• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

DBZ speeds... again...

SchutzenDunkelZiel1217

SchutzenDunkelZiel1217

VS Battles
FC/OC VS Battles
Retired
1,428
57
This is for the staff. Staff members please reply here and ignore the other thread that's for regular users...

Alright we've more or less concluded The DBZ Speeds thread.

The Relativistic moon bust speed had a possibility of being an outlier as it was contradicted later on by the Snakeway feat.

Now before anyone says that the Snakeway feat is PIS. I'll just say that there's literally no MHS feats in Part 1 Dragon Ball and the MHS speed stats from Part 1 Dragon Ball comes from a statement...

We all know feats > statements.

Now we got this "DB characters use huge amounts of Ki in "bursts" to make themselves much stronger and faster while not staying at that level over long periods of time (because that would waste Ki). That's way their combat speed >>> their travel speed and why their power "jumped" early on while the villains underestimated the" Quoted from LordXcano...

And there's also the fact that we never really got much feats in the speed department or any department for DBZ...

At the very least we know for a fact that DBZ makes a huge distinction between Travel speed and Combat speed...

Now with this we got something... Radtiz dodged Piccolo's beam. Now with this being either a Combat/reactions/short bursts speed feat or a Travel speed feat I'd say this was a Combat/reactions/short bursts feat as it's more likely (given the above explanation) and so as to avoid contradictions.

Same with the MHS statement... it should likely be a Combat/reactions/short bursts speed feat as there are literally no traveling speed feats with result in MHS and also because it fits very well with this explanation above...

Now the DBZ speed are most likely gonna be like this.

For SSJ Goku and Frieza 100%

Speed: FTL+ Combat Speed, reactions and short bursts speed. This is with the timeframe of 17.84 seconds.

Or Speed: MFTL Combat Speed, reactions and short bursts speed. This is with the timeframe of 4 seconds from the anime.

Now we come to the main point of this thread. Decide upon the timeframe. Since there seems to be no other way I'll just ask ya guys to vote.

Now for traveling speed it would likely still be FTL by the end of the Frieza saga but I'll need to gather some information on that. Also just a heads up there may be downgrades of sort on some speed stats...
 
Hmm...well, first of all, I remember you saying that Lord Kavpeny and DontTalk took serious issue with one of the timeframes. I don't want to force you into speaking for them, but I just want to ask which one it was, as I'm rather conflicted right now and would like to know what two of the site's most trusted users think.
 
They didn't really like either timeframes as they had their own flaws. But if I had to choose which one they wouldn't want to use it'd be the Cinematic timeframe aka the 3 seconds one... they may have changed their opinions though...
 
Hmm...I see. I suppose that is a bit of an issue. That said, regardless of what timeframe we settle on, I'm on board for Sub-rel+ to Relativistic Saiyan Saga, though the thing I am still a bit shaky on is the multiplication of Goku's speed by exactly 10 by the Ginyu Force fight simply due to a sentence in an excerpt from the back of a volume. I don't know why, but I'm not entirely comfortable with it, which is probably due in part to Toriyama's occasional issues with consistency. Like, yes the training obviously made Goku far stronger and faster, but I'm very hesitant to pin the exact number "10" to it and base everything from then on off of that, especially for a series like Dragon Ball, where 99% of fights are determined solely by speed and power, and having even a slight advantage over your opponent in both of those pretty much allows you to stomp them.

I don't know. I might not be making sense (due to not sleeping very well), but I hope I'm getting my point across.
 
Oh, and personally, there's always things like this (9:35 - 9:51) that make me really hesitant to accept the 4 second timeframe, so yeah, I'm currently probably going with 17, though that's always up to change if evidence for more accurate timeframes comes up.
 
Like i said in the other thread...

Well, if the calculation group said that is fine, then i'm also agree. I trust them like a blind man trusts his dog. 17.84 seconds doesn't seem bad at all. IMHO
 
@Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot: Alright then thanks for your input...

@KamiYasha: I see thanks for your input on this...
 
Well, in the last thread I said:

"This is a rather controversial issue. On the one hand, it would be far more convenient to use cinematic time when no apparent time distortion is going on, and we have no other more reliable means to gauge the time spent. On the other, it is not certain that we could accurately gauge whether it is distorted or not.

Maybe we could use it on a case-by-case basis?"

Of course, it is probably not that simple. For some reason lots of people want absolute consistency, so that we have to always accept cinematic time if we use it for one instance, have to redo various old calculations, and remember this to accept various new ones.

I still have a very hard time making up my mind about this, but if Lord Kavpeny and DontTalk still think that it is unreliable, then I suppose that I am going with their take on this.
 
Sorry about having a hard time to decide. The input has been very conflicted, and I think that both sides have had good points.
 
Personally I am not all that strict about cinematic time (I judge it on an case to case basis, which as antvasima said is difficult, usually I only see it relevant if the animation in question has shown to abuse it and if things happen off screen or with a lot of cuts). lluminati478 has higher standards than me in that matter, I believe.

Now to the case in question:

The calc for the manga timeframe was questionable, because it proclaimed that one could still see rocks falling, but in the panels that were referred to non can be seen. There was also a second problem that the link to the original scaling for the height that the pieces flew to was missing.


Still I would go with the manga timeframe of 17.84 seconds here. The fact that no rocks could be seen in the manga panel would suggest that the rocks were already at the ground at that point, so that much would be the suggested minimum timeframe, i believe.

For the issue of scaling I would give the OBD the pass for once, as it usually does that well, but if someone wants to doubt it that is of course a legitimate objection.
 
I'd go for either the 4 or 17 seconds really. Whichever one is chosen, I am fine with it.
 
If it is still an issue, I would however go with the distance between our Earth and Moon, since Toriyama supposedly said so.
 
Antvasima said:
If it is still an issue, I would however go with the distance between our Earth and Moon, since Toriyama supposedly said so.
Click to expand...
Angsizing moon distance is something that in my experience often gives wrong (to short) values, so I absolutely agree with that.
 
Yeah, the moon distance shouldn't be an issue here since toriyama already confirmed the distance of dragonball a moon. The problem is the speed of the blast itself.
 
Are we still arguing about this? The other thread was closed by Antvasima, but are we going to keep this one open, considering the two threads were supposed to be co-threads.

Anyway, I still side with the 4-second time frame considering Kai is our source now, and the manga timeframe was improvised to begin with on top of Living Tribunal's point that it may be unreliable. And cinematic time is moot since we still have no clear standards regarding what constitutes an abuse of it.

This leaves one question, that being whether or not it's an outlier. It moved much faster than any other blast in the Saiyan Saga or Frieza Saga (that anyone reacted to; Frieza's Supernova can't be scaled to anyone since no one reacted to it). However, Aimenaltair brought up Super Vegeta's Final Flash from the Android Saga, which Perfect Cell was seemingly able to react to at the last second. Said blast went far into space and detonated likely several light years away. Someone ought to try and calculate the speed of that blast.
 
@Unclechairman

You know, that's actually something I hadn't thought of. The outlier thing, that is. Since this is our basis for...well, literally everything in these upgrades, and the fact that the blast was far, far faster than any other in the both the Saiyan Saga and Frieza Saga, it being an outlier would render all of this completely unreliable.
 
That's why I said I was a bit hesitant to bring it up in the other thread. It would make all of these discussions completely pointless and a waste of our time.
 
Just asking, but "other blasts" are we talking about here that traveled slower? The only thing that comes to mind is cells kamemameha that fired at gohan, but other than that, how do we know whether or not the later blasts are slower or not?
 
Sheoth said:
Just asking, but "other blasts" are we talking about here that traveled slower? The only thing that comes to mind is cells kamemameha that fired at gohan, but other than that, how do we know that if the later blasts are slower or not?
Click to expand...
Well for one, Piccolo's SBC, which took twice as long to hit a distant mountain range than his regular ki blast took to hit the moon.
 
Wouldn't that simply be an instance of cinematic time making it look slower? Because I don't think it would be effect animating on Toeis part to make the beam hit the mountain the second it leaves piccolos had, the same way it would look stupid if he stood pointing at the moon for 17 seconds.
 
As Uncle said, we pretty much have no idea what's cinematic time and what isn't, but as it stands, Piccolo's casual blast speed >>> every other attack in the saga (and the following saga).
 
But if we don't know what's cinematic time and what isn't (and I guess we really don't), how could we tell wether or not it's faster than the others?

I guess because the other blasts are shown slower overall? But again, it could be that they are slower from CT than they should be rather than vice verse as unclechairman said.
 
Sheoth said:
But if we don't know what's cinematic time and what isn't (and I guess we really don't), how could we tell wether or not it's faster than the others?
I guess because the other blasts are shown slower overall? But again, it could be that they are slower from CT than they should be rather than vice verse as unclechairman said.
Click to expand...
Because, as I said, if we don't know what is cinematic time and what isn't, and we assume them all to be in a similar period of time, this is still the fastest attack in the saga, unless you make random assumptions about how fast other attacks are. Therein lies the problem, unfortunately.
 
But this moon blast speed is the one instance that we are basing the rest off of. Of course we don't know the exact speed of the blasts later on, we just have to assume that they are faster, much like how we don't know exactly how much faster the characters are later on, we only know that they are "faster" and resort to multipliers to determine their new minimum speed.
 
The moon blast speed is less what we are basing the speed of the blasts off of and more what we are basing the speeds of the characters themselves off of, as unlike the characters, we can see the blasts move certain distances in certain amounts of time. However, the problem is, as I have stated, this casual attack dwarfs the speed of later, far more deadly attacks by a pretty substantial amount, thus leading us to either:

A) Form guesses off of limited information about exactly how cinematic time affected each scene in question.

or

B) Consider this attack's speed an outlier, which as Uncle said, would unfortunately make most of this discussion moot.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
The moon blast speed is less what we are basing the speed of the blasts off of and more what we are basing the speeds of the characters themselves off of, as unlike the characters, we can see the blasts move certain distances in certain amounts of time. However, the problem is, as I have stated, this casual attack dwarfs the speed of later, far more deadly attacks by a pretty substantial amount, thus leading us to either:
A) Form guesses off of limited information about exactly how cinematic time affected each scene in question.

or

B) Consider this attack's speed an outlier, which as Uncle said, would unfortunately make most of this discussion moot.
Click to expand...
I think of it like this: You are watching an action movie and a character shoots bullets at a target that look like they are fired in real time. A few scenes later and you see a character dodge bullets, yet they look slow motion in order to display this characters speed and ability to dodge. Are the bullets from that gun slower than the last gun? Nah, they are just trying to show something superhuman from the perspective of that character. Their is no need to slow down the speed of the gun when shooting at something stationary and insignificant like a target, but they will show things slowed down when something needs to be properly displayed.

I think the blast and character speeds are a lot like this. They showed the moon get blown up nearly instantly from an outside viewing perspective, but when firing at people, there are long dramatic pauses and they display the characters reactions as if it were from their perspective at these moments. Sorry if that was a bad example, this is just one possibility that could explain the inconcistency in timing.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
The moon blast speed is less what we are basing the speed of the blasts off of and more what we are basing the speeds of the characters themselves off of, as unlike the characters, we can see the blasts move certain distances in certain amounts of time. However, the problem is, as I have stated, this casual attack dwarfs the speed of later, far more deadly attacks by a pretty substantial amount, thus leading us to either:
A) Form guesses off of limited information about exactly how cinematic time affected each scene in question.

or

B) Consider this attack's speed an outlier, which as Uncle said, would unfortunately make most of this discussion moot.
Click to expand...
I did bring up that Vegeta's Final Flash in the Android Saga travelled deep into space in a very short time period (seconds, in fact) and Cell was seemingly able to react to it somewhat, which may help in arguing that this feat is not an outlier. Someone just has to calculate it

As I've thought about this, though, we've come across a bigger problem; nobody reacted to Piccolo's moon-busting blast, and thus it's only possible to scale it by assuming his blasts in the rest of the saga were of a comparable speed, which, as they were not explicitly shown as being as fast as said moon-busting blast, can only be argued as such with assumptions based on cinematic timing.
 
Unclechairman said:
I did bring up that Vegeta's Final Flash in the Android Saga travelled deep into space in a very short time period (seconds, in fact) and Cell was seemingly able to react to it somewhat, which may help in arguing that this feat is not an outlier. Someone just has to calculate it

As I've thought about this, though, we've come across a bigger problem; nobody reacted to Piccolo's moon-busting blast, and thus it's only possible to scale it by assuming his blasts in the rest of the saga were of a comparable speed, which, as they were not explicitly shown as being as fast as said moon-busting blast, can only be argued as such with assumptions based on cinematic timing.
Click to expand...
I would definitely like to see that calced.

Hm...that is a bit of an issue.
 
So we are still undecided then. This is a problem. In a worst case scenario, we might have to stick "Unknown" on the speeds of a lot of Dragon Ball characters, which would be unfortunate.
 
Antvasima said:
So we are still undecided then. This is a problem. In a worst case scenario, we might have to stick "Unknown" on the speeds of a lot of Dragon Ball characters, which would be unfortunate.
Click to expand...
Oh no....
 
I think:

The issue about the inconsistency of speed of Ki blasts is not an issue. Again, I don't know the mechanics, so this is pure conjecture, but it is quite clear that as the speed of a DBZ character increases, their speed at projecting a Ki blast increases as well.

Otherwise, it would be highly illogical to assume that the speed of all Ki blasts, from the beginning of Dragon Ball to the current ones in Dragon Ball Super, have the same measure of speed. It would create a massive speed inconsistency within the series.


Regarding scaling using cinematic time-frames...the ideal solution is, as DontTalk suggested, to resolve on a case-by-case basis. However, that is not a viable solution for a site attempting to index statistics. There must be a degree of standardization in all matters, including the acceptance of cinematic time-frame for calcs. I believe that while some decisions need to be made subjectively, a decision as fundamental as this one should be fixed and universal, and that a stand needs to be taken.

And I am taking a stand, which is not using cinematic time-frame.

I would like to reiterate by saying that Anime often misuse cinematic time-frame. Dragon Ball Z (and yes, even Kai, though considerably less so) is notorious for the misuse of cinematic time-frame. I believe that, in accordance with the current standard, cinematic time-frames should be disregarded, and alternative time-measuring techniques should be used instead.

This is because:

  • With respect to this particular instance, cinematic time-frame screws up all speed scaling in the franchise. Hell, it disrupts the very base ideology of DBZ combat speeds being > travel speeds.
  • All other instances of DBZ Ki basts must use the same principle as well, which would again lead to massive speed inconsistencies. For example, should we scale the speed of Master Roshi's Kamehameha (to the moon, back in Dragon Ball), with respect to this time-frame? Or even earlier, postulate the distance of the Ox King's mountain based on the cinematic time-frame (which would assuredly be far more than the actual distance)?
  • Almost all FTL feats in fiction would be rendered invalid by Cinematic time-frames. Should Dragon Ball Super's God Tier's speeds be calced using cinematic time-frames as well? Their speed end result would probably be lower than MHS, let alone MFTL.
  • Accepting cinematic time-frames in certain instances, while not accepting them in general, apart from generating innumerable inconsistencies, would also be, dare I say, partial to some franchises, albeit unintentionally.


Will all that said, I agree with SchutzenDunkelZiel1217's calcs, and I accept the 17 second time-frame calc, and the speed scaling from it.

Agreements/disagreements?
 
Well, I don't like Cinematic timing for reasons already heard, and I figured the 17 seconds could also act like some sort of low ball for the feat aswell, so I'll go with the 17 seconds aswell.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Milly_Rocking_Bandit
  • Locked
Jujutsu Kaisen: The MHS Cap (Staff Only)
Replies
20
Views
4K
Emirp sumitpo
Emirp sumitpo
Ednaxel2
Dragon Ball and the Unknown tier questions
Replies
16
Views
1K
Padaruyos
Padaruyos
James_Plays_4_Games
Impostor Speed Formatting (Among Us)
Replies
12
Views
1K
James_Plays_4_Games
James_Plays_4_Games
Fwyzzverse
Timeframe | Creation Feats (Revision)
Replies
33
Views
2K
Qawsedf234
Qawsedf234
Golden_Void
Scarlet Nexus Profiles Need Work
Replies
2
Views
246
Hypertornado099
Hypertornado099
Back
Top