Has that been explicitly stated or explicitly shown anywhere? I do not remember at the moment.
I was shown scans a few months ago in our general DC Comics discussion thread in this forum, but do not have them available.
Aye, without any proper timeframe, we can't get any speed out of it for KE.
Yeah.
vsbattles.fandom.com
No. I am afraid not. Our staff need to discuss the issues further. My apologies.
Your input would also be appreciated, @Deagonx .
Lifting strength isn’t an AP feat, it wouldn’t be scalable to his AP at all. It doesn’t matter how impressive it’s supposed to be.The point is that this major event was explicitly treated as a massive upgrade to post-Crisis Superman at the time, and the feat in question was of around a tier 5-C scale.
See here:
Celestial Body Feats
In fiction, some of the more impressive feats are those involving constellations and celestial bodies in general. Those feats are often hard to quantify due to going beyond the physics. The following is the agreement on how it will be done. If a constellation is created by moving stars...
Within the greater context of how this incarnation of Superman was generally portrayed in likely thousands of stories, it doesn't make any sense to upgrade him to Low 2-C.
I want to clarify something.
@Vasco @Stefano4444
Will do so later, got a headache now.
Sorry if I sound disrespectful in any regards, but this question has been at the tip of my tongue since the start of our discussion pretty much.
Just to add, but from what I know, the whole Superman only fights Darkseid's avatars thing is kinda... wrong. As in New Gods #15, he states he doesn't prefer using avatars and only does so when he needs to be in two places at the same time. So him using an avatar to fight Supes is an out of character move, it's usually just his regular emanation.
There's also the fact that a lot of the moments used to argue "everyone can fight everyone", where Street tier characters fight Heralds, are outliers in their own right
Personally I think that remains to be seen, but consider the inverse of this: How many hundreds, or thousands, of comics involve him fighting people who are nowhere near that level, but he still struggles? Now, I'm aware that the routine response to this is that his power level is variable or that he holds back, but I feel like this kind of overlooks the magnitude of difference between these tiers and the fact that if Superman is really that powerful, even galaxy-level beings should be utterly helpless against him, but that's clearly not the case.
I updated the tally
This are the only feats left to be check if legit or not?
This really isn’t a great counter. The difference between tiers literally doesn’t matter because he’s not using his full strength. Similar characters like Wonder Woman have even been shown to hold back to the point that they won’t kill 8-C characters.
kinda, these are the feats with 3+ staff that have agreed, emirp has stated that he needs more time to finish responses to the "debunks
The problem is that if a character's own personal absolute peak exertion feats are consistently many tiers below the characters that he or she fights, and the fundamental nature of the settings is that everybody can fight everybody, and that the many hundreds of authors constantly contradict each other, then it genuinely is much more logical to interpret illogical matchup results as plot-induced stupidity.
I know, and this is incorporated into what I am trying to communicate. There are a lot of comic issues out there where Post-Crisis Superman fights people. Many times against people whom he has no reason to hold back against, and reasons to not hold back against. My point is not to say that he must not be that powerful because he can't kill them, but rather, there are many times where he is clearly injured, down for the count, extremely distressed about how the fight is going, against opponents who -- should we accept the claim that he is tier 2 -- are in essence no greater of a threat to him than I am.
Agreed. I think that the only way to get genuinely reliable tiering for Marvel Comics and DC Comics characters is if we try to figure out a system to scale the characters from their own personal explicit feats and most consistently displayed high exertion power levels to a much greater degree than we do currently in an as unbiased and rational manner as possible, as otherwise all of the characters will increasingly be chain-scaled to each other more and more unreasonably higher through continuous revisions. Help in this regard would be extremely appreciated.
Can you provide examples of these opponents? Because we actually have conditions about whether or not characters can scale to the peaks of Clark, Diana, Hal, etc.
I am taking a different approach. I agree that the damage they do to their opponents is strongly inhibited by their moral code. I am talking more about a) the damage that is done to them by their opponents, b) the context of the situation, the threat it poses to Earth, innocent lives, et cetera, and c) whether it is appropriate in that context to think that they let the situation go on for as long as it did, or get as bad as it did, if their opponent indeed is so much weaker than them.
I see.
It never directly claimed that they were going to destroy the universe, but the guy indeed was damaging the entire timestream, which its assume would be the timeline.
Agree.
I'm not fully convinced about this scaling, but i can concede and at least admit that it looks more legit than i thought, so i guess Supes downscaling would make sense here.
Looks legit, and considering Ion did fought explicit universe level threats such as Superman Prime it does make this statement less hyperbole.
I guess considering that Superman its usually potray as the strongest there its an argument for to at least scale to Flash's 2-C, less certain for 2-A considering that absolute peak Flash put a better fight agains villains who can easily dominate Superman.
Statement looks straight and clean, same with Superman destroying the Phantom Zone, this Low 2-C statement can be used.
I still think this feat shouldn't be used, like i say Barbatos was chained and we don't see how much he was affect by Superman punch.
This isn’t foolproof logic, and we don’t even use it now. Otherwise there’d be a lot more characters at 4-B. Plus some characters like Superman and the Green Lanterns have variable tiers, so you’d have to prove that they’re at their peaks before you can claim that a character would scale for harming them.
These go back to the conditions we have for scaling to these characters, they have to be able to threaten the characters like this consistently (which is why I asked you to give examples).
Was it explicitly clarified that the damage to the time stream was caused by the two characters in question explicitly threatening the local galaxy, or was it due to something else, such as when Parallax and Extant were trying to recreate the universe?
Well, their respective peak feats in practice do not match each other at all.
See my last post above please.
Post-Crisis Superman himself has no feats above tier High 4-C that I know of and was usually portrayed as far less powerful than that. In addition, we currently rate the post-Crisis Wally West Flash as tier 4-B.
The collected power of Monarch's entire body was only displayed as capable of destroying a single universe, and many versions of Superman from different universes taken together, at least one of which (the "Zen master" Superman) was more powerful than the mainstream Superman, could do nothing to Monarch even together, if I remember correctly.
Well, it is only a single feat, and it would only apply to the post-Rebirth incarnation of Superman.
Yes, if Superman could beat up Barbatos on his own without a serious crutch (the 10th metal), the entire Metal event would have been over very quickly.
Characters like Darkseid and Time Trapper don’t have a holding back mechanic or variable tiers, so the same logic doesn’t apply to them, and there’s multiple examples of Superman and the others fighting them competitively.
