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Deleting/Completely Rewriting the Reality-Fiction Interactions page

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Eficiente said:
We were talking close to christmas. Then I wasn't on the wiki for some time. Then I came back and went into what I was notified in order, but then I noticed this thread was buried below all that.
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It’s fine then. Having the time off of wiki should be considered as well.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, except for me. I haven't truly taken a single day off work for around 8.5 years now.
Click to expand...
Ayo, fr I've seen and witnessed just as impressive and hard working you are is admirable, I'll suggest to take a rest of atleast one day per month. Not for long tho, wiki needs you and it wouldn't survive your absence of that long.
 
Excuse me, I don't know if it's appropriate to raise this issue, and I know it's frowned upon to raise r/CharacterRant posts as reasons behind threads, but I believe we need a longer "Notes" section to debunk some common misconceptions about RFT before we close this thread. Both current notes are fine, but I would like to see two other issues addressed in the notes. If accepted, I'll sandbox the reasoning myself and do some copy editing on the page. I need to sleep now, but I can explain in more detail when I'm awake.
  1. One note should explain that Tier 0 isn't an automatic product of RFT; despite being called "Boundless" and describing characters that functionally transcend the rest of the tiering system, it's merely the place where we decided to stop our tiering system, and Tier 0 is to High 1-A what 1-A is to Low 1-A, not some "omnipotence" tier.
  2. The second note should address the issues raised in this thread, as some people attempt to downplay characters based on the idea that only the top layer of a narrative stack is "real" and everything below that would be Tier 11 fodder, and you're right if you think that doesn't make any sense at all. I've already raised this issue on the Fandom Navigation Announcement and SCP Discussion threads, so I more-or-less just need some experts to help me synthesize why, specifically, rants like these are nonsensical:
Click to expand...
 
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I didn't go over all that but I would think that all we have so far already covers it, no? Can you be specific on what we need to say and how what we have already doesn't work to cover it?
 
Eficiente said:
I didn't go over all that but I would think that all we have so far already covers it, no? Can you be specific on what we need to say and how what we have already doesn't work to cover it?
Click to expand...
  1. The first note I want to add is a more detailed explanation of why RFT ≠ automatic Tier 0. This one is something I know enough about to write myself without any staff help, and I'm just asking for approval before I draft it.
  2. The second note would be about debunking the types of arguments in the two r/CharacterRant posts I found; the people complaining about VSBW know so little about how Reality Equalization works that they've convinced themselves that including RFT at all in a verse makes that verse utter fodder compared to any verse that doesn't have RFT. However, they have extremely elaborate arguments I'm not skilled enough to debunk every piece off the top of my head, so I want some experts on staff to help me pour over the points made in those two posts and demonstrate why they're all unambiguously nonsensical.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Excuse me, I don't know if it's appropriate to raise this issue, and I know it's frowned upon to raise r/CharacterRant posts as reasons behind threads, but I believe we need a longer "Notes" section to debunk some common misconceptions about RFT before we close this thread. Both current notes are fine, but I would like to see two other issues addressed in the notes. If accepted, I'll sandbox the reasoning myself and do some copy editing on the page. I need to sleep now, but I can explain in more detail when I'm awake.
  1. One note should explain that Tier 0 isn't an automatic product of RFT; despite being called "Boundless" and describing characters that functionally transcend the rest of the tiering system, it's merely the place where we decided to stop our tiering system, and Tier 0 is to High 1-A what 1-A is to Low 1-A, not some "omnipotence" tier.
  2. The second note should address the issues raised in this thread, as some people attempt to downplay characters based on the idea that only the top layer of a narrative stack is "real" and everything below that would be Tier 11 fodder, and you're right if you think that doesn't make any sense at all. I've already raised this issue on the Fandom Navigation Announcement and SCP Discussion threads, so I more-or-less just need some experts to help me synthesize why, specifically, rants like these are nonsensical:
Click to expand...
Eficiente said:
I didn't go over all that but I would think that all we have so far already covers it, no? Can you be specific on what we need to say and how what we have already doesn't work to cover it?
Click to expand...
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
  1. The first note I want to add is a more detailed explanation of why RFT ≠ automatic Tier 0. This one is something I know enough about to write myself without any staff help, and I'm just asking for approval before I draft it.
  2. The second note would be about debunking the types of arguments in the two r/CharacterRant posts I found; the people complaining about VSBW know so little about how Reality Equalization works that they've convinced themselves that including RFT at all in a verse makes that verse utter fodder compared to any verse that doesn't have RFT. However, they have extremely elaborate arguments I'm not skilled enough to debunk every piece off the top of my head, so I want some experts on staff to help me pour over the points made in those two posts and demonstrate why they're all unambiguously nonsensical.
Click to expand...
@DontTalkDT

What do you think about this?
 
Antvasima said:
@DontTalkDT

What do you think about this?
Click to expand...
What 1. is concerned... one could add it, but do we really need an explanation to not NLF R>F these days? It's been ages since I last brought anyone bring it up and the page implicitly explains how we rank it as just one layer of infinity higher.

Regarding 2.: I believe that's entirely covered by the reality equalization page, which is already linked.
 
DontTalkDT said:
What 1. is concerned... one could add it, but do we really need an explanation to not NLF R>F these days? It's been ages since I last brought anyone bring it up and the page implicitly explains how we rank it as just one layer of infinity higher.

Regarding 2.: I believe that's entirely covered by the reality equalization page, which is already linked.
Click to expand...
Maybe that's fine for now, but I'll still keep asking some others.
 
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DontTalkDT said:
What 1. is concerned... one could add it, but do we really need an explanation to not NLF R>F these days? It's been ages since I last brought anyone bring it up and the page implicitly explains how we rank it as just one layer of infinity higher.

Regarding 2.: I believe that's entirely covered by the reality equalization page, which is already linked.
Click to expand...
That makes sense to me. Thank you for helping out. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

Should we close this thread then?
 
Antvasima said:
That makes sense to me. Thank you for helping out. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

Should we close this thread then?
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If DontTalk is okay with it. Their answer didn't satisfy me, but I managed to get the issue reasonably resolved on the Q&A thread I linked.
 
I think it can be closed.
Countering reddit arguments is not really our priority anyway. Too different foundations.
 
I asked DontTalk to comment here, so we can finally close this thread.
 
I'd like to add in Unacceptable examples this one:

  • The Player (Undertale): They view the realities of Undertale and Deltarune as just fictional games which can be manipulated. However the nature of this entity is extremely vague as most of the information regarding them is either missing or unknown, thus it cannot be assumed that they are transcendent compared to these worlds given the lack of context on this being.
Because a thing that can discredit R>F transcendence not only is the existence of anti-feats, but also if a being is generally too vague to qualify as Tier 1 compared to a Tier 2 world.
 
It's already on there.
Additionally, the showings should be reasonably clear. Vague cameos of author avatars, hints at a "player" character without further context or similar things should be disregarded. In such cases it simply can't be sufficiently ascertained that the world is viewed as true "fiction". In some cases it's not even clear if it's more than a simple nod to the audience or humorous instance of Breaking the Fourth Wall, which is not to be taken seriously.
Click to expand...
 
Okay. Going by that example, first you say they see Undertale as a fictional game, and the next you say it's vague.

What's vague about seeing Undertale cosmology as a game?
 
Because for example the Real World of SAO or Matrix see those worlds as just games, but the characters were never potrayed as transcendent.

And even in Undertale's case, there's simply 0 evidence to assume the Player is transcendent as well.
 
VR games feed sensory data into your mind in order to create simulated realities.

There's no cosmology whatsoever.

There's a difference between an actual 4D cosmology existing as a game and just messing with your mind to create an illusion of being in a game world

I don't know much about Undertale but from what I know so far the cosmology is a 4D one so can you elaborate on why it's an unacceptable example rather than anti feats or vague implications against it? And even in that case it's already been covered on the page
 
Sniper670 said:
I don't know much about Undertale but from what I know so far the cosmology is a 4D one so can you elaborate on why it's an unacceptable example rather than anti feats or vague implications against it? And even in that case it's already been covered on the page
Click to expand...
Basically this.
Sniper670 said:
There's no cosmology whatsoever.
Click to expand...
In the game worlds of SAO there's definitely an universe so that's very ******* wrong lol.
 
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