Cthulhu Mythos Downgrade

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

I'll wait for a Ultima's response to Darksmash's last comment

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. This is ideal for discussions in this forum. It is very important to keep being polite to each other.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Yes. This is ideal for discussions in this forum. It is very important to keep being polite to each other.

Going by how strict the rules are with this wiki, i expected this to be a regular thing tho.

 

[Vietthai96]

it actually really hard to always keep a straight face and polite, some harsh and extreme action, or being emotional when it come to your favorite verse. We human is not a programed robot to be polite all the time, what matter is self-awareness and being mature, i'm also have some moment being extreme bias here and there like any other, it is normal though

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I am generally trying to protect longtime members who are usually productive and polite, but temporarily slip up, from being banned, as the longer people are here, the likelier it is that they will have a bad day sooner or later.

 

[ShivaShakti]

11-13 votes in the disagreement's favor. Still quite close.
As for the actual debate happening, it's still sorting itself out.

I actually went back and counted. Dark forgot to count one vote agree'ing with him

Currently the score (Including Ant and Kingpin since they both agree with Ultima, as well as all the new votes cast since)

12 in Agreement with the OP (Darksmash's side)

18 in Disagreement with the OP (Ultima's side)

Edit: Nvm he actually did go back and add the one he forgot it seems. Score is still 12 to 18 though.

 

[Abu2411]

Okay, I have FINALLY read through the arguments and I have to say that I agree with Ultima more. Count me against the downgrades.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Okay, I have FINALLY read through the arguments and I have to say that I agree with Ultima more. Count me against the downgrades.

Damn you actually read all of that? You're insane

 

[Abu2411]

Not gonna lie it took me a while. Some times I just losed interest after a few seconds and had to start from the beginning again.

 

[DivineAura44]

Damn you actually read all of that? You're insane

Are you asserting some people vote without reading it?

 

[ShivaShakti]

Are you asserting some people vote without reading it?

I wouldnt be surprised.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This, and the other quotes, don't exactly call them the "absolute last barriers".

They do: All they state is that the Ultimate Gate leads to the Last Void, and the First Gate, in turn, leads to the Ultimate Gate, so much that the latter's guardians reside just past the first barrier, and even Carter's return would likewise be through these two Gates, all of which makes it pretty obvious that they're the last sections of the cosmology that one reaches before plunging into the absolute.

Adding onto that, the dimensional gate which Gilman finds in Keziah's house would, by your logic, be the First Gate, since it leads to the dimensional plane immediately above the normal universe, and yet we do know that the location to which it leads is very different from the Outer Extension, since Gilman sees completely different things from what Carter does, and doesn't experience the act of becoming a composite of all his versions throughout space and time, nor the revelation which someone is supposed to have when going through that without direct assistance from 'Umr at-Tawil (Something which Gilman didn't have, considering his delvings into that place were explicitly independent and something he stumbled upon by pure chance, hence why he needed to make a contract wirh Nyarlathotep once they had gone too far)

And these also blatantly directly lead to the Ultimate Void :/ so how are they bound to a single space time continuum?

Yeah, and I'm arguing that they don't, to begin with. I say that they are bound to a single spacetime continuum because they are directly stated to be, and the context of the passages leads us to believe that even the higher-dimensional planes that are outside "the given space-time continuum" are just dimensional phases belonging to other space-time continuums:

Such a step, he said, would require only two stages; first, a passage out of the three-dimensional sphere we know, and second, a passage back to the three-dimensional sphere at another point, perhaps one of infinite remoteness. That this could be accomplished without loss of life was in many cases conceivable. Any being from any part of three-dimensional space could probably survive in the fourth dimension; and its survival of the second stage would depend upon what alien part of three-dimensional space it might select for its re-entry. Denizens of some planets might be able to live on certain others—even planets belonging to other galaxies, or to similar-dimensional phases of other space-time continua—though of course there must be vast numbers of mutually uninhabitable even though mathematically juxtaposed bodies or zones of space.

The "voids of sentient blackness" which Carter fall through aren't really suggested to be higher-dimensional spaces, either, and if anything are far more likely to be the ultimate void itself, given that the Hunting Horror carrying him reaches those regions after following specific directions given to it by Nyarlathotep, which led to a part of space where it was enveloped by "outer magic" and then brought past the realms of matter. Made particularly obvious by how it wasn't attempting to bring Carter to some random region of the outer void, but to the Court of Azathoth, which resides at the dead center of chaos:

“Then will the marvellous sunset city be yours to cherish and inhabit forever, and once more will earth’s gods rule the dreams of men from their accustomed seat. Go now—the casement is open and the stars await outside. Already your shantak wheezes and titters with impatience. Steer for Vega through the night, but turn when the singing sounds. Forget not this warning, lest horrors unthinkable suck you into the gulf of shrieking and ululant madness. Remember the Other Gods; they are great and mindless and terrible, and lurk in the outer voids. They are good gods to shun.
“Hei! Aa-shanta ’nygh! You are off! Send back earth’s gods to their haunts on unknown Kadath, and pray to all space that you may never meet me in my thousand other forms. Farewell, Randolph Carter, and beware; for I am Nyarlathotep, the Crawling Chaos!”
And Randolph Carter, gasping and dizzy on his hideous shantak, shot screamingly into space toward the cold blue glare of boreal Vega; looking but once behind him at the clustered and chaotic turrets of the onyx nightmare wherein still glowed the lone lurid light of that window above the air and the clouds of earth’s dreamland. Great polypous horrors slid darkly past, and unseen bat-wings beat multitudinous around him, but still he clung to the unwholesome mane of that loathly and hippocephalic scaled bird. The stars danced mockingly, almost shifting now and then to form pale signs of doom that one might wonder one had not seen and feared before; and ever the winds of aether howled of vague blackness and loneliness beyond the cosmos.
Then through the glittering vault ahead there fell a hush of portent, and all the winds and horrors slunk away as night things slink away before the dawn. Trembling in waves that golden wisps of nebula made weirdly visible, there rose a timid hint of far-off melody, droning in faint chords that our own universe of stars knows not. And as that music grew, the shantak raised its ears and plunged ahead, and Carter likewise bent to catch each lovely strain. It was a song, but not the song of any voice. Night and the spheres sang it, and it was old when space and Nyarlathotep and the Other Gods were born.

Faster flew the shantak, and lower bent the rider, drunk with the marvels of strange gulfs, and whirling in the crystal coils of outer magic. Then came too late the warning of the evil one, the sardonic caution of the daemon legate who had bidden the seeker beware the madness of that song.

And I've already explained that the excerpt describing the "blacker abysses" are very likely just referring to the ultimate void itself, especially since, like the case above, Nyarlathotep and the others were seeking to bring Gilman to the very center of the outer chaos, where Azathoth's Throne is, and not to some random area of it. The one piece of evidence suggesting otherwise is Gilman perceiving himself as traveling through "alien curves and spirals," which doesn't mean much when the text immediately states that they were traveling through some "ultimate blackness."

What? How? How does interpreting it as a skip imply there is stuff beyond the Ultimate Gate? We are still interpreting the Ultimate Gate as the last barrier.

Oh, my bad. I thought you were arguing that the "last obstacle" which Hypnos and his friend faced at the end of their travels (Which you also interpret as being the Ultimate Gate, it seems) was just some endpoint that they reached after travelling through a finite number of similar obstacles. Nevermind that.

It doesn't explicitly say that there are no more dimensions between the First Gate and the Ultimate Gate. They just aren't part of the system of Gates that Carter was crossing.

Your interpretation already requires them be part of that system, given that you are linking the dimensional gates that witches like Keziah could cross to the gates described in TtGotSK, and then equating that to "obstacles" that Hypnos and his friend passed through in their journeys, which are likewise described as aetherial barriers blocking passage to higher realms of existence. Even the final obstacle, which you interpret as the Ultimate Gate, is stated to be of the same nature as the previous ones save for the fact it's incalculably "denser" than they are, so that requires all of those things to be "Gates" of their own, too.

Just selectively nitpicking the buzzwords. We are also told that the Vacuas still contained elements of space and time, and "time being an illusion" was also merely translated to the characters not aging. Seriously, we aren't even talking about conventional time here. We are just talking about what happened in the story, in chronological order. They were clawing through the obstacles, and eventually hit one incalculably denser than the rest. That is a discrete jump, and makes total sense as no one would vainly climb an infinite hierarchy forever if they want to reach the top.

Nowhere is that suggested in the text proper, which simply says that they plunged into realms of greater remoteness than any which they had visited before, and rapidly clawed through several obstacles until they reached an endpoint. To suggest a "skip" to that endpoint would be to imply that they were suddenly transported there, or something of the sort, when it's made pretty clear that they just reached that point manually and by themselves. You're effectively suggesting something which the story gives no explicit indication of, and which is basically rooted on what makes sense exclusively to you, which, needless to say, is a very subjective matter.

Because the context of the story makes it clear what these "finite measures" are, giving examples of how civilizations fall in the time it takes stars to change, and how someone in a different location in the fractal hierarchy can experience hours or even millions of years from their perspective in a very short amount of time from the perspective of another location.

Yes, but the statement itself is pretty useless if you want to prove that the universes that comprise the fractal described in The Striking of the Gong are finite (Unless that's not what you mean by this), since, like I said, this statement is specifically in contrast to the fundamental (infinite) reality out of which everything is an illusory projection, so the logical conclusion of this would be the idea that there is nothing spatially or temporally infinite in the cosmology below the ultimate void, which is pretty obviously untrue.

How exactly does forming a "cosmic framework of different points where other celestial bodies may reside" exclude it from having a fractal type hierarchy? Correct me if I interpret it wrong but to me it sounds no different than saying "I don't think the universes should work that way, so any attempts to expand upon the implications of infinity(Like a repetition of fractals) would be irrelevant". Something which you might call "pure incredulity".

Because TDITWH itself makes it fairly clear that 3-dimensional space is a singular, continuous structure much like our own universe, instead of being some fractal that is only infinite due to being comprised of many finitely-sized universes, and this is made particularly obvious by how it is even referred to as "the known universe" at one point, which wouldn't exactly make sense if it actually included other universes that contain ours as well.

Perceiving any infinity as "finite" from a "higher infinity" is technically blatant counter context for the infinity not actually being "infinite".

Not on its own, no, especially if the structure being trivialized is explicitly described as infinite in extent elsewhere. Your only argument against that, as far as I see, is that we are not sure if the term "universes" is referring to the same thing across The Striking of the Gong and TDITWH, which is pretty silly to me, given that, as I showed up there, the known universe alone is what's being described as infinite-sized in the latter story, and the only thing remotely hinting at the fractal being comprised of finitely-sized universes is a statement from a completely different story which is just saying everything in existence is a finite projection of an infinite fundamental reality, and I believe I already explained the issues with that one.

2-3 is a lot, I would say.

In my honest opinion? No. Especially since "dimensional" on its own is really as much of a buzzword as "undimensioned" is, going by the train of thought you seem to be taking, and by far the most solid tidbit that you've brought up is the description of the "many-dimensioned original," which I believe has a fair amount of counter-context going against it, at least under the current way you seem to be interpreting the cosmology. Like you said above, I believe that we should evaluate these things based on what the evidence tells us of their logical standing, with those descriptions acting to further substantiate that.

Dimensionless=/=Being bigger than dimensioned spaces.

And, surprisingly enough, this alone is far from being the only piece of evidence that I'm using in this discussion. It's just something I'm using to discern where the First Gate is, hierarchically.

Where is the evidence that his perception was being manipulated after the stablization? Heck, I don't think it was being manipulated even before the stablization. That's quite blatant misunderstanding of the context of the story based on some buzzwords. Memory and Imagination were helping him "shape" some of the images from the chaotic scenery because the imagery there...well included what he already observed on the earth considering it was the dimensional extension of the earth itself. The only time he experienced pure cerebral impressions was when the entity "Carter" was taking shape.

I don't exactly need to show evidence of that when the text provides no established distinction between how he was perceiving things before the stabilization and after, beyond some brief mentions of him utilizing his eyes to see objects in that place, which don't really disagree with the idea that his consciousness was being directly altered in order to show him those images, especially since the latter is something the story explicitly tells us. The fact that Carter's view of the Outer Extension was also described as "a pageantry of impressions" is really just the icing on the cake, along with things like this:

There was another Shape, too, which occupied no pedestal, but which seemed to glide or float over the cloudy, floor-like lower level. It was not exactly permanent in outline, but held transient suggestions of something remotely preceding or paralleling the human form, though half as large again as an ordinary man. It seemed to be heavily cloaked, like the Shapes on the pedestals, with some neutral-coloured fabric; and Carter could not detect any eye-holes through which it might gaze. Probably it did not need to gaze, for it seemed to belong to an order of being far outside the merely physical in organisation and faculties.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by this but I am assuming you agree with me here?

I moreso meant that discussion of this excerpt just loops back to what we're arguing about up there, so, may as well not try to tackle it independently.

 

[InfiniteDay]

This took a ******* while to read. Anyway, agree with Ultima on this one.

Edit: ULTIMA ******* POSTED ANOTHER REPONSE

 

[DarlingAurora]

I agree with Ultima too.

 

[Pepsiman25th]

im sorta leaning towards the low 1-A/1-A but not entirely. i believe the archetypes should be high 1-A at the very best or maybe at least High 1-A, possibly 0

 

[Pepsiman25th]

put me at neutral as i have different thoughts of the revision. I may change my mind later on or say cthulhu mythos should be like DnD luminous being. 1-A, possibly high 1-A

 

[Darksmash]

They do: All they state is that the Ultimate Gate leads to the Last Void, and the First Gate, in turn, leads to the Ultimate Gate, so much that the latter's guardians reside just past the first barrier, and even Carter's return would likewise be through these two Gates, all of which makes it pretty obvious that they're the last sections of the cosmology that one reaches before plunging into the absolute.

Only the Ultimate Void is portrayed like that. Besides, if the First Gate was also part of the last barriers it would have been above the entire cosmology, instead it is only portrayed as being outside one earth/space time continuum unlike the Ultimate Gate.

Adding onto that, the dimensional gate which Gilman finds in Keziah's house would, by your logic, be the First Gate, since it leads to the dimensional plane immediately above the normal universe, and yet we do know that the location to which it leads is very different from the Outer Extension, since Gilman sees completely different things from what Carter does, and doesn't experience the act of becoming a composite of all his versions throughout space and time, nor the revelation which someone is supposed to have when going through that without direct assistance from 'Umr at-Tawil (Something which Gilman didn't have, considering his delvings into that place were explicitly independent and something he stumbled upon by pure chance, hence why he needed to make a contract wirh Nyarlathotep once they had gone too far)

Yea, the dimensional planes from TDITWH are not the same as the first gate, which included a time dimension as well. The only similarity between them is "Gates" that lead to higher dimensions. However, Gilman not becoming a composite entity doesn't have any relation to that. Gilman also went to the Ultimate Void without any of that, but that doesn't invalidate him going to the Ultimate Void.

Yeah, and I'm arguing that they don't, to begin with. I say that they are bound to a single spacetime continuum because they are directly stated to be, and the context of the passages leads us to believe that even the higher-dimensional planes that are outside "the given space-time continuum" are just dimensional phases belonging to other space-time continuums:

Considering the "vaster" abysses were stated to be "Blacker" relatively, while the Ultimate Void was stated to be the "Ultimate Blackness" in the same story, it seems very clear that the vaster abysses are even higher dimensions that eventually lead to the ultimate blackness. And the text never implies they must be bound to the space time continuum. It merely talks about an unknown number of higher dimensions in the space time continuum.

And I have no idea how you reach that conclusion in any way. The text was merely speculating how 3D beings would survive in various locations. It wasn't talking about higher dimensions beyond the space time continuum, but similar levels of dimensions in other space time continuums.

And I've already explained that the excerpt describing the "blacker abysses" are very likely just referring to the ultimate void itself, especially since, like the case above, Nyarlathotep and the others were seeking to bring Gilman to the very center of the outer chaos, where Azathoth's Throne is, and not to some random area of it. The one piece of evidence suggesting otherwise is Gilman perceiving himself as traveling through "alien curves and spirals," which doesn't mean much when the text immediately states that they were traveling through some "ultimate blackness."

I already explained why "Blacker" would contrast with "Ultimate Blackness"

Your interpretation already requires them be part of that system, given that you are linking the dimensional gates that witches like Keziah could cross to the gates described in TtGotSK, and then equating that to "obstacles" that Hypnos and his friend passed through in their journeys, which are likewise described as aetherial barriers blocking passage to higher realms of existence. Even the final obstacle, which you interpret as the Ultimate Gate, is stated to be of the same nature as the previous ones save for the fact it's incalculably "denser" than they are, so that requires all of those things to be "Gates" of their own, too.

The only link I made between them was being "Gates" to higher dimensions, the gates which Keziah crossed don't immediately have to be equated to the ones in TtGotSk, given the one in TtGotSK leads outside the space time continuum itself, while the Gates in TDITWH don't immediately lead to that. They can however still be interpreted to be part of the same system, with Carter's Silver Key shenanigans just making him take a very specific path through the system.

And I already talked about how the point of Vacua being called non material isn't relevant given how the Fungi directly demonstrate that Material properties exist across the entire cosmology, with non material likely just referring to Material of Alien and incomprehensible nature. Either that or material and non material stuff exist on every dimensional plane without having any role in defining the hierarchies.

Nowhere is that suggested in the text proper, which simply says that they plunged into realms of greater remoteness than any which they had visited before, and rapidly clawed through several obstacles until they reached an endpoint. To suggest a "skip" to that endpoint would be to imply that they were suddenly transported there, or something of the sort, when it's made pretty clear that they just reached that point manually and by themselves. You're effectively suggesting something which the story gives no explicit indication of, and which is basically rooted on what makes sense exclusively to you, which, needless to say, is a very subjective matter.

This isn't that far fetched though. The general layman is very likely to question the fact of someone reaching infinity from below, and the jump to infinity would logically require a discrete jump. We on this wiki just don't question it because of the extremely lax standards everyone here has with infinity, with most verses utilizing "infinite hierarchies" with a "top" always being given a free pass, even if said top can be reached from below without any special or significant algorithm. I don't see how this is a problem relating to my subjective view.

Yes, but the statement itself is pretty useless if you want to prove that the universes that comprise the fractal described in The Striking of the Gong are finite (Unless that's not what you mean by this), since, like I said, this statement is specifically in contrast to the fundamental (infinite) reality out of which everything is an illusory projection, so the logical conclusion of this would be the idea that there is nothing spatially or temporally infinite in the cosmology below the ultimate void, which is pretty obviously untrue.

That is not what the text is implying, no. The context is that in the face of infinity finite relative measures become useless. A human is just as irrelevant compared to infinite space as is a galaxy. Similarly a second is just as irrelevant compared to eternity as an year. These measures and distinctions are what is illusory. Not the infinity itself.

Because TDITWH itself makes it fairly clear that 3-dimensional space is a singular, continuous structure much like our own universe, instead of being some fractal that is only infinite due to being comprised of many finitely-sized universes, and this is made particularly obvious by how it is even referred to as "the known universe" at one point, which wouldn't exactly make sense if it actually included other universes that contain ours as well.

Being comprised of finitely sized hierarchies does not exclude the universe from being continuous. That just means that at some point on the size axis the cosmic objects just start repeating. Again, a very common theme of fractal type hierarchies.

Not on its own, no, especially if the structure being trivialized is explicitly described as infinite in extent elsewhere. Your only argument against that, as far as I see, is that we are not sure if the term "universes" is referring to the same thing across The Striking of the Gong and TDITWH, which is pretty silly to me, given that, as I showed up there, the known universe alone is what's being described as infinite-sized in the latter story, and the only thing remotely hinting at the fractal being comprised of finitely-sized universes is a statement from a completely different story which is just saying everything in existence is a finite projection of an infinite fundamental reality, and I believe I already explained the issues with that one.

Actually yes, even if a finite grain of sand included an infinite space, you would still only need the same infinity of these grains of sands to fill the higher level universe, so yes it would still just be a multiplicative factor of the exact same infinity, especially considering you agreed that the higher universes operate just like the lower universes on their own level.

That too, yes.

and what does that imply?

Yes, and the entire point was that the terms used in this story don't have to correspond to the terms used by lovecraft in other stories. And it's not just one statement. It's also the entire context and philosophy of said story.

In my honest opinion? No. Especially since "dimensional" on its own is really as much of a buzzword as "undimensioned" is, going by the train of thought you seem to be taking, and by far the most solid tidbit that you've brought up is the description of the "many-dimensioned original," which I believe has a fair amount of counter-context going against it, at least under the current way you seem to be interpreting the cosmology. Like you said above, I believe that we should evaluate these things based on what the evidence tells us of their logical standing, with those descriptions acting to further substantiate that.

If I am interpreting this correctly, then yes I agree. The overall context should take priority over the more detailed descriptions of any realm. And the context in TTGOTSK is very clear I would say, with every part of the cosmology being cut off from some relatively higher dimension, and the small wholeness being treated as the "Many Dimensioned original' and "Dimensional extension" from which the 3 dimensional phase is cut off.

And, surprisingly enough, this alone is far from being the only piece of evidence that I'm using in this discussion. It's just something I'm using to discern where the First Gate is, hierarchically.

Well, like we discussed above, you also seem to agree that the overall context should be given priority to interpret the hierarchies.

I don't exactly need to show evidence of that when the text provides no established distinction between how he was perceiving things before the stabilization and after, beyond some brief mentions of him utilizing his eyes to see objects in that place, which don't really disagree with the idea that his consciousness was being directly altered in order to show him those images, especially since the latter is something the story explicitly tells us. The fact that Carter's view of the Outer Extension was also described as "a pageantry of impressions" is really just the icing on the cake, along with things like this:

The only time cerebral images were involved in context was when the entity Carter was taking shape, which involved disconnecting all the images in Carter's brain(which represent his life) from their terrestrial surroundings, the only other time it is mentioned was when memory and imagination were helping him make sense of the shapes from the chaos, which honestly to me seems more likely just a flowery way to say he was just making sense of his surroundings from his memory and imagination. However, I guess this discussion would be secondary to primary context, given how if we assume the reality surrounding was providing him with the images that would equally invalidate all the detailed descriptions of the realm.

"a pageantry of impressions" doesn't really invalidate anything though, given how the human life is also described in the same way. A bunch of images in the brain. It just becomes more significant in higher dimensional realms where the human only has himself to rely on to make sense of things their minds aren't supposed to make sense of.

Also that last part actually provides more arguments in my favour, considering it confirms the conception of visual imagery directly exists in the Outer Extension(Just that the beings that Carter encountered didn't need those functions in place of some higher senses) which would make sense considering human eyes can only provide 2D images of a 3D world. You would need something of higher quality to observe a higher dimensional location properly.

 

[Darksmash]

Well it seems this thread is likely to be rejected given the high number of disagrees

 

[Lapsad]

Well it seems this thread is likely to be rejected given the high number of disagrees

Not yet , your arguments is also reasonable.

 

[Pepsiman25th]

Not yet , your arguments is also reasonable.

that is why im staying neutral. i sorta have my own ideas
i somewhat agree to the downgrade but also disagree with how it is. i just personally think high 1-A sounds better for the archetypes

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

I will also stay neutral lol. Tho i lean towards agree.

 

[MrGrey385]

Woow, that's a huge wall of text. I am against downgrade.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Hm. I know nobody likes me commenting on Cthulhu stuff, but this ruffles my jimmies. Short version: I disagree with a downgrade.

I'll be happy to talk about why, if anyone wants, but you can just check my blog, which covers some of what I would say anyway.

Now...while I don't really want to downgrade, I do think changes are in order. Randolph Carter becoming a "god" is a strange interpretation at best and weird headcanon at worst. Ithaqua should be added to the Mythos page because it was created during Lovecraft's lifetime and there was a collaboration between H.P. Lovecraft and Ithaqua's creator, August Derleth. Lovecraft's name doesn't appear on the story like it did the accepted Ghatanothoa, but given that Robert E. Howard's stories are apparently allowed as evidence for the Mythos because of the relationship between the two authors, there isn't any reason to deny Ithaqua. Except for rampant dislike for Derleth, I mean.

Anyway, if there's a specific sticking point, please let me know. Or don't, whatever. I'm working my way through everything but, well, there's a lot of back and forth and I have trouble keeping it all straight sometimes.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Hm. I know nobody likes me commenting on Cthulhu stuff, but this ruffles my jimmies. Short version: I disagree with a downgrade.

I'll be happy to talk about why, if anyone wants, but you can just check my blog, which covers some of what I would say anyway.

Now...while I don't really want to downgrade, I do think changes are in order. Randolph Carter becoming a "god" is a strange interpretation at best and weird headcanon at worst. Ithaqua should be added to the Mythos page because it was created during Lovecraft's lifetime and there was a collaboration between H.P. Lovecraft and Ithaqua's creator, August Derleth. Lovecraft's name doesn't appear on the story like it did the accepted Ghatanothoa, but given that Robert E. Howard's stories are apparently allowed as evidence for the Mythos because of the relationship between the two authors, there isn't any reason to deny Ithaqua. Except for rampant dislike for Derleth, I mean.

Anyway, if there's a specific sticking point, please let me know. Or don't, whatever. I'm working my way through everything but, well, there's a lot of back and forth and I have trouble keeping it all straight sometimes.

Thought we already addressed this when you came onto my wall but whatever.

Best to keep on topic with the thread and its original content anyways.

 

[Loyd]

Well it seems this thread is likely to be rejected given the high number of disagrees

I always root for the underdog, this is too much text for me but u can change thr minds i believe in you.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Well currently the number of disagrees outnumber the ones who agree by 10.

Do we call it here or do we keep going? Usually grace gets called around the time votes reach a majority by seven, unless its different for CRT's.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I don't think both sides are done with their arguments yet

 

[Tam0n3n]

both sides are so confident in their points, it's literally impossible for an outsider like me to agree or disagree with. I'm neutral for now

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Thought we already addressed this when you came onto my wall but whatever.

Best to keep on topic with the thread and its original content anyways.

Wow, why are you being such a colossal tool? You and Ultima dismissed what I was trying to discuss, not change, discuss out of hand. You basically gave your reasons for why things are the way they are and told me everything I brought up was wrong or headcanon. This despite the fact that this is literally the only place I can find that claims the Archetypes are somehow the ultimate level of the Ultimate Gods, that Randolph Carter became a godlike being, that Hypnos breached the Ultimate Gate, and so much personal interpretation and selective evidence that you don't want to discuss because apparently bringing alternate ideas to the table is somehow me actually ignoring the possibility of other interpretations. Pot, meet kettle.

Your personal version of the Mythos only exists here because @Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot retired and you stepped into the role of Cthulhu Mythos "experts," changing a whole lot without much resistance. So, no, we did not "address" anything. Neither of you responded to my last reply, and just decided to be done. The fact of the matter is that you are being hypocritical about what's considered "canon" here and turning every attempt to discuss it into a miserable mire of stonewalling, self-aggrandizing, and petty bullshit.

And you know what? I did actually write up a big thing directly about this topic but decided not to include it because I knew I was going to catch flak from you. I don't really care anymore. So, here's what I think about the topic at hand:

Cthulhu Mythos reaches Outerversal realms with 1-A to 0 level characters. The First Gate(s) connect the infinite multiverse, an ever-escalating series of complex dimensions that reaches an archetypal infinity, with the Outer Extension beyond the First Gate that is beyond all confines of space, time, matter, and energy that exists in dimensional space. All of dimensional space is considered to be a "small wholeness" completely embodied by the First Gate, which would make the Outer Extension Outerversal by virtue of being outside the concept of dimensions completely. We also know that every dimension has its own First Gate, as illustrated when Carter looks back after crossing the First Gate and sees an infinite multiplicity of Gates. The beings that reside in the Outer Extension, especially the Guardian of the Ultimate Gate, 'Umr at-Tawill, are said to be more powerful and terrifying than anything that comes before the Gate and the terrible darkness of the void. The difference between the two sides of the Ultimate Gate is infinitely vaster than the difference between the planes on either side of the First Gate, such that beings which could easily be declared Gods by their power alone are less than subatomic particles in the Ultimate Void/Ultimate Chaos.

When Yog-Sothoth interacts with Carter, Carter realizes that the descriptions of the being and even the idea of what Yog-Sothoth is absolutely pale in comparison to the actual God itself. Yog-Sothoth is the Supreme Archetype, from which all other Archetypes are drawn. Now, to be an archetype is to be the origin of something that is iterated on in copies or derivatives. Yog-Sothoth is the Supreme Archetype, which points to it being the Supreme God of the Mythos. This is supported by the fact that Yog-Sothoth is the most active (apart from Nyarlathotep, perhaps) of the Ultimate Gods, being the root cause of The Dunwich Horror, Carter's ultimate goal in Through the Gates of the Silver Key, and being the God that Cthulhu venerates in his role of Priest, not to mention the various societies and species that worship it. Azathoth is only really described in one short story, and that said description comes from one of the few species that actually worship it, making it a bit dubious to consider Azathoth the ruler of the Outer Gods based solely on their word. I'm not arguing that Azathoth isn't almighty, just that he isn't the "God of Gods" of the Cthulhu Mythos, aka Yog-Sothothery.

Finally, a bit off-topic, but Randolph Carter does not become a God or Tier 1 being. Yes, he has ascended to a higher plane of existence, but all that really gave him was an awareness about the true nature of existence, the repeating Archetypes throughout time and space, and the fact that there is an infinite number of Carter's archetypes that are all intrinsically him yet unique and distinguished from each other. Crucially, though, Carter lacks the ability to truly interact with his other selves, and it is Yog-Sothoth that puts him in any body of his choosing. Yog-Sothoth warns Carter that he must memorize the necessary spells and prep in order to switch bodies on his own or return to his primary body. Carter arrogantly believes that just possessing the Silver Key would be enough and ends up trapped in the alien Zkauba. A God wouldn't need to worry about small things like those rituals, or at the very least would be able to consistently overpower the lesser mind of the non-ascended being Carter resides in. He has demonstrated no actions or feats that would put him at 1-A; simply being aware of the truth of his own existence, its extensions, and its ultimate source does not make him a God by default.

And since no one is going to read this anyway, Ithaqua should be added to the profiles of the Mythos. It meets whatever requirements that allow Robert E. Howard's work to be used as supporting evidence of repeated patterns, histories, or beings in Lovecraft's work. I understand Derleth is not the most popular Mythos writer, but he was close friends with Lovecraft and created the character (with some collaboration between the two, just not to the point where Lovecraft is noted as a co-creator) while Lovecraft was still alive and kept it relatively true to Lovecraft's ideas. It was only after Lovecraft's death that Derleth tried to turn the Mythos into a more black-and-white setting with identifiable heroes and villains. If Robert E. Howard counts as a credible source because he and Lovecraft used elements of each other's stories, as well as being friends who kept in touch, then Derleth's Ithaqua meets that standard. Ithaqua is a great addition to the Mythos and it's a shame he isn't given his proper due here.

TL;DR - I disagree with a Mythos downgrade but I think there are other ideas that should be changed or at the very least discussed.

 

[Darksmash]

Carter does become a higher dimensional being though, very explicitly. He becomes more and more of a composite being on his journey.(Well technically those already existed so I guess calling it just additional awareness may make sense?) And the small wholeness is blatantly called "Many Dimensioned" so....

 

[Udlmaster]

Wow, why are you being such a colossal tool?

 

[ShivaShakti]

Wow, why are you being such a colossal tool?

I genuinely do not see what this little outburst has to do with the thread at hand. I simply asked "Hey lets keep it on topic, this was already talked about", and you decided to respond with a long winded tangent which only serves to derail the original topic even more. So once more, I will rephrase it crystal clear for you.

Let's focus on the thread please, and not argue over things that the OP himself hasn't brought up.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

I genuinely do not see what this little outburst has to do with the thread at hand. I simply asked "Hey lets keep it on topic, this was already talked about", and you decided to respond with a long winded tangent which only serves to derail the original topic even more. So once more, I will rephrase it crystal clear for you.

Let's focus on the thread please, and not argue over things that the OP himself hasn't brought up.

How is presenting information in support of the argument that the Mythos shouldn't be downgraded off topic?

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Classy.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Snip of the rant

That was completely unnecessary, and seemed to dive into a personal area, I'm not in any sort of mod position but please, save that for the message walls.

As for your refute to the op itself, it was mostly covered by Darksmash already, this was practically a repeat of what was being said by Ultima, but it the same conversation being held between the latter and the former. Perhaps wait for those two if you're going to not bring up new material (without scans as well).

Stuff about Ithaqua being added to the mythos page

This may come off as rude but this is completely irrelevant to the thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Cthulhu Mythos reaches Outerversal realms with 1-A to 0 level characters. The First Gate(s) connect the infinite multiverse, an ever-escalating series of complex dimensions that reaches an archetypal infinity, with the Outer Extension beyond the First Gate that is beyond all confines of space, time, matter, and energy that exists in dimensional space. All of dimensional space is considered to be a "small wholeness" completely embodied by the First Gate, which would make the Outer Extension Outerversal by virtue of being outside the concept of dimensions completely. We also know that every dimension has its own First Gate, as illustrated when Carter looks back after crossing the First Gate and sees an infinite multiplicity of Gates. The beings that reside in the Outer Extension, especially the Guardian of the Ultimate Gate, 'Umr at-Tawill, are said to be more powerful and terrifying than anything that comes before the Gate and the terrible darkness of the void. The difference between the two sides of the Ultimate Gate is infinitely vaster than the difference between the planes on either side of the First Gate, such that beings which could easily be declared Gods by their power alone are less than subatomic particles in the Ultimate Void/Ultimate Chaos.

When Yog-Sothoth interacts with Carter, Carter realizes that the descriptions of the being and even the idea of what Yog-Sothoth is absolutely pale in comparison to the actual God itself. Yog-Sothoth is the Supreme Archetype, from which all other Archetypes are drawn. Now, to be an archetype is to be the origin of something that is iterated on in copies or derivatives. Yog-Sothoth is the Supreme Archetype, which points to it being the Supreme God of the Mythos. This is supported by the fact that Yog-Sothoth is the most active (apart from Nyarlathotep, perhaps) of the Ultimate Gods, being the root cause of The Dunwich Horror, Carter's ultimate goal in Through the Gates of the Silver Key, and being the God that Cthulhu venerates in his role of Priest, not to mention the various societies and species that worship it. Azathoth is only really described in one short story, and that said description comes from one of the few species that actually worship it, making it a bit dubious to consider Azathoth the ruler of the Outer Gods based solely on their word. I'm not arguing that Azathoth isn't almighty, just that he isn't the "God of Gods" of the Cthulhu Mythos, aka Yog-Sothothery.

Finally, a bit off-topic, but Randolph Carter does not become a God or Tier 1 being. Yes, he has ascended to a higher plane of existence, but all that really gave him was an awareness about the true nature of existence, the repeating Archetypes throughout time and space, and the fact that there is an infinite number of Carter's archetypes that are all intrinsically him yet unique and distinguished from each other. Crucially, though, Carter lacks the ability to truly interact with his other selves, and it is Yog-Sothoth that puts him in any body of his choosing. Yog-Sothoth warns Carter that he must memorize the necessary spells and prep in order to switch bodies on his own or return to his primary body. Carter arrogantly believes that just possessing the Silver Key would be enough and ends up trapped in the alien Zkauba. A God wouldn't need to worry about small things like those rituals, or at the very least would be able to consistently overpower the lesser mind of the non-ascended being Carter resides in. He has demonstrated no actions or feats that would put him at 1-A; simply being aware of the truth of his own existence, its extensions, and its ultimate source does not make him a God by default.

And since no one is going to read this anyway, Ithaqua should be added to the profiles of the Mythos. It meets whatever requirements that allow Robert E. Howard's work to be used as supporting evidence of repeated patterns, histories, or beings in Lovecraft's work. I understand Derleth is not the most popular Mythos writer, but he was close friends with Lovecraft and created the character (with some collaboration between the two, just not to the point where Lovecraft is noted as a co-creator) while Lovecraft was still alive and kept it relatively true to Lovecraft's ideas. It was only after Lovecraft's death that Derleth tried to turn the Mythos into a more black-and-white setting with identifiable heroes and villains. If Robert E. Howard counts as a credible source because he and Lovecraft used elements of each other's stories, as well as being friends who kept in touch, then Derleth's Ithaqua meets that standard. Ithaqua is a great addition to the Mythos and it's a shame he isn't given his proper due here.

TL;DR - I disagree with a Mythos downgrade but I think there are other ideas that should be changed or at the very least discussed.

@Ultima_Reality

What do you think about the above analysis?

 

[Antvasima]

In any case, everybody please stop with the insults back and forth. They also hurt the rest of your arguments.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

First off...sorry, everyone. I got a bit triggered and acted like a petulant man child. It was wholly inappropriate and I apologize. And specifically, sorry @ShivaShakti. I shouldn't have acted the way I did and blown up at you. There isn't any excuse for that kind of immaturity and I apologize.

Carter does become a higher dimensional being though, very explicitly. He becomes more and more of a composite being on his journey.(Well technically those already existed so I guess calling it just additional awareness may make sense?) And the small wholeness is blatantly called "Many Dimensioned" so....

Oh, I agree hat Carter does become a higher-level being, though maybe saying he's "awakened" to the full truth of his existence would be more accurate. I just don't think he displays anything that could be interpreted as 1-A, unless you really want to say he's more powerful than Hynos by virtue of not being utterly annihilated upon passing the First Gate. I just don't think that logic works, though, because 'Umr at-Tawill/Yog-Sothoth are clearly acting on his behalf, essentially inviting him into their domain and interacting with him.

As for the "small wholeness" being many-dimensioned...yeah. Did I (unintentionally) indicate otherwise? What are you referring to or trying to tell me with that? Genuinely asking. Because I thought I did explicitly say that the "small wholeness" mentioned in TtGotSK is all of dimensioned/angled/physical space, and that it's an infinite succession of space-time planes operating with physical laws. Are you trying to say that this fact supports a downgrade of the verse? I'm just a little confused about your purpose in bringing it up...

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but part of your issue with the current tiring of the verse is that it's basically all dimensional tiering without much in the way of feats to back it up, correct? Or am I misinterpreting/missing your intent?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

What do you think about the above analysis?

Reading through it, it mostly seems to be a repeat of what I already said on this thread before, like Guardian Doge pointed out, and which I admitedly take some issue with now that I thought about it a bit further. I'll probably elaborate on that in a bit, after I finish doing some things IRL.

 

[Udlmaster]

Classy.

I am extremely based.