind of made up the idea that the "plot becomes nonsensical" if 6-D entities view the Multiverse as fictional, several verses work creations being fictions or dreams and still have importance.
Also you have kind of made up the idea that the "plot becomes nonsensical" if 6-D entities view the Multiverse as fictional, several verses work creations being fictions or dreams and still have importance.
The Multiverse functions on something similar to string theory, everything vibrates in different frequencies, as seen with the Multiversity map explaining the vibrations of each realm, which entities have to adjust to, that includes things that are fully informational such as the Sphere of Gods.
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I already responded to that.
Not really, not in the way that the happenings of the multiverse are important to Perpetua. She gets her energy from what occurs in the multiverse. She also went around trying to convince people to choose doom and destroying universes one by one. If she was the author of a comic book why would she need to enter the Orrery in order to do that?
You're taking far more out of that than is actually implied or stated.
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You have not. But I take it that the "R>F is not QS" argument is supposed to be your response?
If so, it is, again, a very moot point eitherway. You would be using a "problem" on the potency of this transcendence to justify there being no transcendence at all. Even though we already accept that there is a sort of transcendence between these two realms.
As in, you want these characters (who have evidence of having R>F) to display superiority, when we already accept that they are superior in a sort of way.
No, not really. If each realm have an assigned mode of frequency, to exist in each of these realms is to adjust to that frequency.
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I don't agree on Kenshin's point on the entities of each realm. However, the realms themselves in their entirety do have R>F, and just the two realms(Fifth and Sixth). While Sphere(Gods and Monitors), Comicbook Limbo, etc are not.
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I don't get you.
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Not at all. I accept their transcendence despite the clear proof against R>F, rather.
Yeah, that's never stated anywhere and even the premise of that theory is speculative, so that's a no.
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I don't agree the entities from the realms have R>F but I agree the realms themselves do. That's not that hard to understand because the topic is about R>F.
Bastolan27
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If so, would you say that Prime Perpetua would have R>F over the Universe due to creating the 6th dimension (did she create it?) and the Source/Presence/Capital-G God, would have R>F over the fifth and sixth dimensions? I won't argue about R>F itself; just wondering about who would have it if it were true.
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I would doubt she made it since the only things that she specifically said she made were: The three forms of matter realms and her children to watch over them.
Given, the context, she had powers she long since remembered when she gained access to the Totality when Doom won despite only having enough power to only destroy one universe at a time. Not to mention, it would be a lot of processes before she can reshape the Orrery with enough fears and hope to fuel her tuning forks and help her gain Crisis Energy, which is a foreign power to her.
I would argue so, mainly on their position.
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Can u please write down all the characters that where affected by the changes? I'd like to view all of them.
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Darkseid (Post-Flashpoint)
Kalibak
Flash (Post-Flashpoint)
Wally West (Post-Flashpoint)
Highfather
Black Racer
Anti-Life Equation
Dream of the Endless
Orion (DC Comics)
Hecate (DC Comics)
The Upside-Down Man (DC Comics)
Mandrakk the Dark Monitor
The Thought Robot
The Monitors (DC Comics)
The Monitor
The World Forger
Anti-Monitor
The Ultra-Monitor
Perpetua
The Batman Who Laughs
Wonder Woman (Post-Flashpoint)
Doctor Manhattan
The Presence
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@Elizio33 You did this yet?
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Thanks alot fam.
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Not to all characters, but for Mxy yes.
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No problem
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Well, in particular I find it odd that we have the Hands at "1-B" but Perpetua at "Up to High 1-C." Perpetua is a member of the Supercelestials, so those pages should have the same tier.
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Yeah, I added a footnote on Perpetua's profile saying that it has been confirmed by WoG that Perpetua's stature has diminished in the hierarchy since she was imprisoned in the Source Wall despite being a member of the Hands, beings from outside the Source Wall.
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I don't believe that is sufficient to conclude that she is an entire level of infinity weaker than the rest of her species. It was also stated that Perpetua is the most feared of her brothers and sisters. But I also don't think the Hands have qualitative superiority to the Sixth Dimension, so I would advocate for that being removed altogether and for the Hands to simply be High 1-C.
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Been following this since the very beginning, I have little to no complaints.
This IS my problem. Honestly can't we just give her certain keys, like before fall and after her fall, or something like that.
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I agree, we know, Perpetua is a race of the Hands and other the Hands also the creators within the greater omniverse
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Perpetua being the most feared being of the Hands was probably before she was imprisoned in the Source Wall, before her stature was diminished. You may be right that Hands have no QS over the Sixth Dimension though. The 1-B rating came from them existing outside the Source Wall, at the "end of the void."
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Nothing else, I can help apply the notes thing later.
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Yes, but it's also hard to envision the Perpetua storyline as being functional wherein her entire plan was to rebel against the Hands and the rest of her species if the entire time she was essentially an infinitesimal speck to them, despite being a member of their race. Also, at the point in time when she began destroying universes she said that "all but a fraction of her power" had returned to her, meaning she was nearly full power.
I don't believe that is a sufficient basis to give an infinite level of power over the Sixth Dimension.
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Cough Nabu Cough
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My bad forgot about Nabu
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This can be changed.
What about:
The Hands
Attack Potency: High Complex Multiverse level (The Hands exists on a plane of existence outside the Source Wall, at the end of the void. Comparable to Perpetua's full might individually, although the former feared that if they came to find out about her actions, they would come for her and erase her and her multiverse from existence)
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That's fine, but I would remove "although the former feared that if they came to find out about her actions, they would come for her and erase her and her multiverse from existence" as it is not immediately relevant to their tier. Noting that they are comparable to Perpetua is sufficient.
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Read this
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Well I think it's worth adding because Perpetua really feared them and even felt the need to create an army to face them and there's this statement from the Darkest Knight saying that if Wonder Woman had continued to fight against him, the Hands would have come and would be more powerful than them.
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I already did. It says the Sixth Dimension is where multiverses are created, but comics says that the Sixth Dimension is where the MAIN multiverse was created and set in motion by Perpetua.
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Okay. I think it's a bit superfluous but relative to the extra level of infinity being removed it's a minor point, so that's fine with me.
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The Doctor Fate (Classic) profile is locked but I thought Doctor Fate was already revised to a Low 1-C tier in another thread? Unless I'm mistaken with the Post-Flashpoint version, but the Classic should at least be comparable or even superior.
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