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DBZ speeds... again...

"With respect to this particular instance, cinematic time-frame screws up all speed scaling in the franchise. Hell, it disrupts the very base ideology of DBZ combat speeds being > travel speeds."

The basis for combat speed being greater than travel speed in Dragon Ball (at least pre-BOG Saga in Super) actually originates, to my knowledge, from the fact that they can keep up with and dodge blasts that far exceed the characters' travel speed. I'm not quite sure how cinematic time relates to this other than the apparent issue at hand of "are blast speeds in Dragon Ball at least partly caused by cinematic time?".


"All other instances of DBZ Ki basts must use the same principle as well, which would again lead to massive speed inconsistencies. For example, should we scale the speed of Master Roshi's Kamehameha (to the moon, back in Dragon Ball), with respect to this time-frame? Or even earlier, postulate the distance of the Ox King's mountain based on the cinematic time-frame (which would assuredly be far more than the actual distance)?"

Nobody reacted to either of those blasts, though, so the case of scaling them to anyone is a tenous case at best. Speaking of which, we have a bigger issue on our hands that I brought up; nobody reacted to Piccolo's moon-buster, so how can we scale it to anyone without assuming that all his blasts must be the same speed, which from what we see on-screen, they don't, and assuming they do requires bringing cinematic time into the issue, which, as I've stated repeatedly, is a factor that cannot be accurately measured and quantified?


"Almost all FTL feats in fiction would be rendered invalid by Cinematic time-frames. Should Dragon Ball Super's God Tier's speeds be calced using cinematic time-frames as well? Their speed end result would probably be lower than MHS, let alone MFTL."

The MFTL feats in question are of space travel, so I'm fairly certain that calcing it in the anime would still come out MFTL. And in fact, contrary to what you seem to be saying, which is that face-value time frames are almost universally less than lightspeed, face-value timeframes are what allow FTL feats to happen in the first place, because bringing cinematic time and it's notions of realistic time frames vs non-realistic time frames (the only standard we seem to be going by when judging whether or not cinematic time is a factor in a feat) into the argument would by default render all Lightspeed or faster feats invalid, because FTL as a concept is unrealistic since nothing in real life can go faster than light as to do so would require infinite energy or greater, which is literally impossible.

Lastly, there may have been flaws with the original calc that got 17.84 seconds. As TheLiving_Tribunal1 pointed out, the rocks that were used to get a timeframe may have been appeared because of Gohan's rampage. Did the timeframe rely on those rocks not appearing from Gohan's rampage? If so, the speed calc may be entirely invalid.
 
Well, about the general decision towards cinematic time. I can say that I am not very happy with it. I can absolutely understand the position and given that I had discussions several times about how many scientific flaws a calc is allowed to have I certainly know the problem of case by case basis, but I am not happy.

Still maybe making hard rules is necessary for having such a site, so in the end I would support it.
 
@Unclechairma: Given that you seem to disagree with Lord Kavpenys suggestion, maybe you wish to make a thread on the staff board explaining which alternative approach you would suggest for dealing with cinematic times in general (as in not in relation to dragonball or any other series specifically) so that we can discuss, which is the best option properly?
 
I don't think I need to create a new thread, because my alternative is very simple; use them. Yes, even when a timeframe can be gotten from the manga. Getting timeframes from mangas (when they are not stated, of course) involves finding otherwise arbitrary details that relate to the scene in question somehow, then making low-end assumptions. Getting timeframes from anime needs no such thing; a precise timeframe can be gotten by anyone who can count without the need for arbitrary details and low-end assumptions.
 
@Unclechairma: It seems you have missed the point I was trying to make. Very well, some examples using hypothetical speed figures (since I don't have the energy to determine actual numbers):

  • Example one:
    • Time taken by base Goku at beginning of Z to throw a punch (using cinematic time-frames): 0.5 seconds (assumption)
    • Time taken by Buu saga SS 3 Goku to throw a punch (using cinematic time-frames): 0.5 seconds (assumption)
  • Example two:
    • Time taken by Goku to move a certain distance during the fight with Piccolo in 23rd Budokai Tenchi: 1 second (assumption)
    • Time taken by Android Saga SS Goku to move the same distance during the fight with Android 19 against Android 19: 1 second (assumption)
  • Example three:
    • Time taken by Dragon Ball Goku's Kamehameha to cover a certain distance: 2 seconds (assumption)
    • Time taken by Frieza Saga Goku's Kamehameha to cover same distance: 2 seconds (assumption)
Like I said, I am assuming the listed time-frame. Now, you can call bullshit on that and continue to debate with respect to those examples, or realize the fact that regardless of the accuracy of the assumptions in these particular examples, similar figures can be obtained throughout the series.

Now, does this mean that combat speed of BoZ base Goku and Buu saga SS 3 Goku are similar, or even in the same tier? Or any of the other examples? Because if we're utilizing cinematic time-frames, that's exactly what it should imply.

Not only that, but if two characters from different Verses can cover the same distance in an equal amount of cinematic time, they would be listed as having equivalent speeds. Can you comprehend the chaos that would cause? Hell, DBZ and Naruto of all might have to be listed with equal speeds.

I can provide countless other such inconsistencies (and calc proper time-frames as well), all of which would be equally illogical, which is is the reason I chose to discard cinematic time entirely in the first place.

The solution is, again, to do handle such matters in a subjective manner, but we don't have the man-power for it, and like I stated before, it might lead to indirect partiality towards some franchises, which is unacceptable.
 
@DontTalk: I understand that you're not entirely in agreement with my opinion, but at the very least, I'm sure you agree with the basis of my reasoning. If cinematic time-frames are indeed to be accepted, then taking the same action (short range movement, throwing a punch, etc.) should take a fraction of the cinematic time of the same action from previous arcs, which doesn't happen.

To do the same action (aka, covering the same distance), within similar time-frames, will yield similar speeds. And yet, evidence from the manga suggests a massive speed difference. Hence utilizing cinematic time would either result in inconsistencies, or turn the basic physics principles of speed invalid.
 
Yes I understand, the only thing I wanted to say is that it is sad that some legitimate feats will also go overboard with it, but there isn't much one can do about that.
 
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