Deltarune: Busting upgrade before Chapter 5

[Qurbonboev]

This CRT is about Busters, something we love and cherish:
Susie (and Delta Warriors) should get: "higher attack speed via Busters"
Rude (and Red) Busters are considerably more faster than combat speed of opponents (to whom Gang scales to in speed). It's projectile fired from ~10 meters that no one, besides Gerson and Roaring Knight (notice how both have very substantial speed advantage over Gang) can reliably dodge or deal with.
Susie also would get higher reactions for being able to reflect back her own Busters that were redirected towards her by Gerson. Other Gang members (Kris, Ralsei and Noelle) should get it too, since game doesn't present different gang members as having significantly different in speed and reactions and such during battles together.
Question remains: should higher reactions apply only to chapter 4 Gang members, or to chapter 1-3 Gang too. Susie reflects back Busters only in chapter 4, so is there no special reason this would apply to chapter 1-3 keys, besides fact that there is no strong narrative reason for such increase in chapter 4.

Susie in chapter 1 can have such title:
"LV 1 Dark Knight. Does damage using Dark energy". This implies that Busters are form of energy. Thus Susie (and Gerson, who makes similar busters) should get energy manipulation fir being able to cast them. Additionally Susie and Gerson should get NPI (type: Energy) for being able to interact with Busters by reflecting them back.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

As simple as it can be, I agree. I'm not 100% on NPI, since it's a magic-y energy, but I don't see why not.

 

[Arceus0x]

Additionally Susie and Gaster

 

[GodlyCharmander]

He made the same typo 3 times, I think Gaster is taking over bro's keyboard

 

[Qurbonboev]

He made the same typo 3 times, I think Gaster is taking over bro's keyboard

Only two times.
Also, added one important clarification (what keys should get higher reactions)

 

[Imaginym]

This CRT is about Busters, something we love and cherish:
Susie (and Delta Warriors) should get: "higher attack speed via Busters"
Rude (and Red) Busters are considerably more faster than combat speed of opponents (to whom Gang scales to in speed). It's projectile fired from ~10 meters that no one, besides Gerson and Roaring Knight (notice how both have very substantial speed advantage over Gang) can reliably dodge or deal with.
Susie also would get higher reactions for being able to reflect back her own Busters that were redirected towards her by Gerson. Other Gang members (Kris, Ralsei and Noelle) should get it too, since game doesn't present different gang members as having significantly different in speed and reactions and such during battles together.
Question remains: should higher reactions apply only to chapter 4 Gang members, or to chapter 1-3 Gang too. Susie reflects back Busters only in chapter 4, so is there no special reason this would apply to chapter 1-3 keys, besides fact that there is no strong narrative reason for such increase in chapter 4.

Susie in chapter 1 can have such title:
"LV 1 Dark Knight. Does damage using Dark energy". This implies that Busters are form of energy. Thus Susie (and Gerson, who makes similar busters) should get energy manipulation fir being able to cast them. Additionally Susie and Gerson should get NPI (type: Energy) for being able to interact with Busters by reflecting them back.

So the premise is, based on the separation of Combat Speed, Attack Speed, & Reaction Speed, as well, as mostly unrelatedly, Travel Speed, you argue?:

Susie's Buster attacks are faster than the Delta Warriors, because no one has dodged/reacted to them other than The Old Man & The Roaring Knight.
Susie gets higher reactions because she can reflect back her Rude Busters The Old Man reflects to her while holding back because he wants to train her.
Other party members of the Delta Warriors, such as Kris, Ralsei & Noelle should scale to Susie's reactions for reflecting these reflected Rudy Busters?

Personally, IDK why it'd scale to previous chapter party members.

Also, could've sworn there was some mention of RBs being "Rude Energy" or something.

That said, I'm a bit busy, so I'll present my questions as above, & get back to this later. Apologies that I can't help this completely reach a conclusion just yet.

 

[Qurbonboev]

So the premise is, based on the separation of Combat Speed, Attack Speed, & Reaction Speed, as well, as mostly unrelatedly, Travel Speed, you argue?:

We by default differentiate between Combat & Attack & Reaction speeds. For most combatants they have same values (for example, fighter with Subsonic combat speed should be able to punch at subsonic speeds, and react to attacks at subsonic speed), but obviously there could be differences.

Susie's Buster attacks are faster than the Delta Warriors, because no one has dodged/reacted to them other than The Old Man & The Roaring Knight.
Susie gets higher reactions because she can reflect back her Rude Busters The Old Man reflects to her while holding back because he wants to train her.

Yes. Note that although Gerson holds back his strength in this fight (as evidenced by him decreasing damage when Susie health is low), he doesn't hold back his speed (his attacks doesn't became slower, when Susie hp is low, he still blitzes Susie when wants to, etc.). So it's unlikely that Busters that were reflected back by Gerson have lower speed.

Other party members of the Delta Warriors, such as Kris, Ralsei & Noelle should scale to Susie's reactions for reflecting these reflected Rudy Busters?

Personally, IDK why it'd scale to previous chapter party members.

Main arguments is that Gang members fight together with Susie, and keep up with her speedwise without much problems. If intent truly was that Susie has better reactions, it would have been noted in the game. Like how physical might of Susie compared to Ralsei and Kris is accentuated several times.
It's essentially same reasoning as this for example.

Personally, IDK why it'd scale to previous chapter party members.

Ok (in this case Noelle doesn't scale since fought only in chapter 2)

Also, could've sworn there was some mention of RBs being "Rude Energy" or something.

Whole fandom is under Mandela effect it seems.

That said, I'm a bit busy, so I'll present my questions as above, & get back to this later. Apologies that I can't help this completely reach a conclusion just yet.

Take your time

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Rude Buster

Rude Buster is a spell in Deltarune, usable by Susie. By default, it costs 50% TP in encounters, but this can be reduced to 40% if Devilsknife is equipped. It is an attack that inflicts moderately more damage than the standard FIGHT action. When using this spell, Susie launches a purple arrow...

deltarune.wiki

Flavor text:
Deals moderate Rude-elemental damage to one foe. Depends on Attack and Magic.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Seems fine.

 

[Imaginym]

Yes. Note that although Gerson holds back his strength in this fight (as evidenced by him decreasing damage when Susie health is low), he doesn't hold back his speed (his attacks doesn't became slower, when Susie hp is low, he still blitzes Susie when wants to, etc.). So it's unlikely that Busters that were reflected back by Gerson have lower speed.

We're arguing that Busters are faster than the Delta Warriors & others because no one aside from, notedly, The Roaring Knight & The Old Man, has been able to react to them. Ergo, the Busters have Attack Speed higher than the Delta Warriors own Attack/Combat Speed, so I guess via comparability to Susie, Delta Warriors & party members & others could scale in reactions.

Main arguments is that Gang members fight together with Susie, and keep up with her speedwise without much problems. If intent truly was that Susie has better reactions, it would have been noted in the game. Like how physical might of Susie compared to Ralsei and Kris is accentuated several times.

I guess technically there is the Chapter 1 battle where Kris & Ralsei battle Susie & Lancer, though using that as a basis for scaling their reactions would assume their reactions & the speed of the Busters haven't changed since then, or that the reactions & the speed of the Busters increased at the same rate since then.

Still, are there instances that directly demonstrate the party being able to react at the same rate? They often take actions in order according to turns & thus, separately, even if they do end up acting in coordination.
IIRC, there are the times Kris is thrown, but unless we assume they're moving at absurd speeds as a result of Susie initiating the throw somehow, Kris would be reacting to normal speed midair travel through their trajcectory, rather than Susie's speed in the instances of such throws.

It's essentially same reasoning as this for example.

I think I get what you mean. (Though I don't have knowledge about JJK.)

Ok (in this case Noelle doesn't scale since fought only in chapter 2)

AtM, I'd say it could be a Possibly or Likely, since we don't know about her status since Chapter 2, at least in regards to battling; She hasn't been a party member in a while. If she is comparable, it'd be comparable to Ch2 Rude Buster speed, presumably, since she hasn't reacted to Susie in battle, AFAIK, & that's assuming the speeds haven't changed. (I guess there is her being surprised when Susie busts the Werewires before the Ferris Wheel scene?)

Whole fandom is under Mandela effect it seems.

Rude Buster

Rude Buster is a spell in Deltarune, usable by Susie. By default, it costs 50% TP in encounters, but this can be reduced to 40% if Devilsknife is equipped. It is an attack that inflicts moderately more damage than the standard FIGHT action. When using this spell, Susie launches a purple arrow...

deltarune.wiki

Flavor text:
Deals moderate Rude-elemental damage to one foe. Depends on Attack and Magic.

I believe this much appreciated post gave clarification about what had been on my mind.

Take your time

Thank you very much.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Still, are there instances that directly demonstrate the party being able to react at the same rate?

In chapter 1, Gang react in same time to Jevil surprise attack. In chapter 4 Gang react in same timeframe to Titan energy beam, twice. I could try to find more examples, but I think it's enough to establish that they have similar reaction speed.

I guess technically there is the Chapter 1 battle where Kris & Ralsei battle Susie & Lancer, though using that as a basis for scaling their reactions would assume their reactions & the speed of the Busters haven't changed since then, or that the reactions & the speed of the Busters increased at the same rate since then.

Busters are faster than combat speed of opponents from the start of the game. But Susie doesn't use them in vs Susie fight, Kris and Ralsei doesn't dodge them, so they don't have some special reason to scale to them. In conclusion, only real reason previous keys would scale is that there is no strong narrative reason for them to have such increase in reaction speed.

AtM, I'd say it could be a Possibly or Likely, since we don't know about her status since Chapter 2, at least in regards to battling

If we don't give chapter 1-3 keys higher reactions, we shouldn't give this to Noelle either, even as possibly. If we give chapter 1-3 keys higher reactions, we should give it to Noelle too.

Thank you very much.

Opinion on the rest of CRT?

 

[Imaginym]

In chapter 1, Gang react in same time to Jevil surprise attack. In chapter 4 Gang react in same timeframe to Titan energy beam, twice. I could try to find more examples, but I think it's enough to establish that they have similar reaction speed.

Noted. Tentatively seems more acceptable with that in mind.

Busters are faster than combat speed of opponents from the start of the game.

I'd assume they'd be faster than fodder.

But Susie doesn't use them in vs Susie fight, Kris and Ralsei doesn't dodge them, so they don't have some special reason to scale to them. In conclusion, only real reason previous keys would scale is that there is no strong narrative reason for them to have such increase in reaction speed.

Point of mentioning Ch1 battle was it's an instance where the Delta Warriors could be argued as having comparable reactions from, I'd assumed.

If we don't give chapter 1-3 keys higher reactions, we shouldn't give this to Noelle either, even as possibly. If we give chapter 1-3 keys higher reactions, we should give it to Noelle too.

If the speed ratings haven't changed between 3 & 4, it might be fine.

Opinion on the rest of CRT?

Energy Manipulation seems okay.

Unsure about NPI (Energy), given Susie, IIRC, only reflects Busters with the same weapon she uses to project them from. But other than that, not much issue, but would be nice to know more opinions.
Though, since it's only with her own kind of energy so far, I'd assume it's only for that kind of energy, rather than any kind.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Noted. Tentatively seems more acceptable with that in mind.

To add:
Ralsei and Susie react simultaneously to Spamton Neo carts appearance.

I'd assume they'd be faster than fodder.

Like I said, nobody besides Knight and Gerson can dodge them. This list includes for example, Queen that has mobile chair, or Titan Spawns, who have shown to have similar speed to Gang.

If the speed ratings haven't changed between 3 & 4, it might be fine.

Combat speed ratings doesn't change from chapter to chapter.
So to recap:
Reason why we shouldn't give earlier keys(chapter 1-3) higher reaction speed:
- Susie feat of reflecting back Busters exists in only Chapter 4. We don't scale chapter 1-3 keys to Titan same way we scale chapter 4 Gang to it, and keep them at 8-A. And we don't give them abilities that they shown to have only in chapter 4. Why we should give leeway in this regard.
Reasons we should give earlier keys higher reactions:

• No strong narrative justifications for reaction speed increase
• We scale all keys to same value in combat speed

What is your final verdict on this?

Unsure about NPI (Energy), given Susie, IIRC, only reflects Busters with the same weapon she uses to project them from. But other than that, not much issue, but would be nice to know more opinions.
Though, since it's only with her own kind of energy so far, I'd assume it's only for that kind of energy, rather than any kind.

1. We can leave it as "can interact with Energy using her weapons".
2. I don't think we make such distinction. If character is shown to be able to interact with some kind of energy, we assume they can interact with other types of energy too, even if they don't make appearance in their home series

 

[God_of_perversion]

Agree with the speed rating and NPI