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Culex: Back to Low 2-C
- Thread starter DatOneWeeb
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- bowser culex mario mario bros
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Well... What do you think the quote means? The quote gotta mean something.
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I went into it in an earlier detailed post.
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- Thread starter
- #165
Alright so I still gotta wait for Sera, so for now I will make a counter to the general arguments. First off being Matt "arguing" the statements themselves.
Matt, what you did was nitpick each statement to death. Asking a question for every minor detail was the equivalent of asking for a visual scan. Asking questions like "Can we get a timeframe? How do they do it? What attack? Does it scale physically?" That's a loophole you made so I wouldn't have an answer when you full on know it's a statement. If someone says "I have the power to destroy all of time and space", statement only, me asking "How do they do it? Timeframe? Does it scale?" is asking for a visual feat. That statement should be obvious on what they meant, but nitpicking for every minor detail just invalidates basically any type of statement. So you never argued the statements, you made a loophole to start from scratch.
When Culex is referring to all of time, he is NOT referring to anything 2-D related. I've already explained why 2-D wasn't a thing at all. Hell, he calls the power of the 3rd dimension to be of "Love, friendship, joy".
Consuming time should be an obvious Low 2-C feat. Consuming would mean destroy, especially since right after Culex says "And I will consume you!" and proceeds to fight you. Not sure anymore context is needed.
Then there's text between both. People will use stuff like the Pokemon thread as an example. The issue? The Pokemon's text from English and Japan were nothing alike and had no connections. Culex's does. They're related. Are we gonna translate every media from Japan to its original source? Seriously, nothing Culex says in English is contradicted by the original source. It isn't a name change, it isn't a different implication in power, etc.
Culex stating to have power over all of creation can stand for reality, and not just simple creation (ergo insert creation feats). Inheriting time is the same as say, taking over it. Since the synonyms for inherit are "take over, acquire, obtain, derive" etc. So he has power over time and creation. One of the ways to be allowed for Low 2-C is if you have the power to affect time and space. Culex has power over reality? Culex has the power to take over time? It checks out.
Matt, what you did was nitpick each statement to death. Asking a question for every minor detail was the equivalent of asking for a visual scan. Asking questions like "Can we get a timeframe? How do they do it? What attack? Does it scale physically?" That's a loophole you made so I wouldn't have an answer when you full on know it's a statement. If someone says "I have the power to destroy all of time and space", statement only, me asking "How do they do it? Timeframe? Does it scale?" is asking for a visual feat. That statement should be obvious on what they meant, but nitpicking for every minor detail just invalidates basically any type of statement. So you never argued the statements, you made a loophole to start from scratch.
When Culex is referring to all of time, he is NOT referring to anything 2-D related. I've already explained why 2-D wasn't a thing at all. Hell, he calls the power of the 3rd dimension to be of "Love, friendship, joy".
Consuming time should be an obvious Low 2-C feat. Consuming would mean destroy, especially since right after Culex says "And I will consume you!" and proceeds to fight you. Not sure anymore context is needed.
Then there's text between both. People will use stuff like the Pokemon thread as an example. The issue? The Pokemon's text from English and Japan were nothing alike and had no connections. Culex's does. They're related. Are we gonna translate every media from Japan to its original source? Seriously, nothing Culex says in English is contradicted by the original source. It isn't a name change, it isn't a different implication in power, etc.
Culex stating to have power over all of creation can stand for reality, and not just simple creation (ergo insert creation feats). Inheriting time is the same as say, taking over it. Since the synonyms for inherit are "take over, acquire, obtain, derive" etc. So he has power over time and creation. One of the ways to be allowed for Low 2-C is if you have the power to affect time and space. Culex has power over reality? Culex has the power to take over time? It checks out.
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These "nitpicks" are absolutely necessary. If other verses get Low 2-C based on similarly iffy statements than that makes those other verses wrong as well.
The English Text won't be accepted. Pokémon ideally should be revised too.
And yes, I was asking for a feat. Because truth be told there is absolutely none here. The character is featless and only has three statements, all of which are super vague. This is unnaceptable grounds for an upgrade.
The English Text won't be accepted. Pokémon ideally should be revised too.
And yes, I was asking for a feat. Because truth be told there is absolutely none here. The character is featless and only has three statements, all of which are super vague. This is unnaceptable grounds for an upgrade.
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This would be preferable, yes.
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Also:
Ideally these questions should be applied to every single statement that isn't demonstrated in every single verse in fiction, yes. That would make the profiles much more accurate.
Ideally these questions should be applied to every single statement that isn't demonstrated in every single verse in fiction, yes. That would make the profiles much more accurate.
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- Thread starter
- #169
"These "nitpicks" are absolutely necessary. If other verses get Low 2-C based on similarly iffy statements than that makes those other verses wrong as well."
> No, it's you asking for visual scans. These nitpicks you make are for that, to loophole your way into saying no statements. If you need that much proof for any statements, then that just says **** you to anything statement related. Which we already said, they are allowed.
"The English Text won't be accepted. Pokémon ideally should be revised too."
> Already given my reasons why they both relate to each other, my point about Pokemon was people using that as why we can't use English when these were different cases.
"And yes, I was asking for a feat. Because truth be told there is absolutely none here. The character is featless and only has three statements, all of which are super vague. This is unnaceptable grounds for an upgrade."
> So you once again ignore my reasonings and only say "it's vague", my guy, I literally just elaborated on my reasonings for these statements, and all I get is a simple it's vague.
> No, it's you asking for visual scans. These nitpicks you make are for that, to loophole your way into saying no statements. If you need that much proof for any statements, then that just says **** you to anything statement related. Which we already said, they are allowed.
"The English Text won't be accepted. Pokémon ideally should be revised too."
> Already given my reasons why they both relate to each other, my point about Pokemon was people using that as why we can't use English when these were different cases.
"And yes, I was asking for a feat. Because truth be told there is absolutely none here. The character is featless and only has three statements, all of which are super vague. This is unnaceptable grounds for an upgrade."
> So you once again ignore my reasonings and only say "it's vague", my guy, I literally just elaborated on my reasonings for these statements, and all I get is a simple it's vague.
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If Culex had feats this discussion wouldn't exist, but he has none and that's the issue. He has three statements that are vague and interpretative.
The English Translation being "similar" is nonsense, we should use the original and not an adaptation that say something else entirely. It doesn't matter if you think it fits the original.
The English Translation being "similar" is nonsense, we should use the original and not an adaptation that say something else entirely. It doesn't matter if you think it fits the original.
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Yeah, no, under no circustance should we allow the use of an English translation that doesn't say the main point of the upgrade.
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- Thread starter
- #172
Matt, for forks sake, if you're not going to respond to my arguments and only say "it's vague" when I gave a further elaboration then I will not bother with you. I'm giving definitions on words he's using and the sites words on what is allowed for Low 2-C. You're not allowed to use a no statements rule when the entire site does, that's a site-wide CRT. Because guess what, characters are allowed to have tiers for statements. Either revise the entire wiki or don't bother with using your own views that aren't accepted on-site, because this is ridiculous.
Okay, tell the wiki to say no on every Japanese media that uses an English scan first.
Okay, tell the wiki to say no on every Japanese media that uses an English scan first.
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- Thread starter
- #173
K, read above and do the CRT.
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I addressed the issues with the statements several times over. They are far too vague and interpretative to be definitive.
No, you're giving your interpretation of the statements as if they are factually true. They are not, they're just your subjective opinion.
I'd actually be happy to argue about the overreliance of statements on the wiki as a whole. We should put more value in demonstrable feats and not hearsays. I don't see why this is so controversial. If a statement has absolutely no proof behind it and it's just coming from the character himself than that's a problem.
A lot of people agree with my views on this very thread, dude. Lots of people saying the statements are too vague to apply. Just because you think is fine doesn't mean they are. Please be open to the possibility of disagreement.
We already do this. When a translation is caught as being innacurate we use the original text. This is done for every single verse on the wiki besides Pokémon and the only reason Pokemon isn't done is because "It'd take too much time to fix".
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- #175
Great, Matt didn't change a single thing. Not once did he respond to my elaborations. Someone else respond because my time is being wasted.
Lou_change
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If you feel you have to argue that would imply you feel the need to argue you have also said no new arguments either we don't even have proof he isn't bluffing or referring to clocks and his dad's basement
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- #177
I... don't know what I am reading.
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- #179
Okay you edited it. Yes, I did have new arguments. I listed them in the giant response.
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Just my opinion but, statements are absolutely fine as long as they're aren't contradicted heavily.
But using english translations for a non English medium ain't ok, they're basically noncanon unless otherwise directly confirmed canon by those who have direct authority over it like the original director of a game or authorisl figure.
Which leaves the original japanese quotes, they seem to vague in my opinion to warrant a tier. They may confirm time-space manip and the like, that's kinda blatant, but further elaboration or context would be needed to gauge how or if they translate into a viable tiering or support of such a tier. We need more clarification is the stopping factor in my opinion.
But using english translations for a non English medium ain't ok, they're basically noncanon unless otherwise directly confirmed canon by those who have direct authority over it like the original director of a game or authorisl figure.
Which leaves the original japanese quotes, they seem to vague in my opinion to warrant a tier. They may confirm time-space manip and the like, that's kinda blatant, but further elaboration or context would be needed to gauge how or if they translate into a viable tiering or support of such a tier. We need more clarification is the stopping factor in my opinion.
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The English thing I get and don’t get. Does a property stop becoming canon when it’s not from the home country? Like, and I know this is a really shitty analogy, but is Metroid Prime non-canon because it’s developed by an American company?
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Metroid Prime is explicitly canon and confirmed canon, and it even went through retranslations to make it more accurate contextually and canonically.
Eng translations become noncanon when some random translator who has absolutely no proper authority on the subject material says or writes something that he essentially made up. If I got a job at Nintendo translating games and tweaked a line a bit because I personally thought it was cool or because it made a character stronger or weaker, would that be canon now? No, because I have zero authority on the actual material and it wasn't confirmed canon or accepted by someone who does.
Eng translations become noncanon when some random translator who has absolutely no proper authority on the subject material says or writes something that he essentially made up. If I got a job at Nintendo translating games and tweaked a line a bit because I personally thought it was cool or because it made a character stronger or weaker, would that be canon now? No, because I have zero authority on the actual material and it wasn't confirmed canon or accepted by someone who does.
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Our policy on statements is that they are usable if they author or character has no real motive to exaggerate and it's extremely specific. If a creator God of Truth says, "I gave birth to the Universe from the Chaos of Creation", that is Low 2-C statement. But a nerdy scientist or egotistical politician claiming his research or work will echo across time and space is not. "Consume time" is just the English localization and has nothing to do with all time. But Japanese version basically just has Culex claiming he is the most powerful thing in all space and time and that he has dominion over the universe rather than the power to oneshot the universe. If he says he can collapse the universe with his powers, that would have been a better statement.
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Yes but we can ignore statements from reliable sources that aren't lying. See the Homelander statement which does not match up with his feats at all.
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It's not a composite as much as using information that doesn't even exist in the original source, so the mistranslation from the English version should just be removed in its enterity.
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Do you mean dominion in the sense that he controls space-time on a universal scale or that he’s comparable to a king of sorts who doesn’t directly control the universe?
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- Thread starter
- #188
"Eng translations become noncanon when some random translator who has absolutely no proper authority on the subject material says or writes something that he essentially made up. If I got a job at Nintendo translating games and tweaked a line a bit because I personally thought it was cool or because it made a character stronger or weaker, would that be canon now? No, because I have zero authority on the actual material and it wasn't confirmed canon or accepted by someone who does."
> That makes no sense and is under the assumption they do this/allow it. And knowing Nintendo, probably not. It isn't some "random" translator, they are paid and hired by Nintendo themselves. Do you have ANY proof this was the cast at all? No. I really do not like we use the assumption that the translators add it because they want to.
"But Japanese version basically just has Culex claiming he is the most powerful thing in all space and time and that he has dominion over the universe rather than the power to oneshot the universe."
> Japanese Culex is stating his power over all of time and space. And actually, DDM, if you yourself say that he has dominion over the universe, that's still Low 2-C. Let's go back to the page.
"Low 2-C | Universe level+: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either"
"Significantly affect" is used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own, merging the structure with another one, etc."
If Culex has power over all of time and space to his will, that's Low 2-C. We already know when Culex/Nintendo Power refer to time and space, it would have to mean all of it. "Across time, from this world’s beginning to its end, I am the inheritor of the ultimate of Two." He refers to all of time when describing his power. "Come forth, o power that rules over all creation!!" This would mean it has to be a universal scale, and not just some bits of it. He talks about all of it.
I'm going to copy and paste my early response, since I feel like it was ignored.
> That makes no sense and is under the assumption they do this/allow it. And knowing Nintendo, probably not. It isn't some "random" translator, they are paid and hired by Nintendo themselves. Do you have ANY proof this was the cast at all? No. I really do not like we use the assumption that the translators add it because they want to.
"But Japanese version basically just has Culex claiming he is the most powerful thing in all space and time and that he has dominion over the universe rather than the power to oneshot the universe."
> Japanese Culex is stating his power over all of time and space. And actually, DDM, if you yourself say that he has dominion over the universe, that's still Low 2-C. Let's go back to the page.
"Low 2-C | Universe level+: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either"
"Significantly affect" is used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own, merging the structure with another one, etc."
If Culex has power over all of time and space to his will, that's Low 2-C. We already know when Culex/Nintendo Power refer to time and space, it would have to mean all of it. "Across time, from this world’s beginning to its end, I am the inheritor of the ultimate of Two." He refers to all of time when describing his power. "Come forth, o power that rules over all creation!!" This would mean it has to be a universal scale, and not just some bits of it. He talks about all of it.
I'm going to copy and paste my early response, since I feel like it was ignored.
Hopefully a response is made around this, please do not ignore this if you will respond to this. ^
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If Culex actually has universal space-time manipulation then he should be Low 2-C, similar to Rex Salazar. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Rex_Salazar
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That's like saying that if I have power over a city and I can warp and distort all of it then it much mean City level, ignoring the fact that I may be able to do so with a power lesser than what's needed to destroy a city. Warping and distorting a timeline isn't synonymous with being Low 2-C, interpreting the wording in the Tiering System to mean that is silly.
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Only the issue with saying it's a hyperbole is not an argument that can be said, due to other sources backing up his words. So that type of argument won't work. I quoted the tiering system, they 100% allow those reasons as Low 2-C. A CRT for the standards would have to be made instead. Plus Greenshifter posted an example.
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This becomes valid at universe+ where Reality Warping scales to AP.
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I made that wording in the tiering because just it was saying "affecting" and "[something to make it a bit bigger] affecting" with no standard for it, which was dumb. "Are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question" isn't meant to mean that every time you warp it you get the tier, but that if you warp it with a power comparable to destroy it then you get the tier. Culex can warp it, but not with a power comparable to what's needed to destroy it. He just has some powers.
If you're Low 2-C then you're Low 2-C, yes.
My unspecified control over a city can more fittingly be compared to any use of Time and/or Space Manip that isn't Low 2-C. Those exist.
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I'm sorry everyone for the late reply. I'm still trying to get used to this new forum. First of all, I think we should be careful when it comes to trying to integrate translation differences in dialogue. That being said, what is consistent on both languages is that Culex is confirmed to have mastery over time and space. I just looked up the site one more time and it looks like he was comparing his 2D figure with Mario's 3D one but it seems more of a 4th Wall Break rather than actual dimensions, otherwise, neither would be able to hurt each other, which, I believe Super Paper Mario actual did tackle something like that with Mario's Flip. You should probably make sure it doesn't goes against the rules established or people are okay with it. If so, then I guess there's no harm in changing it.
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Dino comes in to save the day. And no problem, lots of us here are still not used to the new forums.
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I'm fine with him having space-time manipulation, that much is clear, but that doesn't translate to "Can destroy universes".
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That is true as well.
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- #200
Yes, however Low 2-C is also accepted as being able to create universes or be able to manipulate them in some way or form as stated in the site. Which the latter can work.
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